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Old 07-04-2022, 12:56 PM   #1
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THOR #13058
How to Incorporate Temperature Compensated Charging to further improve Battery Life

I have created this thread to see how one might achieve additional battery life
by monitoring Temperature given it does impact conventional battery charging and performance.

From what I have learned that only TempAssure & Renogy Solar Controllers along with some Power Centers come with the temperature probes needed.

In my case, I have Progressive Dynamics PD9200
https://www.progressivedyn.com/pd9200-converter/

While it does not come with an option to add a temperature probe, and I have no intentions of replacing my perfectly fine Charge Wizard; it does come with an option to allow me to add a Remote Pendant.

https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/ch...emote-pendant/

The Converter Status Remote Pendant shows the charger/converter operating mode and allows for manual mode selection effectively giving me will give me the power to manually adjust the charging state (rate).

So given the 4 charging modes, what would be a good rule of thumb range for me to watch out for to ensure my charger if on; will not be charging to high or too low?

Currently, the Progressive Dynamics Charge Wizard reads battery voltage and battery usage; then selects one of the following four operating modes to properly charge and maintain the battery.
BOOST Mode 14.4 Volts – Rapidly brings the RV battery up to 90% of full charge.
NORMAL Mode 13.6 Volts – Safely completes the charge.
STORAGE Mode 13.2 Volts – Maintains charge with minimal gassing or water loss.
EQUALIZATION Mode 14.4 Volts – Every 21 hours for a period of 15 minutes prevents battery stratification & sulfation – the leading cause of battery failure.

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Old 07-04-2022, 01:02 PM   #2
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I wish to add info for reference https://www.thorforums.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau388 View Post
I agree modification are a personal choice. I was trying to show that cheap fixed voltage chargers can harm batteries in rare cases. The points you make a valid. For all antimony alloyed flooded batteries here are Trojan's recommendations. As a side note, I went out to exercise the generator this afternoon the ambient 98 F and the sun was shinning on the right side of the coach, The temperature of the two batteries in the compartment was 118 F.

4. How much should I compensate the charge voltage for temperature?
  • Temperature will affect voltage readings. As temperature increases, voltage decreases. Conversely, as temperature decreases, voltage increases. Here are the relationships:
  • Trojan recommends using the following: For every 1 F below 77 F add 0.0028 volts per cell or for every 1 C below 25 C add 0.005 volts per cell to the charger voltage setting.
  • 1: A 12 volt battery @ 70 F. The recommended charging voltage at 77 F is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 + (6 cells * 7 degrees below * 0.0028) = 14.92 volts.
  • 2: A 12 volt battery @ 21 C. The recommended charging voltage at 25 C is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 + (6 cells * 4 degrees below * 0.005) = 14.92 volts.
  • For every 1 F above 77 F subtract 0.0028 volts per cell or for every 1 C above 25 C subtract 0.005 volts per cell to the charger voltage setting
  • 1: A 12 volt battery @ 85 F. The recommended charger voltage at 77 F is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 (6 cells * 8 degrees above * 0.0028) = 14.67 volts.
  • 2: A 12 volt battery @ 29.5 C. The recommended charger voltage at 25 C is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 (6 cells * 4.5 degrees above * 0.005) = 14.67 volts.
    • 5. Is there a maximum temperature for charging my batteries?
When charging lead acid batteries, the temperature should not exceed 120F. At this point the battery should be disconnected from all charging sources and loads in order to cool before resuming the charge process.
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Old 07-04-2022, 01:47 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
I agree modification are a personal choice. I was trying to show that cheap fixed voltage chargers can harm batteries in rare cases. The points you make a valid. For all antimony alloyed flooded batteries here are Trojan's recommendations. As a side note, I went out to exercise the generator this afternoon the ambient 98 F and the sun was shinning on the right side of the coach, The temperature of the two batteries in the compartment was 118 F.

