Lithium Upgrade 2022 sequence

[Thirdage2009]

Has anyone considered upgrading their existing AGM battery to a LifePo4 battery? I have a 2022 Thor Sequence 20A with a Onan 2800i generator set and a Trojan 100a AGM battery.

With my current setup, I am not able to run my fridge (everything else turned off except bmpro and Winnegard) for longer than 7 hours without the voltage dropping so low that my generator will no longer fire up.

I am thinking about upgrading my system to lithium by swapping in a Battle Born or Enduro lifepo4 100a battery, swapping in a wf8955 auto detect converter charger and a charge solenoid. Total cost including labor by LaMesa would be approximately $2,300.

Questions:
1) Has anyone with an existing 100a AGM battery setup experienced such a limited battery life that it can't keep a fridge on low setting going for more than 7 hours?
2) What kind of performance can I expect from a 100a Lifepo4 battery? Will it run my fridge and maybe allow me to run my led coach lights and do some TV watching?
3) Does the lithium upgrade described above sound like it will work? Do I have all my bases covered?
4) Any Pros and Cons or suggestions on this idea from your experience?

Thanks.

[howzball]

The one thing I can offer is that you might not really even need to spend the money for the Battleborns as there are quite a few decent options out there now for a lot less money.
Chins have a 12v 100aH version now that have the working cold temperature disconnect If that's even an issue for you and those are a few hundred dollars less per battery for the exact same output. If cold weather isn't an issue you can get that version for $400 per battery but no low temp cutoff.

Almost any 12v lithium you go with is going to out perform a lead acid or AGM battery setup. It's just the nature of the lithium. You'll see voltage drop starting at the 50% SOC on lead acid whereas Lithium can go down to 20% SOC before you see any voltage drop. Nearly every 100 Ah lithium battery is rated for 100 Ah and nothing less.
If you really want to get your head around all of it look up Will Prowse's YT channel, he tests all these cheaper lithium batteries and tells you which are worth the money.

[ducksface]

Battleborn is now midfield for performance and top tier pricing.
Do a 200a battery while you're Doing it all.

If the 100a Lithium doubles(not quite) the run time, you'll still have only 14hours till failure with just the fridge. 200a lithium give you 24hours and some tv and lights.....

That's a lot of money outlay just to keep a fridge running.
I am better understanding the value of propane.....

[Judge]

First, you should seriously look at BigBattery. You can get a single 170Ah battery for $899 or a 228Ah for $1399 (with free shipping and no tax). I have four of them in my 2020 Magnitude Sv34 and they work very well. It's the best dollar per Ah you will find with a high quality battery.

They have a 10-year warranty... they supply the cable.... it has a BMS... and it has it's own On/Off Switch. I'm very happy with mine.

https://bigbattery.com/promotion/


Let me try to answer your questions based on my LiFePO4 experience.

Questions:

1) Has anyone with an existing 100a AGM battery setup experienced such a limited battery life that it can't keep a fridge on low setting going for more than 7 hours?

A lead acid battery can really only be used down to 50% of its capacity so you are looking at 50Ah of useful charge. Depending on the power usage of your fridge plus whether it was fully cooled down on shore power first...... plua anything else pulling power, that could very will be all you can get (assuming the battery is in good condition... not a given based on what happens at dealer lots).

2) What kind of performance can I expect from a 100a Lifepo4 battery? Will it run my fridge and maybe allow me to run my led coach lights and do some TV watching?

We need some data on the power you will be drawing. What fridge do you have and what are the power specs? How about the TV specs and how many hours will you use it? How long do you want to run without shore or generator power? Will you have solar?

But the bottom line is that LiFePO4 batteries will allow you to run down to at least 20% DoD without damaging the batteries and with better performance.

I do think think the BigBattery 170Ah will probably do what you need and certainly the 228Ah would be more than enough.

3) Does the lithium upgrade described above sound like it will work? Do I have all my bases covered?

I use a Progressive Dynamics Converter / Charger that is specific for lithium batteries. I looked at the WFCO 8955 quickly but I did not see it specifically reference that is designed to charge LiFePO4 batteries so you want to check that is can handle them properly.

Not sure if by charge solenoid you mean a BIM (battery isolation manager) like a LI-BIM225 that will allow your alternator to charge your house batteries. If so, you do want to make sure it is design to handle lithium batteries like the LI-BIM225 from Precision Industries.

4) Any Pros and Cons or suggestions on this idea from your experience?

It is not a difficult upgrade. You could probably do it yourself if you have general knowledge, skills and tools. If you only want to install one battery, you could probably do it for under $1500.

