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08-02-2021, 01:24 AM
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#41
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Senior Member
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 6,187
THOR #2121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburns884
Got it and thanks.
I do understand the hybrid designation is a different matter. I want to be able to draw power to the inverter from multiple sources at the same time - one of my goals is running both AC’s if forced down to 30 amp in the summer. I believe the “hybrid” inverter will allow me to tap into stores energy if necessary to add a few amps when needed.
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Correct. Depending on size (capacity) you can get much more than just a few extra Amps, provided the entire system is designed to handle more than 30 Amps continuously. It would be a nice feature if trying to power 2 air conditioners and NOT wanting to shed one off for a few minutes while powering something else like a microwave or coffee maker. The entire system may add a lot of cost if that’s the main goal which can be accomplished by turning off one A/C for just a few minutes. I suppose that if starting out with a 50A motorhome it may not add nearly as much cost.
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08-04-2021, 04:25 PM
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#42
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Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 29M
State: Arkansas
Posts: 57
THOR #20830
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...
So here is what I have decided to go with, and the cost/source of each:
1) For batteries, I went with 2 of the the Big Battery 170ah lithium batteries. I decided to hold at 2 because I can use my existing battery compartment. Total cost (including the parallel cable) was $1881.80. The price is too good to pass up, and I saw several positive reviews. They may not be as well known as battle born, but for the price difference I am going to take the chance.
2) I also picked up the Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor from Amazon for $226.69. Probably could have saved some $$$ here, but I like that I can monitor from my cabin ipad that I use to run the firefly system and a few other things. Having that info at my fingertips is worth the $$$ to me.
3) I am going to leave my 1000W factory installed inverter in place for now. I would like to upgrade the inverter, but the budget says no. That will be a next year project.
4) The batteries would work with my existing factory converter, but I would run into an issue of not getting full charges. For that reason I am ordering the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power RV Converter and Battery Charger - Lithium - 12V - 60 Amps, Total price $224.12. I would have bought all of this from etrailer had it been available. They are great to work with.
5) I also have ordered a BUSBAR for power distribution since the Big Battery 170's will not have terminals. $20
TOTAL COST (so far) FOR THE 340 AMP HOUR BANK: $2,241
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I am still debating ordering a battery isolation manager. I think at 340ah it would be a wise investment. Any thoughts on the need for that. Anything I might be missing in the above?
My son and I are going to do the install. We will book 2 weekends for it and go very slowly. I have some experience with DC power, but still rookie enough to know I don't know enough.
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08-04-2021, 05:03 PM
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#43
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2020 Magnitude SV34
State: Florida
Posts: 4,139
THOR #12751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburns884
So here is what I have decided to go with, and the cost/source of each:
1) For batteries, I went with 2 of the the Big Battery 170ah lithium batteries. I decided to hold at 2 because I can use my existing battery compartment. Total cost (including the parallel cable) was $1881.80. The price is too good to pass up, and I saw several positive reviews. They may not be as well known as battle born, but for the price difference I am going to take the chance.
2) I also picked up the Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor from Amazon for $226.69. Probably could have saved some $$$ here, but I like that I can monitor from my cabin ipad that I use to run the firefly system and a few other things. Having that info at my fingertips is worth the $$$ to me.
3) I am going to leave my 1000W factory installed inverter in place for now. I would like to upgrade the inverter, but the budget says no. That will be a next year project.
4) The batteries would work with my existing factory converter, but I would run into an issue of not getting full charges. For that reason I am ordering the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power RV Converter and Battery Charger - Lithium - 12V - 60 Amps, Total price $224.12. I would have bought all of this from etrailer had it been available. They are great to work with.
5) I also have ordered a BUSBAR for power distribution since the Big Battery 170's will not have terminals. $20
TOTAL COST (so far) FOR THE 340 AMP HOUR BANK: $2,241
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I am still debating ordering a battery isolation manager. I think at 340ah it would be a wise investment. Any thoughts on the need for that. Anything I might be missing in the above?
My son and I are going to do the install. We will book 2 weekends for it and go very slowly. I have some experience with DC power, but still rookie enough to know I don't know enough.
