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Old 04-08-2020, 01:02 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jdb View Post
I’d like to know if any of us has added an indicator light to the Store/Use circuit that will indicate when the solenoid is in “Use”. If so, please let me know how to do this.
Dave
It was mentioned before, if you turn "on" the ceiling lights, then turn the switch to Store (from Use), the ceiling lights should go "off" and visa versa... THERE is your indicator.
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Old 04-08-2020, 01:16 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by OldWEB View Post
It was mentioned before, if you turn "on" the ceiling lights, then turn the switch to Store (from Use), the ceiling lights should go "off" and visa versa... THERE is your indicator.
That only works if you have no AC power.
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Old 04-08-2020, 01:40 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
That only works if you have no AC power.
Exactly - the AC power is the key

When there is AC power, the Use/Store light is always on, and provides no indication of the status of the latching relay. This is my point in trying to figure a way to add an indicator of the latching relay status

Dave
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Old 04-08-2020, 01:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by OldWEB View Post
It was mentioned before, if you turn "on" the ceiling lights, then turn the switch to Store (from Use), the ceiling lights should go "off" and visa versa... THERE is your indicator.
Unless you have an automated system such as Vega Touch. Turning Master Power off turns everything except steps off so a ceiling light will not be an indicator for a newer firefly system. Everything is still off when Master Power is turned back on.
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Old 04-08-2020, 02:10 AM   #25
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Before I bought my coach last November, this was one thing that I read from a lot of Thor owners that were either confused by, or did not like the way the Use/Store functionality works. I took great care with my SOP notes; so I would be ready ....... but I bought SOB (Winnebago)

Regardless, I had pre purchased a 12Vdc adapter with Red LED digital readout that shows voltage on house batteries up front in Cab area on a Cigarette plug socket; so I can see voltage at all times. When Genset is running or shore power connected it is always 13+ volts. I can verify or see the same on the AGS Ec-30 panel as it will tell me the voltage for House & Chassis. If AGS is enabled, shore power is disconnected, and voltage drops to 12.4 or lower the generator will start and charging begins.

But here is my favorite part. The Green LED on the Use / Store rocker is a true Chassis disconnect switch. So when it is off the House batteries are shut down even if driving the RV. I know this because one day while driving my phone was not charging and the 12vdc LED digital plug readout in Cab area was not on. I assumed I had wiring issue only to learn that my Use/Store switch was off. Green light on means 12VDC is available for use; if you have no Shore or Generator running. If I have Shore or Generator it is always charging and I can see by the digital LED readout in front of coach, or by looking at Energy Management System on the wall that confirms power source and amperage available.

So if OP is just really persistent, could he not simply hard wire the existing Thor Use Store Switch to always be on so no chance for it to be turned off by mistake? and then add a new true battery disconnect switch to shut down any and all parasitic drain to house batteries? Optionally; buy a 12 Vdc Digital plug socket as a bonus? All of this is less than $50 bucks.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Dual-3-...LPki3rdtdySk6A
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Old 04-08-2020, 02:20 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
Before I bought my coach last November, this was one thing that I read from a lot of Thor owners that were either confused by, or did not like the way the Use/Store functionality works. I took great care with my SOP notes; so I would be ready ....... but I bought SOB (Winnebago)

Regardless, I had pre purchased a 12Vdc adapter with Red LED digital readout that shows voltage on house batteries up front in Cab area on a Cigarette plug socket; so I can see voltage at all times. When Genset is running or shore power connected it is always 13+ volts. I can verify or see the same on the AGS Ec-30 panel as it will tell me the voltage for House & Chassis. If AGS is enabled, shore power is disconnected, and voltage drops to 12.4 or lower the generator will start and charging begins.

But here is my favorite part. The Green LED on the Use / Store rocker is a true Chassis disconnect switch. So when it is off the House batteries are shut down even if driving the RV. I know this because one day while driving my phone was not charging and the 12vdc LED digital plug readout in Cab area was not on. I assumed I had wiring issue only to learn that my Use/Store switch was off. Green light on means 12VDC is available for use; if you have no Shore or Generator running. If I have Shore or Generator it is always charging and I can see by the digital LED readout in front of coach, or by looking at Energy Management System on the wall that confirms power source and amperage available.