[galOnTheGo]

ditto what Judge stated about the BIM (battery isolation manager), you need to have a lithium compatible unit. and, I went with renogy and have been very happy with them. 2 x 100a. also, with my batteries I installed a monitor that tells me what the state of charge is, current level, capacity, charge or discharge rate. I find the monitor very handy, wouldn't want to be without it. the renogy has a built in temp sensor that will protect the battery in cold weather.

and, my fridge runs off propane unless connected to shore, and running off propane uses almost no battery. am I missing something?

[DavidEM]

A smallish 8-10 cu ft DC fridge will pull 5 amps DC while running and if it is running 50% of the time could definitely run down a single lead acid battery overnight.

But before jumping into lithium batteries, which definitely requires a new charger part of the converter, may also need a DC to DC charger to keep from drawing too much current from the alternator while running the chassis engine, consider adding a second AGM battery. If you can find a place reasonably close to the first one, just run large cable, about #2 between the two batteries.

Another thing you can do is to turn off the fridge when you go to bed, then when you wake up and start the generator and have plenty of power, turn the fridge back on. Yes it will run continuously for a several hours but you have the generator to keep up.

How do you like the Onan 2800i. Is it as efficient and quiet as reported?


And finally the WFCO 8955 is NOT suitable for charging lithium batteries. I had one and it would barely charge my AGM batteries. There is no switch to select the type of battery with WFCO, something that charger manufacturers have been doing for 20 years. Progressive Dynamics has a drop in replacement for the charger portion that are lithium specific if you go with lithiums.

But if you stay with AGMs and double up, change out the WFCO for a PD charger that will work with AGMs.

David

[Thirdage2009]

Thank you all for your input. I took much of your advice and an going with 2 weize 100ah batteries, and a wf8955 ad and the solenoid.

I should have it all installed and ready to go in a couple weeks.

I'll report back after I've given it a test outing.

BTW. You guys are great !

[Thirdage2009]

Hi. What battery monitor did you install and was it difficult to put in?.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Thirdage2009

Thank you all for your input. I took much of your advice and an going with 2 weize 100ah batteries, and a wf8955 ad and the solenoid.

I should have it all installed and ready to go in a couple weeks.

I'll report back after I've given it a test outing.

BTW. You guys are great !

Didn't you read a few us told you the WF8955 is not designed to charge LiFePO4 batteries????

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Thirdage2009

Thank you all for your input. I took much of your advice and an going with 2 weize 100ah batteries, and a wf8955 ad and the solenoid.

I should have it all installed and ready to go in a couple weeks.

I'll report back after I've given it a test outing.

BTW. You guys are great !

Or... for the same price Judge points for the $170ah Li battery you can buy 3 x 110ah Vmax Tank XTR27 AGMs if you have space and no need to change the converter, BIM, install a DC/DC converter/charger....

By the end it is around ~30ah more useful ah for less work and less $.

I considered Lithium early this year and based on our use decided on the Vmax.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Thirdage2009

Hi. What battery monitor did you install and was it difficult to put in?.

My second rig with Victron 700 series and it works really well.
Worst part for me was to run the cable from the battery bay to the location where I installed the monitor.
You don't need to do that (run the cable and physically install the monitor in the wall) if you use model 712 which is wireless and you can track with your phone.

[Thirdage2009]

Yes I did. Please check out the new wf8955ad MBA on the WFco website. It's an auto detect with a two stage lithium charge profile that seems to be what prowse and Battleborn CEO seems to like.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Thirdage2009

Yes I did. Please check out the new wf8955ad MBA on the WFco website. It's an auto detect with a two stage lithium charge profile that seems to be what prowse and Battleborn CEO seems to like.

Ok…. I must have read some specs for an earlier model.

Good luck!

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by Judge

Didn't you read a few us told you the WF8955 is not designed to charge LiFePO4 batteries????

It's funny this is what the manufacture says, Power Centers and Converters

Use any existing WFCO power center or converter to safely charge your lithium batteries. Our standard products will charge your lithium-ion battery, without damage or excessive heat so you will not have to worry about where your power supply will be coming from. The following products are lithium-ion compatible:

Then why on their website do the sell lithium converters with a switch for lithium or lead acid

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by Bill Johnson

It's funny this is what the manufacture says, Power Centers and Converters

Use any existing WFCO power center or converter to safely charge your lithium batteries. Our standard products will charge your lithium-ion battery, without damage or excessive heat so you will not have to worry about where your power supply will be coming from. The following products are lithium-ion compatible:

Then why on their website do the sell lithium converters with a switch for lithium or lead acid

We has that same discussion in 2017. Battle Born stated, their battery management system (BMS) works fine with any standard three stage converter for FLA or VRLA batteries and would charge the batteries to a charge lever of about 90%. The catch was the BMS would not equalize the batteries (needs 14.2 to 14.6 volts after 98% charge) and the 90% charge level would be obtained in about twice the time when compared to a dedicated Lithium Iron Phosphate battery charger.