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My order from Big Battery shipped yesterday. I ordered them Friday so they were built and tested in about a day or so.
If you have a BIM now, I would replace it with the LI-BIM 225. It behaves differently to make sure the alternator does not over charge the LI batteries but still lets the Converter charge the chassis battery when on shore power.
I ordered a LI-BIM 225 from Battle Born to replace my BIM 160.
If this setup works as well as others have said, I have room to add a third 170Ah battery so we'll see how it goes.
My batteries are supposed to be here by the 9th and I already have my new Progressive Dynamics Converter for LI batteries. The LI-BIM said it shipped but I have not seen any tracking number for it. Hopefully by this time next week I will have it all installed.
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08-04-2021, 05:40 PM
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#44
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Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 29M
State: Arkansas
Posts: 57
THOR #20830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
My order from Big Battery shipped yesterday. I ordered them Friday so they were built and tested in about a day or so.
If you have a BIM now, I would replace it with the LI-BIM 225. It behaves differently to make sure the alternator does not over charge the LI batteries but still lets the Converter charge the chassis battery when on shore power.
I ordered a LI-BIM 225 from Battle Born to replace my BIM 160.
If this setup works as well as others have said, I have room to add a third 170Ah battery so we'll see how it goes.
My batteries are supposed to be here by the 9th and I already have my new Progressive Dynamics Converter for LI batteries. The LI-BIM said it shipped but I have not seen any tracking number for it. Hopefully by this time next week I will have it all installed.
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I went ahead and ordered the BIM. Like most RV projects, what a couple hundred more dollars at this point! lol. I do think it would be quite the nightmare to burn up an alternator on the road, so probably well worth the cost.
As to adding the 3rd battery ... I too could squeeze one more in later, but I have also read that the ages of the batteries should be close. Any thoughts on that?
Next year I think what I am going to do is add a second inverter and put the circuit with the microwave and the coffee pot on it. Do you think it would be wise to put in a battery that's a year newer than the other two? Would it matter?
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08-04-2021, 05:56 PM
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#45
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2020 Magnitude SV34
State: Florida
Posts: 4,139
THOR #12751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburns884
I went ahead and ordered the BIM. Like most RV projects, what a couple hundred more dollars at this point! lol. I do think it would be quite the nightmare to burn up an alternator on the road, so probably well worth the cost.
As to adding the 3rd battery ... I too could squeeze one more in later, but I have also read that the ages of the batteries should be close. Any thoughts on that?
Next year I think what I am going to do is add a second inverter and put the circuit with the microwave and the coffee pot on it. Do you think it would be wise to put in a battery that's a year newer than the other two? Would it matter?
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The batteries should be of comporable age and the same size. I am thinking that if it works well in the first few days, I would order another one right away.... although the wallet doesn't like to hear that.
That being said...... the 340Ah is going to be leaps and bonds better than the flooded batteries I have so I may not really need it given the amount of boondocking I do and what I want to run.
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08-04-2021, 06:05 PM
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#46
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Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 29M
State: Arkansas
Posts: 57
THOR #20830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
The batteries should be of comporable age and the same size. I am thinking that if it works well in the first few days, I would order another one right away.... although the wallet doesn't like to hear that.
That being said...... the 340Ah is going to be leaps and bonds better than the flooded batteries I have so I may not really need it given the amount of boondocking I do and what I want to run.
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Same here. Honestly 370ah is probably overkill for most of what we do. What I would really love to be able to do is run the AC for a couple of hours AFTER generator cut off time in Summer in National Parks. 4 x 170 would put me at 680, and I think it's possible at that point (and with the alternator upgrade and an EZ start), but probably still just a bit under powered to do it right.
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08-05-2021, 05:03 PM
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#47
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2020 Magnitude SV34
State: Florida
Posts: 4,139
THOR #12751
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Even though I have not gotten my LiFePO4's yet from Big Battery, I'm glad I ordered from them and not Battle Born so far.
I ordered the LI-BIM 225 from Battle Born last Friday in early in the day. It was supposed to be in stock. A few hours later they changed the status from "processing" to "completed" so I assumed it shipped; especially since they charged my credit card.