So if OP is just really persistent, could he not simply hard wire the existing Thor Use Store Switch to always be on so no chance for it to be turned off by mistake? and then add a new true battery disconnect switch to shut down any and all parasitic drain to house batteries? Optionally; buy a 12 Vdc Digital plug socket as a bonus? All of this is less than $50 bucks.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Dual-3-...LPki3rdtdySk6A
Rewiring the switch is a recipe for disaster as it is a DPDT momentary contact normally open switch which just changes the position of the latching relay. You would need to bypass the latching relay to always keep the batteries connected to the 12 VDC buss.
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Old 04-08-2020, 03:14 AM   #27
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Now, if you follow the way Intellitec wants it wired, then the LED is "on" when the relay is closed and "off" when open. So if "off" then there should be no voltage on the system side of the relay... if there is voltage, the light will be "on" and I suspect a backfeed, wiring error, or something strange that Thor did. Follow their schematic.
The indicating light on the schematic is lit anytime there is 12 VDC applied to the "SYSTEM" side of that relay. The green wire is connected directly to the SYSTEM stud through a fuse. This only indicates the position of the relay when the battery is the only source of power in the boat or RV. Thor latching relays are wired correct per this diagram.
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Old 04-08-2020, 04:00 AM   #28
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I feel like the one with the pointy hair....
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:35 AM   #29
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So, the Use/Store light does not indicate whether the relay is latched/unlatched, it indicates 12VDC power to the System terminal. This works fine when there is no 120VAC to the coach. But when I have 120VAC on, it adds the 12VDC to the system side via the converter, and the Use/Store light stays on - doesn’t matter if the relay is latched or unlatched.

What I’m really looking for is a light to indicate continuity when the relay is latched. I’m gonna try something today, and will let you all know

Dave
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Old 04-10-2020, 04:39 PM   #30
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My solution!

I figured this out, and am very happy with the solution!

I moved the converter’s positive output from the 12V fuse block to the power in side of the latching relay. I added a length of 4 gauge wire to extend to the latching relay.

This has everything working as I think it should. The Use/Store switch light is on only when the relay is latched - regardless of 120VAC connected or not. When the relay is unlatched the light is off. Also now, when 120VAC is connected, I can use the Use/Store switch to disconnect all 12VDC consumption - yet still have battery charging working. So, whenever I have 120VAC connected the batteries are charging.

I’m not getting any unexpected battery drain, or other issues. My monitor shows what I expected.

The four pics below show my meter (temporary install) monitoring the coach batteries:
Pic 1 is 12VDC only with relay unlatched
Pic 2 is 12VDC only with relay latched and cabin lights on
Pic 3 is 120VAC with relay unlatched (charging working)
Pic 4 is 120VAC with relay latched (charging working)

Dave
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Old 04-10-2020, 05:39 PM   #31
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Fine work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdb View Post
I figured this out, and am very happy with the solution!

I moved the converter’s positive output from the 12V fuse block to the power in side of the latching relay. I added a length of 4 gauge wire to extend to the latching relay.

This has everything working as I think it should. The Use/Store switch light is on only when the relay is latched - regardless of 120VAC connected or not. When the relay is unlatched the light is off. Also now, when 120VAC is connected, I can use the Use/Store switch to disconnect all 12VDC consumption - yet still have battery charging working. So, whenever I have 120VAC connected the batteries are charging.

I’m not getting any unexpected battery drain, or other issues. My monitor shows what I expected.