FLA batteries require at least a three mode charger (Bulk, assortative and float). The assortative stage being the most critical, as that is where the hydrogen gas is reabsorbed into the acid. Otherwise, it is vented causing corrosion, loss of water, overheating and the possibility of an explosive gas being vented. Lithium has no need for the critical assortative stage, so the bulk stage is kept at 14.4 to 14.6 volts until the battery charging current drops to less than 0.10 amp indicating the battery is fully charge and the charger switches to the standard float charge of 13.1 to 13.6 volts.

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by Beau388

We has that same discussion in 2017. Battle Born stated, their battery management system (BMS) works fine with any standard three mode converter for FLA or VRLA batteries and would charge the batteries to a charge lever of about 90%. The catch was the BMS would not equalize the batteries (needs 14.2 to 14.6 volts after 98% charge) and the 90% charge level would be obtained in about twice the time than a dedicated Lithium Iron Phosphate battery charger.

Right, I don't know how many people were told that the converter would work but it doesn't

[Thirdage2009]

Here are some references regarding the lithium compatible converter charger by WFO. Crossing my fingers that it will work.


https://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8900-ad-series-mba/

https://youtu.be/oEutPVI-2R8

[Uncle Jim]

Well, let me tell you the problem I am having with what you are considering. I am trying to put a DC to DC charger in between the chassis engine alternator and the lipo battery. The existing line runs through the radio and back up cameras. This charger is not constantly connected to the system like a lead acid or others agm that you mentioned. Hence, one the battery is fully charged, it shuts off, shutting down your radio and cameras. Those systems still work while plugged in or off of generator, but not off of chassis only.

Any thoughts?

[lmichel]

I moved to Lion Energy batteries. 4 X 105Ah and two separate sets of solar panels. I have an Outlaw 37RB, so I put 5 X 150w on the roof and a second "deployable set" of 4x150w on the inside of the back gate for when it's not very sunny, for some reason I cant park facing north, or just want to run the AC on battery.

FWIW - I decided to install it completely separate from what is already there. In other words, I have the two arrays, a separate (2nd) inverter and a solar charger for each array set. Then I moved some of the outlet runs, the microwave and the fridge to the new inverter. I also have the ability to disconnect the existing AGMs and connect the lithiums to the original inverter, just in case...

Why in the world would I do this? Two reasons. 1) I wanted to leave the lithiums isolated from the alternator. I didn't even want to deal with it, and solar allowed me to do that anyway. 2) My Onan 7500 has NEVER worked since new and it has been in the shop 4 times. I gave up. In fact, I plan to rip it out since it is dead weight to me. Damned thing has less than 100hr on it. I even offered (and it still stands) $250 to the person that can finally resolve its issue. Two authorized Onan RV service centers said they fixed it, but the problem was back in less than a day.

I'm happy to share any upgrade data, etc if it's useful. Just ask

[holtcg]

Just a note about generator starting. If you go with a single 100ah (100amp) battery or even a 200ah (100amp) battery, vs 2 or more in series, you may have trouble starting your generator off the batteries alone. These batteries have a capacity rating in Amp Hours (ah) but the Battery Management System (BMS) determines the current output. I swapped a single 100ah battery in to replace my flooded battery and found that I could often not start the (diesel) generator without starting the engine.
I've purchased, but not yet installed 2 Renogy 100ah smart lithium batteries and will run them in parallel to get 200 amps continuous and probably 400 short term. This will allow a lot of capacity and the short term current to get that genny rolling when it comes to it.
There are other reasons I went with the Renogy smart batteries. First is that they are Group 24 size and two will fit under the step (battery tray is about 24 inches long) Many of these LiFePo4 batteries are 13 inches and wouldn't fit. Also Renogy smart batteries have ethernet ports on them. These two batteries can be connected together to keep them balanced, and Renogy sells an inexpensive monitor panel that can be hooked to the last battery and monitor them all. Voltage, State of Charge and current. They also have a storage mode for very low self discharge and you can initiate that with the included "pigtail" button, or from the connected monitor panel. (if you have solar, make sure and disconnect your panels before disconnecting the battery or putting it in storage mode)
Just thought I'd share my personal experience since you mentioned starting the generator.