Four days later and I still didn't have any tracking information or confirmation it shipped. I finally sent them an e-mail first thing this morning and a few hours later a I finally get an e-mail with a tracking number. It hasn''t been picked up yet but I assume it will be later today.
They haven't even replied to my e-mail yet asking if and when it will ship. So not overly impressed with their customer service so far.
Big Battery so far has under-promised and over-delivered. They told me it would take a week to ship the batteries because they had to build them and test them. I ordered the batteries the same time as the BIM and they were shipped out on Tuesday.
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08-05-2021, 05:56 PM
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#48
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Senior Member
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 6,187
THOR #2121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburns884
Same here. Honestly 370ah is probably overkill for most of what we do. What I would really love to be able to do is run the AC for a couple of hours AFTER generator cut off time in Summer in National Parks. 4 x 170 would put me at 680, and I think it's possible at that point (and with the alternator upgrade and an EZ start), but probably still just a bit under powered to do it right.
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Two fully-charged 170 Ah lithium batteries should power an A/C for a couple of hours, particularly in evening when it’s normally cooler outside; assuming start-up current is limited with a soft start. There wouldn’t be much juice left though.
The problem you would likely run into is getting them charged back up if the National Park limits generator use to one hour in morning and another hour in evening (that’s the generator restriction I’ve run into most often at NPs). Others may have different experiences.
Two batteries combined should store around 4.3 kWh, so powering a “typical” A/C at +/- 1,500 Watts for two hours requires about 3 kWh, but adding for inverter inefficiency and you need closer to 4 kWh. That’s why practically all attempts at trying to power air conditioners with batteries use the most efficient air conditioner available within reason, AND do not oversize the A/C unnecessarily.
https://bigbattery.com/products/12v-...70ah-2-176kwh/
The obvious problem is that if you use over 300 Ah of energy to power A/C for two hours, and converter/charger can supply no more than 60 Amps, it would take much longer than 2 hours of generator time to charge batteries back up. It would likely take over 5~6 hours.
If you add more batteries they could power the A/C longer, but the time to get them charged back up at only 60 Amps from converter/charger remains the bottleneck. Solar could help a little but only if parked in sun and with lots of panel area.
RVs that are designed to power air conditioners from batteries typically have some way to charge the battery bank at 200 Amps or more. That’s key.
Cheaper batteries makes it affordable to buy more energy storage capacity, but charging them fast will likely be necessary for many RV owners.
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08-06-2021, 04:45 AM
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#49
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Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 29M
State: Arkansas
Posts: 57
THOR #20830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance
Two fully-charged 170 Ah lithium batteries should power an A/C for a couple of hours, particularly in evening when it’s normally cooler outside; assuming start-up current is limited with a soft start. There wouldn’t be much juice left though.
The problem you would likely run into is getting them charged back up if the National Park limits generator use to one hour in morning and another hour in evening (that’s the generator restriction I’ve run into most often at NPs). Others may have different experiences.
Two batteries combined should store around 4.3 kWh, so powering a “typical” A/C at +/- 1,500 Watts for two hours requires about 3 kWh, but adding for inverter inefficiency and you need closer to 4 kWh. That’s why practically all attempts at trying to power air conditioners with batteries use the most efficient air conditioner available within reason, AND do not oversize the A/C unnecessarily.
https://bigbattery.com/products/12v-...70ah-2-176kwh/
The obvious problem is that if you use over 300 Ah of energy to power A/C for two hours, and converter/charger can supply no more than 60 Amps, it would take much longer than 2 hours of generator time to charge batteries back up. It would likely take over 5~6 hours.
If you add more batteries they could power the A/C longer, but the time to get them charged back up at only 60 Amps from converter/charger remains the bottleneck. Solar could help a little but only if parked in sun and with lots of panel area.
RVs that are designed to power air conditioners from batteries typically have some way to charge the battery bank at 200 Amps or more. That’s key.
Cheaper batteries makes it affordable to buy more energy storage capacity, but charging them fast will likely be necessary for many RV owners.
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My most recent National Park camping was in Great Smokey Mountain NP and (at the site we were at) generator hours were 8am to 8pm. Of course. We also don’t want to be “those campers”. Lots to think about for sure! all good point though.