The four pics below show my meter (temporary install) monitoring the coach batteries:
Pic 1 is 12VDC only with relay unlatched
Pic 2 is 12VDC only with relay latched and cabin lights on
Pic 3 is 120VAC with relay unlatched (charging working)
Pic 4 is 120VAC with relay latched (charging working)

Dave
Good job! I know I am happy with the system working this way. There is the issue with a tiny parasitic drain of the converter, but a battery disconnect switch would cure that.
Now to work on turning your images!
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Old 04-10-2020, 06:02 PM   #32
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Yeah I gotta figure out the picture orientation. The .02 amp drain showing is due to the meter not the converter. I’m order to measure DC current you have to have some load, so the meter induces that. I’m going to install another meter with leads reversed so I can track the charging current, and do the same for the chassis batteries -then build a nice housing with an on/off switch for all the meters

Dave
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Old 04-10-2020, 08:55 PM   #33
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Which side of the relay is the amp reading from?
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Old 04-10-2020, 09:24 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jdb View Post
Thanks all
This discussion is helping me identify my real goal, which is to have an indicator light that is “on” when the latching relay has the coach batteries tied to the converter, when on shore power or generator. Without that light it’s not possible to know if the converter will be charging the batteries. I have volt meters installed for all my batteries, so I can monitor their voltage at all times, but that doesn’t tell me if the converter is going to charge them when they are less than fully charged

Dave
Turn off your Converter. or Inverter/charger. Turn on a 12 volt light. If it lights the relay is ON. If the 12 volt system doesn't work it is OFF. Mark the switch to indicate on and off. If it is a momentary switch this won't work.

But turning off the converter will work every time. No lights, no battery connection.

Another method is to hook an indicator light on the load side of the relay.
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Old 04-10-2020, 09:24 PM   #35
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The meter is run directly from the coach batteries. There is a 100amp shunt between the negative battery terminal and the cable going to ground. So this ensures that I’m picking up every bit of current usage.

More specifically, the meter is on the power side of the relay, not the load side

Dave
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Old 04-10-2020, 09:38 PM   #36
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Vegas 24.1 uses a momentary switch. And once the 120VAC is connected, the indicator light was always on, so I had no straightforward way to know if the relay was latched or not. That is why I came up with my modification.

Sure, I could always shut down the 120VAC, and then see if the relay was latched by looking at the switch light, and then adjust the momentary switch if needed to ensure the relay is latched. That would then ensure that batteries are
Being charged. I could do that every time - or modify the system or once to have it work properly going forward

Dave
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Old 04-10-2020, 11:15 PM   #37
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Brilliant:. moved the converter’s positive output from the 12V fuse block to the power in side of the latching relay. I added a length of 4 gauge wire to extend to the latching relay.
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Old 04-19-2020, 02:27 AM   #38
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I got tired of accidentally pressing the use/store switch only to find out later when nothing would work.
I drilled two tiny holes opposite each other horizontally across the switch and added a small cotter pin and bent over the legs.
Now no more turning it to "store" by accident.
Never used it or wanted to anyway.
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Old 04-20-2020, 02:46 AM   #39
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I've been bitten by this nonsense twice in the three months I've owned the RV. That isolation relay makes the same damn "kerchunk" sound whether you're turning it on or off so this looks like a great fix. Last time the house battery was so dead I couldn't even trigger the isolation relay without a portable jumper pack on it.

Just to clarify using this picture of the wiring I found elsewhere, you removed the red wire from the +VCC terminal (second one from the top) and extended it to the battery-side of the isolation relay so it's always wired directly to the battery?
As a result there's now nothing connected to the +VCC terminal so the fuse block only gets power via the black cable connected to the POS terminal at the bottom from the house-side of the isolation relay and none of the 12V circuits work unless the relay is engaged?
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Old 04-20-2020, 11:58 AM   #40
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Yes you have it correct.

Use caution on this - disconnect the negative lead from your coach batteries before moving forward, and disconnect all 120VAC inputs.

I rerouted the red positive cable from the converter through the back of the converter / fuse hosing. That cable is only about 8” long, so I bought a 6 gauge battery cable with 3/8” terminal end to fasten to the battery in side of the relay. I cut off the lead battery terminal end, stripped about 3/4” inch of the covering and fastened together with the positive lead from the converter. Reconnect your negative coach batteries

Done!
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