Is Solar really needed for Charging

[M&M_MURPHYS]

We often camp at state / rustic campgrounds.

Yes we could use our generator to juice up our batteries everyday but we do not like to disturb fellow campers (and ourselves) with our generator noise. We do run the generator a bit if needed for the microwave or if cloudy conditions interfere with solar production.

We added a solar panel and went to lithium batteries and have never looked back.

Solar panels and the lithium batteries are the best upgrade we have added to our rig. Levelers are a close second.

[Scubawise]

Convinced when I change will DO AGM minimum.
With Interstate group 31 and running heater at night etc drops from 12.7 to 11.9 consistently .if I do lithium is there a group 31?

How much AH AGM vs. Lithium?

What exact other changes needed for lithium?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by M&M_MURPHYS

We often camp at state / rustic campgrounds.

Yes we could use our generator to juice up our batteries everyday but we do not like to disturb fellow campers (and ourselves) with our generator noise. We do run the generator a bit if needed for the microwave or if cloudy conditions interfere with solar production.

We added a solar panel and went to lithium batteries and have never looked back.

Solar panels and the lithium batteries are the best upgrade we have added to our rig. Levelers are a close second.

Thanks but just wish to point out as OP that the thread is not intended as a Solar vs Gen question.

It is whether someone that has a RV that is designed and not equipped for Solar would actually need a Solar upgrade? If so; why?

Thus far I have learned if the RV was going to be stored for months with no available shore power it would make sense.

On your points of noise, it is not something that we have ever encountered. #1 We don't think our generator is loud at all, #2 Our generator is programed to no run at night during Quiet Time; besides we don't think we have ever annoyed anyone else with noise because we never camp at any of those campsites that have RV packed in like sardines. Although; I do worry sometimes about the outside TV at or Patio lights at nights. On this point, we have never been in situation where we thought a RV was too loud due to generator; because most cases we have shore power.

So look at like this, in my case; I would not need to buy a Solar system just so that I could park very close to someone I don't know to keep my battery charged. I can go 2 full days off a single full charge. I have never heard of anyone even remotely complaining about generator noise during the day hours (Non Quiet Time) Now that being said, I have heard some very loud generators, my brother's propane Generator in a Sprinter from Midwest RV being one. It sounds awful and he hates to run it during the day, but his RV came equipped with Solar so he avoids his generator altogether. If I had his RV I would do the same.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

Convinced when I change will DO AGM minimum.
With Interstate group 31 and running heater at night etc drops from 12.7 to 11.9 consistently .if I do lithium is there a group 31?

How much AH AGM vs. Lithium?

What exact other changes needed for lithium?

Scuba,
I am gonna defer to others in regard to your Lithium questions, but in regard to the other, from what I think I have learned from you, I am not sure we understand root cause of truly which problem you may need to solve. Sure AGM or Lithium may mask the impact.

When you say run the heater at night; is that the propane furnace or an electric heater (s) that is running off inverter?

Also, I think you said you have new Interstate FLA, what is the model # or what is the exact AH rating for each of the two batteries?

And finally you say it drops from 12.7? At what time does you Solar stop charging (sunset) and is the 12.7 fully charged?

I get you may wish to pay your way and bypass Go and that works too. When I went to AGM I was solving specific problems. #1 I had had it with watering, sulfating etc. #2 I wanted the maximun AHs available in AGM that would fit in my RV #3 I did not want to venture in Lithium as that has another set of requirements and maintenance that would have defeated my intent by #1.

As it turned out, I was able to double my capacity which I suspect may be all you need.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

Convinced when I change will DO AGM minimum.
With Interstate group 31 and running heater at night etc drops from 12.7 to 11.9 consistently .if I do lithium is there a group 31?

How much AH AGM vs. Lithium?

What exact other changes needed for lithium?

All those answers are found in multiple threads on this forum.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

Convinced when I change will DO AGM minimum.
With Interstate group 31 and running heater at night etc drops from 12.7 to 11.9 consistently .if I do lithium is there a group 31?
How much AH AGM vs. Lithium?
What exact other changes needed for lithium?