4. How much should I compensate the charge voltage for temperature?
Temperature will affect voltage readings. As temperature increases, voltage decreases. Conversely, as temperature decreases, voltage increases. Here are the relationships:
Trojan recommends using the following: For every 1 F below 77 F add 0.0028 volts per cell or for every 1 C below 25 C add 0.005 volts per cell to the charger voltage setting.
1: A 12 volt battery @ 70 F. The recommended charging voltage at 77 F is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 + (6 cells * 7 degrees below * 0.0028) = 14.92 volts.
2: A 12 volt battery @ 21 C. The recommended charging voltage at 25 C is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 + (6 cells * 4 degrees below * 0.005) = 14.92 volts.
For every 1 F above 77 F subtract 0.0028 volts per cell or for every 1 C above 25 C subtract 0.005 volts per cell to the charger voltage setting
1: A 12 volt battery @ 85 F. The recommended charger voltage at 77 F is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 (6 cells * 8 degrees above * 0.0028) = 14.67 volts.
2: A 12 volt battery @ 29.5 C. The recommended charger voltage at 25 C is 14.8 volts. The adjusted charging voltage is 14.8 (6 cells * 4.5 degrees above * 0.005) = 14.67 volts.
5. Is there a maximum temperature for charging my batteries?
When charging lead acid batteries, the temperature should not exceed 120F. At this point the battery should be disconnected from all charging sources and loads in order to cool before resuming the charge process.

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So here is how I am interpreting what Trojan says and what my existing converter can do

Easy first ( max temp). If actual battery temperature exceeds 120F, then no charging should occur. So I can assume if ambient temperatures reaches 110F, then I can make sure the charger is OFF via no shorepower / generator, or flip the breaker for the converter.

Based on above, the concern appears to be around ensure voltage is not to high as temperature increases. It looks as if Trojan uses 14.8vdc as it it's boost voltage? In my case my max voltage is 14.4vdc so for all ambient temperatures less than 110, I never will have voltage too high.

77F seems to be point of distinction between being hot or cold for Trojan? I would love to see the actual algorithm used by temperature controlled chargers, because as I understand it, the colder it gets the more voltage is expected so I fail to follow or understand what would be the issue with the Storage, Normal or Boost charging stages when temperature of actual battery is under 77F?

What am I missing? Right now it seems like as long as ensure my battery is NOT charging when it is 120F I am good.
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Old 07-04-2022, 04:46 PM   #4
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My post was only to show the relationship for voltage and temperature for optimum charging and not to recommend a brand of charger or battery. While Trojan is a well know brand, they use an proprietary alloy paste (Alpha Plus) on the positive plate grid. It is still antimony strengthened but does increase the batteries internal resistance, so a higher voltage can be used in charging. This is especially important during the critical absorption stage, where the hydrogen ions are absorbed rather being out-gassed as hydrogen.



Another well known brand is East Penn (Deka). Here is their take on the temperature of lead-acid batteries.



Voltage is electrical pressure (energy per unit of charge).
Charge (ampere-hours) is a quantity of electricity. Current
(amperes) is electrical flow (charging speed). A battery can
only store a certain quantity of electricity. The closer it gets
to being fully charged, the slower it must be charged.
Temperature also affects charging. If the right voltage is used
for the temperature, a battery will accept charge at its ideal
rate. If too much voltage is used, charge will be forced
through the battery faster than it can be stored.

Reactions other than the charging reaction also occur to
transport this current through the battery—mainly gassing.
Hydrogen and oxygen may be given off faster than the
recombination reaction. .
Note: It is too much voltage that initiates this problem, not too
much charge — a battery can be “over-charged” (damaged
by too much voltage) even though it is not fully “charged.”
Never install any lead-acid battery in a sealed container
or enclosure. Hydrogen gas must be allowed to escape.

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Old 07-04-2022, 06:43 PM   #5
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I will give my battery Mfg for AGMs (vMax Tank) a call this week. I will see if I can get their take or recommendation on what is optimal voltage for any specific temperature. This may actually be a range. I assume the duration of the preferred charge still be determined by the battery's usage or lack thereof.

At the moment from what little research I have done, I don't see how my current PD2000 Charge Wizard could ever over apply any voltage unless the converter is running and battery is over 120F.

Let's say I am boondocking in the middle of the desert right next to the Duck's house with daytime ambient temperatures well above 110. I could simply adjust my Quiet time so the genny ensure my batteries are fully charged during periods it is not optimum to charge batteries, and if I must have my ACs running, I can simply turn off the Converter at the breaker.

At this time; I don't a significant gain or benefit when temperatures are cooler. Sounds like the more voltage the better and my unit max voltage is 14.4 volts. During cold nights if I had the Remote Pendant, I could ensure my charge is always sustained at 14.4vdc

FWIW; It is 101F ambient temperature where I am now, ACs are running and coach is at 80F inside, the batteries which are under the steps; but under a cooled floor is 97F

My converter is putting out only 13.6VDC before it knows the AGMs are well over 90% fully charged. Should it get hot enough where my batteries reach 120F, I agree it is not optimum to be charge batteries and I will stop that albeit manually.

