fchabotski said that his house lights were still working so the converter was supplying power to the 12v systems - as it should even with the Use/Store in Store. However, the house and chassis batteries are on the other side of the Use/Store switch - at least in the Axis. So neither the house or chassis batteries will charge under shore power or generator if the Use/Store is in store. If the engine is started with the Use/Store in Store, the BIRD will open the Trombetta but the two battery banks will not be hooked together because they are separated by the Use/Store switch. The chassis battery will charge but the house batteries will not.
Your Ace should work the same way, but with Thor you never know. It easy to check if you have a volt meter. Put the Use store in store, start the engine and see if the house batteries are charging. Turn the engine off and hook up shore power and see if either of the battery systems are charging.
If the Use/Store in in Store and the coach is left for any length of time, the house batteries will drain down. There are enough parasitic loads to make that happen - at least in the Axis. Some people have installed a disconnect switch at the battery. However, there is a 50 amp breaker in the battery box that does the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bevedfelker
USE/STORE is really a poor name and a misnomer. Its purpose is to electrically connect and disconnect the house batteries. So USE = batteries connected, STORE = batteries disconnected.
Tfryman -- When shore power or the generator is providing 120 VAC, the converter IS providing AC and DC (from the converters DC rectifier) to the coach circuits to operate all the AC and DC functions in the coach -- except DC power is not going to the batteries when in STORE because the batteries are electrically disconnected.
This is why new folks get a false sense of security and often ask here on the forum, "how can the house batteries be dead when everything works in the coach?". When you operate the USE/STORE switch and you hear that "clunk" sound, that is the Coach Battery Disconnect Relay energizing and de-energizing. The USE/SRORE switch provides 12 DC to the solenoid of that relay. When that relay is open the batteries are disconnected from the converter.
Ed, I know how things are supposed to work; the question is why his coach wasn't working as expected.
We don't know how his coach is wired - his house lights could be wired directly to the battery without going through the USE/STORE switch.
We don't know the state of charge his batteries were in. All we know is he connected an external charger to his chassis battery and click/clack walaw he can start the engine and generator immediately as if there had never been an issue and his onboard "charger" is now humming and the "charger" light is on, which was not on when he first returned to the coach.
Now maybe what he is calling a "charger" is really an inverter, because I have not seen a converter/charger with a light but lots of inverters have them.
I was simply pointing out that despite all the advice about the USE/STORE switch, he still had things to investigate; like why he couldn't start the coach's engine until he connected a charger to the chassis battery? The chassis battery should not have any interaction with the USE/STORE switch or the relays it controls if things are working correctly.
The Axis/Vegas does not have an inverter. It only has a converter/charger. The 12v system in the RV (house lights) is between the converter/charger and the use/store switch, so the lights do work when the Use/store switch is in store and the converter is charged by shore power or the generator. His system seems to be working correctly in that sense. The humming he hears is probably the converter, not the charger if the Use/store switch is in store. If the RV is left with the chassis battery hooked up, it will also drain down to where it will not start the coach. As to why the engine started when the chassis battery was hooked up to a charger, that will happen when there is sufficient juice going thru the battery to the starter motor. How long that takes depends on the charge in the battery and the strength of the battery charger. As I indicated in the previous post, the house batteries will not charge with the engine running if the Use/store is in store. It is possible, as Ed indicated that the use/store solenoid is bad - that has happened more than once in this forum. From his description of the problem it seems possible, if not probable, that both batteries drained and the use/store switch was left on store. If he charges both battery banks, leaves the use/store in use and everything works, he has solved his problems. If not, we need more info to diagnose the problem. The use/store solenoid would be the first place I would look too.