We are told that FLA or AGM can be discharged down to 50% w/o damaging the battery while lithium can be discharged down to 20% w/o damage so you need to calculate what useful "ah" is available.
Usually lithium batteries are smaller and lighter so you can have way more ah in the same space...
If today you have a 100ah AGM that would be equivalent to a 62.5ah lithium in terms of ah available but the size will be smaller...
As far as I could find, you need to change your charge controller and your BIM if you move to lithium...

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

Convinced when I change will DO AGM minimum.
With Interstate group 31 and running heater at night etc drops from 12.7 to 11.9 consistently .if I do lithium is there a group 31?

How much AH AGM vs. Lithium?

What exact other changes needed for lithium?

To give you a referential. My RV spent 4 weeks at a dealership after a trip to Colorado in Oct. They always turn off the Use Switch; so it just sat, we picked it up a week ago, I drove it 40 minutes home and it has been parked every since with no shore power and no solar. Today at 3:30 PM the voltage had dropped to 12.5vdc; my AGS was not on; so for kicks versus plugging in to shorepower I put my AGS in Auto mode, after about 30 seconds the AGS fired up the genset, no priming needed or it primed by itself but point was it started, I turn on both ACs at full blast, a TV and all of the lights at bright. At 6:30 PM my wife says the generator stopped, I had honestly forgot it was running. I go outside, shut AC and everything else off, and the House batteries (AGMs 125ah) were reading 13.2 vdc, the Chassis battery FLA was reading 12.7 vdc

So I left my Use switch to ON so some draw may be happening, but everything that I can physically turn off is off. No shorepower is connected although it is available. I will check tomorrow.

What I expect? The AGM House batteries will eventually hit 12.9 but just kind of sit there flashing with 12.8 but may hit 12.7 tomorrow. We will see.

The Chassis batteries will not move unless I keep going in and out of the RV to check the voltages (the steps)

So one clear takeaway... it took my genset 3 hours to fully charge my batteries from 12.5 vdc which is actually only 60% SOC to 13.2 vdc. For my basic RV use and with my current batteries, I don't actually need 50%, 40%, 30%, 20% or even 10% SOC. Yes it would be a nice to have, but I am keeping my Pure AGM batteries & generator healthier. Besides; one main point of the higher end batteries is that you are afforded 1000s of cycles that you will never need, if the duration of your actual need fits within a shorter cycle, why not use it?

[atreis]

I prefer solar and have had it on my last three RVs. I prefer the quiet of solar, and more often than not camp in places where AC isn't necessary. Others don't mind the sound of the generator. I almost always camp without hookups. Others always camp with hookups. There are many ways to enjoy this great country of ours. Pick the one that works for you, and be happy.

[Chateau_Nomad]

We got a nice rare sunny and 50° day here in Ohio, so I decided to do my monthly generator exercise routine and walk-through inspection a day early... usually on the 1st of each month.

After unzipping and pulling back the RV cover at the appropriate areas, I went in and popped the caps off the two 6volt GC2 batteries under the step. Both exactly full, the way they were a month ago. The solar charge controller read 13.8 volts, also exactly as a month ago. Didn't find any leaks, rodents or varmint encroachment.

I started the generator, then the engine. The charge controller then showed 14.4 volts. I plugged in a 1,500 watt heater for a load. I let the generator and engine run for just under an hour, unplugged the heater, then shut off the generator and engine.

After a couple minutes the charge controller again showed 13.8 volts. Buttoned everything back up and same routine in another month.

I consider that about as close as you can get to "maintenance free" with flooded lead-acid batteries!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

We got a nice rare sunny and 50° day here in Ohio, so I decided to do my monthly generator exercise routine and walk-through inspection a day early... usually on the 1st of each month.

After unzipping and pulling back the RV cover at the appropriate areas, I went in and popped the caps off the two 6volt GC2 batteries under the step. Both exactly full, the way they were a month ago. The solar charge controller read 13.8 volts, also exactly as a month ago. Didn't find any leaks, rodents or varmint encroachment.

I started the generator, then the engine. The charge controller then showed 14.4 volts. I plugged in a 1,500 watt heater for a load. I let the generator and engine run for just under an hour, unplugged the heater, then shut off the generator and engine.

After a couple minutes the charge controller again showed 13.8 volts. Buttoned everything back up and same routine in another month.