This is akin to my Ryobi chargers. They will not start to charge if they detect excess heat from the battery pack. I just got lucky as they came that way from Ryobi.
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Old 07-05-2022, 04:53 AM   #6
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I looked up specifications on my AGM batteries made by vMax Tanks


SLR125 Nominal Voltage 20Hr Capacity

Recommended Charging Options:
AC Chargers: Any Quality Brand AGM- Smart & Microprocessor controlled- charger with the recommended specs above can be used.
Vehicle Alternator: 14V-15V.
RV Converter: 14V-15V.
Solar Panel: 175W-450W (120W may be used if Depth of Discharge would not exceed 50%).
Wind Turbine: 175W-450W.
Charge Controller: 20-UP.
* Warning: Do not use a charger with smaller amperage than the recommended Charging Current shown above.
Maintainers should ONLY be used to maintain a fully charged battery but NEVER as a charger.

Operating Temperature Range:

Discharge: -4~140F
Charge: 14~140F
Storage: -4~140F

Temperature Compensation:

Cycle use: -30mV/C
Standby use: -20mV/C
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Old 07-05-2022, 10:44 AM   #7
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DK..... I mentioned to you about the Renogy Charge Controllers having the option for a battery temperature probe and while your thread is geared to flooded, AGM and Gel batteries, LiFePO4 batteries are also impacted by temperature.

Here is some info that may be useful when you think about battery temperature for your batteries.

The BMS in LiFePO4's help prevent things like charging and discharging at temps that are too high... or too low.

You mentioned watching ambient temperature as it pertains to charging but you also have to remember that charging in and of itself creates heat..... especially when batteries have been deeply discharged.

The reason for the temperature sensor with some charge controllers is that it measures the actual battery temperature as a result both ambient air and the heat being generated by charging.

A good Charger is key to properly charging a battery based on a specific battery-type charging profile to prevent excess heat from being created.

In the case of my BigBattery LiFePO4 batteries, 131F is the upper temp limit. However, they caution that ambient temps over 90F can be bad when you factor in the heat generated from charging. The built-in BMS will stop charging once the internal battery temp hits 131F.

I installed my LiFePO4's inside the coach so if I am running the A/C on warm to hot sunny days, the temps inside should never reach 90F. But if for some reason my coach was sitting out and the A/C was not running, I would likely kill the shore power and turn off my Solar Controller as an additional safety precaution to prevent the batteries from charging if I felt the inside temp could reach 90F.
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Old 07-05-2022, 03:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
DK..... I mentioned to you about the Renogy Charge Controllers having the option for a battery temperature probe and while your thread is geared to flooded, AGM and Gel batteries, LiFePO4 batteries are also impacted by temperature.

Here is some info that may be useful when you think about battery temperature for your batteries.

The BMS in LiFePO4's help prevent things like charging and discharging at temps that are too high... or too low.

You mentioned watching ambient temperature as it pertains to charging but you also have to remember that charging in and of itself creates heat..... especially when batteries have been deeply discharged.

The reason for the temperature sensor with some charge controllers is that it measures the actual battery temperature as a result both ambient air and the heat being generated by charging.

A good Charger is key to properly charging a battery based on a specific battery-type charging profile to prevent excess heat from being created.

In the case of my BigBattery LiFePO4 batteries, 131F is the upper temp limit. However, they caution that ambient temps over 90F can be bad when you factor in the heat generated from charging. The built-in BMS will stop charging once the internal battery temp hits 131F.

I installed my LiFePO4's inside the coach so if I am running the A/C on warm to hot sunny days, the temps inside should never reach 90F. But if for some reason my coach was sitting out and the A/C was not running, I would likely kill the shore power and turn off my Solar Controller as an additional safety precaution to prevent the batteries from charging if I felt the inside temp could reach 90F.
Duly noted , my batteries cycle quite a bit but have never been below 12.5vdc. I would actually raise that higher (12.6vdc) if my EC-30 AGS would allow a higher Auto Start setting. Contrary to what some Lithium owners goals are; I struggle to use my generator more. I have a target of 100 hours / year to use; but thus far I have only been able to get 75 / hours per year.

The reason why this topic has intrigued me so much, is that I was thing that the Progressive Dymanics 9200 with Inteli Charge Wizard with it's elaborate 4 Stage algorithm what about all anyone would ever need? Just trying to size up if Temperature Compensation will have any relevant impact on batteries that are designed to last 8 - 10 years based on number of cycles?
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Old 07-05-2022, 04:11 PM   #9
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I just spoke with my battery Mfg vMax Tanks.