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08-06-2021, 04:52 AM
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#50
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Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 29M
State: Arkansas
Posts: 57
THOR #20830
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I have an Anderson Connector cable ordered for the two batteries that will accomplish wiring them in parallel. Then I plan to use the Anderson ring cable to join into that and run to the bus bar bignattrrh recommended.
My concern is that the Anderson connector wires are all 6AWG. Is that gauge adequate or undersized?
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08-06-2021, 10:05 AM
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#51
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2020 Magnitude SV34
State: Florida
Posts: 4,139
THOR #12751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburns884
I have an Anderson Connector cable ordered for the two batteries that will accomplish wiring them in parallel. Then I plan to use the Anderson ring cable to join into that and run to the bus bar bignattrrh recommended.
My concern is that the Anderson connector wires are all 6AWG. Is that gauge adequate or undersized?
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I am just using Busbars to connect them in parallel.
The 6AWG is good for about 55A. Given the length of the cables they provide there should be minimal voltage drop. I did find a 2AWG cable on Amazon. I have 2AWG installed now for my batteries.
https://www.amazon.com/Spartan-Power...57&sr=8-6&th=1
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08-06-2021, 11:06 AM
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#52
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Junior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: Florida
Posts: 2
THOR #24250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomandgayle
We are considering a lithium upgrade. We have a 2017 ARIA and need to know if our charging system will be compatible with lithium. Thoughts?
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I just did it on my 2019 four winds. You could put upto 3 12volts or 6 golfcart. But you would have to change convertor
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08-06-2021, 02:35 PM
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#53
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 31S
State: Texas
Posts: 4,153
THOR #6411
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Several Companies make inverter/charger combinations for large lithium battery banks. Xantrex is one.
<https://www.xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/freedom-xcpromarine.aspx>
A 150 amp, 12 volt configurable charger and 3,000 watt inverter with a 50 amp transfer relay.
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Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
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08-06-2021, 03:53 PM
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#54
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Senior Member
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 6,187
THOR #2121
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Xantrex also indicate having a 90-Amp unit at 48V nominal. That’s equivalent power to 360 Amps if it were on a 12V system. Granted, it’s for a large RV lithium system.
My observation is that manufacturers are trying to get charging speeds around 2 hours based on charging batteries at 0.5C rate.
We also need to keep in mind that it takes a lot of juice to power these high-capacity chargers, whether from generator or shore power. That could be a problem with 30A RVs depending on owner expectations for what else they want to run at same time.
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08-06-2021, 05:46 PM
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#55
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 31S
State: Texas
Posts: 4,153
THOR #6411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance
Xantrex also indicate having a 90-Amp unit at 48V nominal. That’s equivalent power to 360 Amps if it were on a 12V system. Granted, it’s for a large RV lithium system.
My observation is that manufacturers are trying to get charging speeds around 2 hours based on charging batteries at 0.5C rate.
We also need to keep in mind that it takes a lot of juice to power these high-capacity chargers, whether from generator or shore power. That could be a problem with 30A RVs depending on owner expectations for what else they want to run at same time.
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Generally the 55-85 amp chargers are on a 15 amp CB; the 150 amp charger requires a 20 amp CB. The actual max charge rate can be set from 0-150 amps from the control panel or by cell phone if you opt of the Bluetooth panel.
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Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
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08-06-2021, 06:47 PM
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#56
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2020 Magnitude SV34
State: Florida
Posts: 4,139
THOR #12751
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I am starting to prepare for my Lithium Upgrade next week. So there is an outside chance I may need to contact FireFly to see about possible modifications to my system.
I just checked the AGS settings and the highest I can go on the Low Voltage Trigger is 12.5V to start the genny.
According to the "theoretical" Voltage vs DoD charts for LiFePO4, that would put me at about 14% DoD.
Now with the voltage drop from where the batteries are located to where the FireFly control board is located, that means the acually battery voltage would probably be closer to ~12.6 - ~12.7V. That starts to get me closer to 20% of DoD.
But.... according to the Big Battery literature, they claim that if I use 11.5V as the Low Voltage Cut-Off, that would actually be 85% DoD for increased battery cycle life vs. taking it down to 9.8V. So that would mean my 12.5V setting would probably work for the AGS and keeping the batteries at about 20% DoD.