I consider that about as close as you can get to "maintenance free" with flooded lead-acid batteries!

Nice, I figure you absolutely have to have Solar because no shorepower nearby and no AGS.

I have few questions.

When you were putting your cover on, you said you pulled it from rear crawling toward the front. How did you get the cover to drop down over the front without knocking yourself over It seems like you would have had to somehow stand on it and if so that would be tricky to push over the edge? Otherwise;, the process seem flawless but I am a bigger wimp on getting a cover than I am in getting solar

You know I did not think to plug in a heater to put load on my generator, opting instead to run both ACs. Wasn't my fault though because I took my portable electric 1500w heater out the RV weighing all of my cargo But hey; I know my exact weight now and saved a $20 weigh fee to be used should I ever have to buy Solar.

How many AH are your two 6volt GC batteries?

I was just doing the math, trying to figure how many differences we have?

1. Class A vs Class C
2. 6 volts GC vs 12volt
3. Cover vs No Cover
4. Solar vs No Solar
5. AGS vs No AGS
6. Ohio vs Texas
7. 50 amp vs 30 amp
8. Store for Winter vs Year around usage
9. RV Antifreeze vs Air Dry
10. Well we both use Meguiars #56 Pure RV & Boat Wax

So you get 1 out 10 right, 10%... that ain't too bad

But you do get bonus points for that buffing and oxidizing removal blog

[Chateau_Nomad]

I generally do a "crab crawl" on the roof... especially when putting the cover on.

When I get the cover pulled up to the front cap I keep pulling the rest of it up - kind of bunch it up into a pile the width of the roof so I can crawl back over it onto the bare roof. Then while keeping my knees on the back part I start throwing the front of the cover over the cap.

The helper secures that to the front. Then I start crawling back while pulling the cover with me... working side to side keeping the seams even. Etc. Etc. It's not really as awkward as it sounds. But I figure when I hit my 70s (not many years) it won't be so easy. I just go slow, and never rush. I respect the danger.

My 6 volts are Duracell GC2 215 amp hour rating. Got them at Sam's Club for about $90 each.

When exercising the genny in summer (if needed) I load it with the AC. I try to run/exercise the generator more frequently in summer too... every couple weeks if not on the road.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

So I left my Use switch to ON so some draw may be happening, but everything that I can physically turn off is off. No shorepower is connected although it is available. I will check tomorrow.

What I expect? The AGM House batteries will eventually hit 12.9 but just kind of sit there flashing with 12.8 but may hit 12.7 tomorrow. We will see.

So 24 hours later, I go check the batteries...

AGM House Batteries 12.8 vdc
Chassis Battery 12.6 vdc

That is what I expected, imagine if I were to turn the Use Switch OFF, it simply will not move

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

So 24 hours later, I go check the batteries...

AGM House Batteries 12.8 vdc
Chassis Battery 12.6 vdc

That is what I expected, imagine if I were to turn the Use Switch OFF, it simply will not move

Ok So now it is 48 hours later...

The batteries read...

AGM House Batteries 12.8 vdc
Chassis Battery 12.6 vdc

So that is no change from yesterday and RV is still in Use Mode. If I turn it Use Switch to OFF it would be even better, the only thing that I have found to draw when Use Switch is on is the power to the antenna. That little LED stays green until Use Switch goes off.

But my larger point is that our RV is never parked anywhere for 2 or 3 consecutive days unless at home (maybe a dealership) without us going somewhere. We do not have a toad so we drive the RV everywhere and it is always charging while being driven.

So yes, if I turn on the TVs, lights, or outside fridge (which is rare) by the 2nd day my genny will fire up @ 12.5 vdc for 2 - 3 hours if we are boondocking with no shorepower.

I love to state Quality is defined as Fitness For Use. Solar charging is great application and has a lot of value and I realize that, I just wanted to show how it is not a one size fit all, and in my situation, right now I don't need Solar charging.

[Chateau_Nomad]

I went out and checked my batteries... no generator or shore power for a month. 13.8 volts.

Lotta good that does me... with the stinking cold weather in Ohio. So I just look out the window at the RV sitting out there all alone and recite: Four... more... months.

Hint - Been doing some research on AGM batteries as an eventual replacement for my Sam's Club cheapies. I'm impressed with the energy density vs cost ratio. Lithium is STILL off the table for me... TOO expensive for use case.