The Axis/Vegas does not have an inverter. It only has a converter/charger. The 12v system in the RV (house lights) is between the converter/charger and the use/store switch, so the lights do work when the Use/store switch is in store and the converter is charged by shore power or the generator. His system seems to be working correctly in that sense. The humming he hears is probably the converter, not the charger if the Use/store switch is in store. If the RV is left with the chassis battery hooked up, it will also drain down to where it will not start the coach. As to why the engine started when the chassis battery was hooked up to a charger, that will happen when there is sufficient juice going thru the battery to the starter motor. How long that takes depends on the charge in the battery and the strength of the battery charger. As I indicated in the previous post, the house batteries will not charge with the engine running if the Use/store is in store. It is possible, as Ed indicated that the use/store solenoid is bad - that has happened more than once in this forum. From his description of the problem it seems possible, if not probable, that both batteries drained and the use/store switch was left on store. If he charges both battery banks, leaves the use/store in use and everything works, he has solved his problems. If not, we need more info to diagnose the problem. The use/store solenoid would be the first place I would look too.
The OP has a Miramar 34.2 so Axis/Vegas based assistance may or may not apply.
The OP has a Miramar 34.2 so Axis/Vegas based assistance may or may not apply.
That is true and that is why I prefaced my remarks with Axis/Vegas. However from multiple discussions on this issue over the past several years, it is my impression that the larger Thor units like the Miramar have similar setups except they have a BCC (battery control center) which serves the same function as the BIRD and Trombetta.
I'm new at this also...I'm storing my Thor freedom elite (Wisconsin) in a barn do I take out my battery underneath the 2nd step or use the batter disconnect?
I'm new at this also...I'm storing my Thor freedom elite (Wisconsin) in a barn do I take out my battery underneath the 2nd step or use the batter disconnect?
Supposedly, a fully charged car battery will not freeze until about -75 F. However a fully discharged batter can freeze at below +32F. That is why it is important to make sure both batteries remain charged over the winter, or move to Florida - like me - where it never freezes. Both your batteries need to be disconnected and tested and/or recharged periodically. In addition, while your house battery is probably a deep discharge battery and can be discharged below 11.8 v multiple times before it is ruined, the starting battery is not. Deep discharge that starting battery 10-12 times and you probably will be purchasing a new one.
I was away a couple o days and am now reading all of the info / advice and I do enjoy the lively discussion. To answere a couple of concerns I’m sure it is the inverter that clunked on at the bac when I put on my charger. Buy just before that “clunk” I’m sure I heard something like a selenoid click on close to the engine compartment where I was, which makes me think that something was turned off. Could that be the Trombeta? And is that a selenoid? Also when I put on the charger I just had it on a low charge and there is no way it would have charge a stone dead battery quickly enough to spin over that v10 the way it did.
Thanks for all the comments. Francis
Here's information from the Axis/Vegas Owners' Manual I compiled. It explains the operation of the Trombetta and Bi-directional Isolation Relay Delay (BIRD) system. The picture shows the BIRD as that square box next to the relay with the red wires. The relay with the red wires is the Isolation Relay also known as the Trombetta. The BIRD & Trombetta is located under the hood.
It is also possible that instead of a BIRD & Trombetta you have a Battery Control Center. In this case the battery charge state detection circuitry and isolation relays are contained in the same box. Although the circuitry and relays are different, how they function and work together is exactly as that described for the BIRD and Trombetta.
__________________
Ed & Bev Felker
Retired USAF Col and retired Nurse
Traveling with Lily & Bella ('Teddy Bear' breed)
2015 Vegas 24.1 (E-350)
As Ed’s documentation shows the Trombetta (a solenoid) just hooks the two battery banks together through the use/store switch and then the use/store switch hooks the batteries to the coach. There is also a 50 amp circuit breaker in the engine compartment near the battery which disconnects the chassis battery from the engine. If it pops open, there is a little red or yellow lever that you push back in to hook the battery back to the engine. The Trombetta does not disconnect the chassis battery from the engine and it does not open unless one of the battery banks is charging and gets above 13.1 v. Did you have the use/store in the use mode when you hooked up the charger? If you did, it seems possible that hooking the charger to the chassis battery opened the Trombetta which (if the Use/store is in use) hooks the two battery banks together and that is what allowed you to start the engine. It is like using the emergency start switch to hook the house batteries to the chassis battery, allowing the engine to crank.