I'll do some testing and see how it goes first but I think I may be able to live with the FireFly Settings as they are right now.
The upper Voltage Limit for the AGS to stop the generator is 14.5V so again with the voltage drop, I should be ok there to get the batteries to a full 14.6V.
I also broke down today and decided to order a third 170Ah battery. I figured even if I was on the fence about it, I was better off doing it right from the start.
That will put me at 510Ah and give me more than enough power for my needs. I have no intention of upgrading my 2000W Xantrex Inverter and more battery capacity to run the A/C units. I could decide to add the microwave into the mix with my current Inverter.... but I doubt I will go through the trouble. Chances of not being able to fire up the generator when I would need it for the microwave are slim.
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08-07-2021, 11:25 PM
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#57
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Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Hurricane 29M
State: Arkansas
Posts: 57
THOR #20830
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…
I think I am going to save a few bucks and go with this instead of the Victron712. I already have a dedicated tablet for onboard apps, and would probably never use the tiny little monitor anyway. Any negatives I might be missing.
https://www.victronenergy.com/batter...-battery-shunt
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08-08-2021, 12:03 AM
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#58
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2020 Magnitude SV34
State: Florida
Posts: 4,139
THOR #12751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mburns884
I think I am going to save a few bucks and go with this instead of the Victron712. I already have a dedicated tablet for onboard apps, and would probably never use the tiny little monitor anyway. Any negatives I might be missing.
https://www.victronenergy.com/batter...-battery-shunt
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I ordered the same one. My solar controller and Inverter are Bluetooth plus they are both connected to the batteries and display the voltage already. I want the Smart Shunt to be able to see capacity remaining, current draw, etc.
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08-10-2021, 01:54 PM
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#59
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Connecticut
Posts: 1,769
THOR #20289
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Judge:
When you get your new Li batteries up and running, how about posting charging currents from your various sources into a partially (less than 50% SOC) battery bank. I would be interested in seeing how the PD converter really charges and particularly interested in how the Li 225 BIM performs at managing excessive alternator current. Reading their specs it seems to cycle on and off every 15 minutes. That sounds like an awfully long time if the alternator is putting out 200 amps into the Li batteries.
I would prefer a DC to DC charger in place of the BIM which would limit current precisely. But how those work with the aux start switch is a mystery.
David
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08-10-2021, 06:49 PM
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#60
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Senior Member
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2020 Magnitude SV34
State: Florida
Posts: 4,139
THOR #12751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidEM
Judge:
When you get your new Li batteries up and running, how about posting charging currents from your various sources into a partially (less than 50% SOC) battery bank. I would be interested in seeing how the PD converter really charges and particularly interested in how the Li 225 BIM performs at managing excessive alternator current. Reading their specs it seems to cycle on and off every 15 minutes. That sounds like an awfully long time if the alternator is putting out 200 amps into the Li batteries.
I would prefer a DC to DC charger in place of the BIM which would limit current precisely. But how those work with the aux start switch is a mystery.
David
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The Big Battery 170Ah units that I purchased can take a maximum charging current of 175A. The BMS should protect it if it goes over that amount.
The LI-BIM 225 checks the voltage of the LiFePO4's every 15 minutes. Only when the voltage is less than 13.3V or less than ~80% DoD will it connect so the alternator can charge for 15 minutes.
The only thing I am really powering while driving are my two fridges, which are always at temp when I am off shore power. When coming off shore power the batteries should be at or near 100% and coupled with my 320W of solar, I should not need the alternator to be charging much in most circumstances.
We do boon dock occassionally so I those will be times the alternator will need to provide a charge but the solar should also be charging when the alternator isn't.
I was close to pulling the trigger on the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000 and replacing my Xantrex Freedom X and using it for charing, but at this point I didn't want to spend another $1200. The 2000W is really all I need for right now.
I think the PD Lithium Converter should be ok. My battery specs say 80A is the recommended charging current. I will be at 60A so it will just take a little longer for them to charge... but again if there is any sun, my solar will also be contributing.
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