I'm intrigued by: Obviously maintenance free, mounting in any orientation... and bang for buck. After one more season we're planning on longer trips with the wife also retired. By then, I plan on replacing the 6 volts with possibly 3 decent AH 12 volt AGM batteries.

? = Do AGMs need venting? Can they be crammed into an exterior (locked) storage compartment?

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I went out and checked my batteries... no generator or shore power for a month. 13.8 volts.

Lotta good that does me... with the stinking cold weather in Ohio. So I just look out the window at the RV sitting out there all alone and recite: Four... more... months.

Hint - Been doing some research on AGM batteries as an eventual replacement for my Sam's Club cheapies. I'm impressed with the energy density vs cost ratio. Lithium is STILL off the table for me... TOO expensive for use case.

I'm intrigued by: Obviously maintenance free, mounting in any orientation... and bang for buck. After one more season we're planning on longer trips with the wife also retired. By then, I plan on replacing the 6 volts with possibly 3 decent AH 12 volt AGM batteries.

? = Do AGMs need venting? Can they be crammed into an exterior (locked) storage compartment?

I'm right there with you... Rig is under cover just out of my home office window....
I plan to ditch my factory FLAs next year and install 3 VMAX tank XTR127-110s. I don't think you can mount AGMs in any direction... need to check. As far as I know AGMs don't need venting.
I considered this LiFEePO battery: https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-Recha...2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1
But for what we do it is too expensive considering you need to change the power controller and BIM....
I have a list of improvements I want to do and that $ will help....

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I went out and checked my batteries... no generator or shore power for a month. 13.8 volts.

But you have Solar and your RV is stored. It has been established that if you intend to store RV with no shorepower Solar is needed and gold. My readings were reflecting No Genny, No Shorepower & No Solar. Plus it is in Use Position

Lotta good that does me... with the stinking cold weather in Ohio. So I just look out the window at the RV sitting out there all alone and recite: Four... more... months.

Agree, but I am betting on nice winter and you pull the cover and make a trip.

Hint - Been doing some research on AGM batteries as an eventual replacement for my Sam's Club cheapies. I'm impressed with the energy density vs cost ratio. Lithium is STILL off the table for me... TOO expensive for use case.

I'm intrigued by: Obviously maintenance free, mounting in any orientation... and bang for buck. After one more season we're planning on longer trips with the wife also retired. By then, I plan on replacing the 6 volts with possibly 3 decent AH 12 volt AGM batteries.

? = Do AGMs need venting? Can they be crammed into an exterior (locked) storage compartment?

AGMs do not require venting, and yes they can be crammed or mounted in any orientation.

The only thing you need to check for is to ensure your converter charger and your solar charging have intelligent programs as to not damage the batteries.

I actually go weeks at a time with my shorepower disconnected, because I don't really need my batteries at max full charge 100% of the time; while sitting. Think of brand new battery in store.

i.e. I will take my RV back to dealership on Monday and I have not had it plugged in going on two weeks now. I did run genny 3 hours but that was after 6 weeks of no use and to see how long it took to get a full charge (AGS shutoff by itself which was 3 hrs)

One thing I must start to do; and that is to use the Use ON/OFF switch more. It is a habit that I don't have that I think I should. i.e. what if I forget and leave a light or two on, the outside fridge, or if a light is on in a lower compartment bay that I forgot.

Question?
To install 3 12vdc batteries, will you need to wire 2 in parallel with 1 in series? ( or do you need 4)

[Scubawise]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Ok So now it is 48 hours later...

The batteries read...

AGM House Batteries 12.8 vdc
Chassis Battery 12.6 vdc

So that is no change from yesterday and RV is still in Use Mode. If I turn it Use Switch to OFF it would be even better, the only thing that I have found to draw when Use Switch is on is the power to the antenna. That little LED stays green until Use Switch goes off.

But my larger point is that our RV is never parked anywhere for 2 or 3 consecutive days unless at home (maybe a dealership) without us going somewhere. We do not have a toad so we drive the RV everywhere and it is always charging while being driven.

So yes, if I turn on the TVs, lights, or outside fridge (which is rare) by the 2nd day my genny will fire up @ 12.5 vdc for 2 - 3 hours if we are boondocking with no shorepower.