As previously pointed out however, your Miramar 34 could be set up differently than our Axis/Vegas. As I understand it, the BCC performs the same function as the BIRD/Trombetta, so that part show be similar. We do not have an inverter, so that adds another level of complexity.
I don't think anyone answered your question. I think that it took a few minutes for the batteries to charge from the shore power, they were not fully charged but had enough to start the engine, after the engine starts the engine alternator is able to boost the batteries enough to start the generator.
Supposedly, a fully charged car battery will not freeze until about -75 F. However a fully discharged batter can freeze at below +32F. That is why it is important to make sure both batteries remain charged over the winter, or move to Florida - like me - where it never freezes. Both your batteries need to be disconnected and tested and/or recharged periodically. In addition, while your house battery is probably a deep discharge battery and can be discharged below 11.8 v multiple times before it is ruined, the starting battery is not. Deep discharge that starting battery 10-12 times and you probably will be purchasing a new one.
Thank you I should disconnect both batteries and take them back to my home And if they need charging what kind of charger p.s. next year we will be going to Florida Merry Christmas
Thank you I should disconnect both batteries and take them back to my home And if they need charging what kind of charger p.s. next year we will be going to Florida Merry Christmas
I use a small trickle charger to keep the batteries in my cars up to 100% if I am going to be gone for more than several weeks. Florida’s nice for RVing this tim3 of year. Merry Christmas.
I use a small trickle charger to keep the batteries in my cars up to 100% if I am going to be gone for more than several weeks. Florida’s nice for RVing this tim3 of year. Merry Christmas.
I’m so new at this what kind or make of battery charger
I’m so new at this what kind or make of battery charger
The ones that I am using I purchased four years ago and I don’t think they are made anymore, but if you just search for “trickle charger for car battery” on Amazon, they have dozens. You don’t need to spend a lot of money. As long as they are a fully automatic float charger, they all work the same.
About a month ago I parked my Miramar in the shed for the winter and plugged it in. Turned off the store switch.Charger was hummin all was well. Yesterday i went to start it and nothing. Had tried the Gen first but all was dead not even a click. The house lights worked. Checked the charger in the back nothing going on there at all. Not even the light. I put my charger on the engine battery and heard a couple of things turn on right away. Went to the back and the charger there is just a hummin again. What the hell, I say. Go back inside and start the Gen and the motor as if there was never a problem. Battery charger wasn’t on long enough to make a difference on a dead battery so what’s goin on. It’s like I opened a relay or something. Any ideas? Thanks.
I had a similar issue on my 2017 Miramar. After a lot of trouble shooting, and help from the fine folks on this forum helping me find things, I chased the problem down to a DC Power Supply not operating at all. The inverter worked fine, but when the engine wasn’t running enough on trips to keep the coach batteries sufficiently charged to operate the AC systems off the inverter, then all went dead in a quick hurry.
You may want to check that your power supply is charging the batteries when the coach is plugged in. If the batteries get dead enough, then the generator won’t start. My batteries got so dead I had to disconnect them completely from the coach wiring, and deep-cycle charge them for several days in order to start anything. In my case, the engine battery isolation was also jacked up, so the engine wouldn’t start either, but after getting the coach batteries charged, I was able to start the engine, and get my rig to the dealer to replace the battery charger.... which is, BTW, enough of a trial on its own, since (in their infinite wisdom) Thor decided to bury it under the master bed along the outside wall, where it can’t easily be accessed. If you’re interested, I chronicled my whole problem on this forum last Summer.
Good luck! After you get all (or most) of these little frustrations fixed, Miramar’s are pretty cool ways to RV!
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