I have the AGM SLR 125s https://www.vmaxtanks.com/SLR125-12V...tery_p_38.html

Batteries are in made in USA and they are located in Michigan.

They state that unless you live in extreme cold conditions or very hot conditions these vMax tanks are designed to operated and be charged in to temperatures down to 14F or as high as as 140F.

As I will never sniff 140F, I can always say that if / when I see temperatures at 120F, I can stop the charging at my leisure as to not even come close to the limit. While the Support Engineer agreed with that premise he did not agree with say a 20F cutoff at lower temperatures, because he sated it was best to keep cold batteries on charger. However, should it reach 14F, I should cutoff charging.

In 3 1/2 years I may have gone outside the range 14F - 120F once ( Texas freeze ) But here is where lady luck comes in, while I was plugged in and the converter should have been on.... we had no power due to outage so converter did not run when it hit that temperature. We ran portable generator to feed the house. Now in future, we will run the Onan 5500 to feed the house. The furnace will be on so even though freezing outside the batteries would be at least 10 degrees warmer under floor.

So the conclusion, vMax Tanks didn't see a value in my case for battery a need for Temperature Compensation. But they advise that if I had a system that did use a probe, I would need to enter -30mv C into the Temp Compensation program. I may still try to call Progressive Dynamics just to get their take.
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Old 07-05-2022, 06:20 PM   #10
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I just received a return call from Progressive Dynamics.

They state that none of their converters or power systems have the temperature probes. They seem to kind of echo what vMax tanks was stating was that temperature compensation is generally not required unless in extreme conditions being very cold or very hot. They state that if 14F outside, the actual battery temperature will be warmer. They state that in extreme cold conditions the battery should be disconnected or charge off, but before doing so, the battery should be fully charged. Since I am always at at least 12.5 volts , my battery is never discharged. He all but eliminated any issues with the battery actual temperature being too hot ( this is given you are already using the Inteli Charge Wizard).

He concluded by telling me that I didn't need the optional Progressive Dynamic Remote pendant to manually change the charge program, nor a temperature probe to compensate for actual battery temperature.

He further elaborated that essentially all of the companies in the space short 1 or 2 do not offer temperature probes.

In light of the above; unless I am missing some critical need to know information, I am concluding that my batteries are being maximumly maintained with the PD2200 Series Inteli Charge Wizard

I will simply ensure that if battery temp is known to drop below 14F, ensure the battery is fully charged before shutting off converter or disconnecting the battery cables.
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Old 07-06-2022, 02:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
I just received a return call from Progressive Dynamics.

They state that none of their converters or power systems have the temperature probes. They seem to kind of echo what vMax tanks was stating was that temperature compensation is generally not required unless in extreme conditions being very cold or very hot. They state that if 14F outside, the actual battery temperature will be warmer. They state that in extreme cold conditions the battery should be disconnected or charge off, but before doing so, the battery should be fully charged. Since I am always at at least 12.5 volts , my battery is never discharged. He all but eliminated any issues with the battery actual temperature being too hot ( this is given you are already using the Inteli Charge Wizard).

He concluded by telling me that I didn't need the optional Progressive Dynamic Remote pendant to manually change the charge program, nor a temperature probe to compensate for actual battery temperature.

He further elaborated that essentially all of the companies in the space short 1 or 2 do not offer temperature probes.

In light of the above; unless I am missing some critical need to know information, I am concluding that my batteries are being maximumly maintained with the PD2200 Series Inteli Charge Wizard

I will simply ensure that if battery temp is known to drop below 14F, ensure the battery is fully charged before shutting off converter or disconnecting the battery cables.
I would concur with you and the feedback you have been given.

It does come down to having a very good charger (whether in the RV or in the shop). A good quality charger will prevent a battery from generating too much heat during charging. I have always thought Progressive Dynamics was in that category.

I think the reason there are temperature sensors with some of the Solar Charge Controllers is that solar is challenging. With an AC charger, you have a constant input of power so the charger can more easily regulate its charging.

With Solar, you have a lot more going on. Sun and weather conditions are not constant so the amount of power going into the controller is variable. I'm just guessing but I think the temperature sensor may be a added protection with real-time temperature feedback going back to the charge controller to make sure it is providing the best charging parameters and batteries do not over-charge.... as detected by temperature.
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