I love to state Quality is defined as Fitness For Use. Solar charging is great application and has a lot of value and I realize that, I just wanted to show how it is not a one size fit all, and in my situation, right now I don't need Solar charging.

You convinced me. So AGM no bim or other changes

[Scubawise]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I went out and checked my batteries... no generator or shore power for a month. 13.8 volts.

Lotta good that does me... with the stinking cold weather in Ohio. So I just look out the window at the RV sitting out there all alone and recite: Four... more... months.

Hint - Been doing some research on AGM batteries as an eventual replacement for my Sam's Club cheapies. I'm impressed with the energy density vs cost ratio. Lithium is STILL off the table for me... TOO expensive for use case.

I'm intrigued by: Obviously maintenance free, mounting in any orientation... and bang for buck. After one more season we're planning on longer trips with the wife also retired. By then, I plan on replacing the 6 volts with possibly 3 decent AH 12 volt AGM batteries.

? = Do AGMs need venting? Can they be crammed into an exterior (locked) storage compartment?

Hard to tell in 2 agm vs fla gives 20 or 30 or 40% more juice or don't go down as fast?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

You convinced me. So AGM no bim or other changes

Right

But before you install those high end AGMs, take a little time to verify a few things. Feel free to call VMax Tank directly because they have real people who answer the phone, at least they did before I bought mine.

They gonna ask what model converter you have, and since you are wired for Solar; that Solar Controller is relevant too.

All 24/7 charging systems are not necessarily a good thing if the charging is not smart enough to know when charging at high voltage is NOT needed

I have SOB that came with a Progressive Dynamics and it has an Intelligent Program Wizard Charger. I would NEVER wire a trickle charge to my AGMs batteries, Although I do for my Harley; but the charger is authorized by Harley Davidson.

I tend to overdo stuff because for me the fun is learning how things work and why the experts say to do the stuff they say. I never intend to question anyone as I know they know why, but I kind of want to learn why too. But I do state the facts I know them to be eagerly waiting a correction when it is warranted

Below is optional; what I would do if I were you.

1. Make certain my batteries are fully charged, use shorepower , solar , genny or alternator but when you know it is fully charged record the voltage for both House & Chassis
2. If possible (may not be if you traveling) Take a reading 4 hours later ( try to have every off but leave in the USE position as ON and get new readings. ( my money says you should be at 12.7 vdc for both) but if you are at 12.2 or so you may have another problem than just your batteries?
3. Get readings 24 hours later and repeat. You can do the same with USE switch off if your model has a lot of stuff wired before the Switch ( mine don't but some do). All I am looking for is some insurances that when everything is off there are no relevant loads on the batteries.

To put this in perspective when you are traveling your systems should stay charged anyway due to normal usage like alternator and AC needs. When you turn that TV on or two TVs it should not show a voltage drop. Watch your inverter closely to read current wattage consumption.

In my view the Solar comes in to play primarily as added insurance to help keep the batteries fully charged but should not be relevant in resolving your problem which is simply watch TV in peace (no generator) I never run genny at night (Quietime) and I never come close to running out power.

Most campgrounds consider Quiet time at 10:00 PM. Even with my old NAPA FLA I had my Quiet time starting at 8:00 PM, when I got the AGM I moved it to 7:00 PM, but after these discussion with you, I am thinking to move it 5:00 PM. I may go to 6:00 PM next Spring when time changes, but my goal is set my Quiet Time to start with the Sunset of wherever I may be.

Good luck.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Question?
To install 3 12vdc batteries, will you need to wire 2 in parallel with 1 in series? ( or do you need 4)

Batteries wired in parallel multiplies capacity (amp hours) while voltage remains the same. Therefore, any number of 12 volt batteries (even or odd) can be wired in parallel. Each battery added contributes to additional amp hour capacity while maintaining 12 volts.

Batteries wired in series multiplies voltage... my two 6 volt batteries are wired in series to produce 12 volts. Adding more 6 volt batteries would require wiring pairs of those in series, then wiring those pairs in parallel.

So, 6 volt batteries always have to be used in pairs for a 12 volt system, while 12 volt batteries can be added in any combination.