Camping World Fiasco

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by chunker21

The frame bends and twists. That puts stress on the body, windows, doors, and slides potentially creating an out of square condition. The wheels are attached to the frame in a reinforced and built up area. Jacks not so much, just attached to some point the RV manufacturer decides. A wheel dangling means the frame is supported in a location that wasn't designed for it by the chassis manufacturer. Even the relatively heavy duty Freightliner chassis used on most DP will twist and that twisting frame affects the body attached to it. Indications you might see on the body are a door not quite in square, window that doesn't slide as well, slide grabbing. As fragile as the schwintek slides are especially on big slides, keeping the "box square" should be a priority.

Me, I don't dangle a wheel and carry boards to put under them if necessary. I also manually level because auto leveling overshoots level and extends the jacks much further than necessary to achieve a level condition. To each their own though, I subscribe to the practice of knowing why I do something or a procedure.

Everything you said about twisting the frame and supporting the weight applies whether wheels are dangling or not. Levelers are designed and installed to support the weight of the RV, stabilizers are not. The only difference between a wheel dangling or not is an inch of travel and the weight of the wheel/tire assembly.

[chunker21]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Everything you said about twisting the frame and supporting the weight applies whether wheels are dangling or not. Levelers are designed and installed to support the weight of the RV, stabilizers are not. The only difference between a wheel dangling or not is an inch of travel and the weight of the wheel/tire assembly.

Not necessarily true. The wheels/suspension supports the frame, and thus the house parts, at designed locations by the chassis manufacturer. The levelers are put on by the house manufacturer and have no specific reinforcing to the frame at those locations. Suspending the house on the levelers MAY cause twisting that the house and components can't sustain. That twisting MAY damage those house parts which in most cases are flimsily built anyway. Feel free to dangle your participle if you want. I won't. I agree about the stabilizers because they tend to be installed at the extreme points on the corners.

EDIT adding; My last comment on this subject. I have seen several owner's manuals for leveling systems and the ones I have seen specifically state not to raise a tire off the ground. If you know of one that specifically states it's safe or desirable to do so please inform me

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by chunker21

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EDIT adding; My last comment on this subject. I have seen several owner's manuals for leveling systems and the ones I have seen specifically state not to raise a tire off the ground. If you know of one that specifically states it's safe or desirable to do so please inform me

EQ Smart Level has no such warning. There is no mention anywhere in the manual about wheels off the ground. EQ Smart Level has 2 statements

Do move around inside the coach while leveling

Do not work under the rig without adequate jack stands.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by chunker21

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Not necessarily true. The wheels/suspension supports the frame, and thus the house parts, at designed locations by the chassis manufacturer. The levelers are put on by the house manufacturer and have no specific reinforcing to the frame at those locations. Suspending the house on the levelers MAY cause twisting that the house and components can't sustain. That twisting MAY damage those house parts which in most cases are flimsily built anyway. Feel free to dangle your participle if you want. I won't. I agree about the stabilizers because they tend to be installed at the extreme points on the corners.

EDIT adding; My last comment on this subject. I have seen several owner's manuals for leveling systems and the ones I have seen specifically state not to raise a tire off the ground. If you know of one that specifically states it's safe or desirable to do so please inform me

Any time you diagonally traverse an unlevel surface (like pulling into a fuel stop with a steep apron), a twisting force is applied to the frame - not just the wheel connecting points. No doubt Ford and Freightliner figured these forces into their frame engineering.

Now- there are masochists out there who will INTENTIONALLY fully extend a single jack without the other three in contact with the ground. I won't even speculate what COULD happen, but possibly not a desirable result. ALWAYS start by extending ALL FOUR JACKS to ground contact... then proceed to level from there.

The explicit instructions about NOT raising wheels with a hydraulic leveling jack likely came from the manufacturer's legal department... aimed at liability claims from people "using a tool for it's unintended purpose". A legal "I told you so" aimed at the masochists mentioned above who harbor a secret death wish.

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by chunker21

The frame bends and twists. That puts stress on the body, windows, doors, and slides potentially creating an out of square condition. The wheels are attached to the frame in a reinforced and built up area. Jacks not so much, just attached to some point the RV manufacturer decides. A wheel dangling means the frame is supported in a location that wasn't designed for it by the chassis manufacturer. Even the relatively heavy duty Freightliner chassis used on most DP will twist and that twisting frame affects the body attached to it. Indications you might see on the body are a door not quite in square, window that doesn't slide as well, slide grabbing. As fragile as the schwintek slides are especially on big slides, keeping the "box square" should be a priority.

Me, I don't dangle a wheel and carry boards to put under them if necessary. I also manually level because auto leveling overshoots level and extends the jacks much further than necessary to achieve a level condition. To each their own though, I subscribe to the practice of knowing why I do something or a procedure.

If it’s level in both directions how would it be “twisted”?

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I won't dwell... but dk... If all four hydraulic jacks are in solid contact with the ground, what difference does it make if a wheel/wheels are suspended? With a properly rated and installed system, it should be near impossible for a jack to break from the frame rails... think of a house supported on stilts.

I don’t think it’s so much a matter of the lifting capacity of the jacks as it is that jacks - especially at full extension - don’t offer very much lateral stability. Having the tires against the ground, even if they aren’t supporting much weight, provides this.

[taylorbob1]

Originally Posted by MJC62

I have no personal experience with HWH and my LCI system works fine. I will revise my statement that it is a ""better" system. That said, what I do see, based on the HWH website the Kickdown system folds the piston/jack up in a horizontal position when not in use. For a chassis with limited ground clearance that is a great design.
The lowest points on our ACE are the LCI leveling jacks. If you have ever driven a motorhome down a forest service road to reach an out of the way National Forest Service campground you will appreciate the extra clearance. We enjoy spending time in out of the way campgrounds and not having to worry about ripping off a leveling jack while getting there is priceless.

Aunt JoJo's Bus clearly purchased an excellent product for their Axis.

HWH kick-down jacks are the supreme after-market hydraulic leveling system for an E series chassis & provides the most clearance of any leveling system available when in the retracted position.
And, the touch-pad auto leveling controller takes minimal space inside cockpit (vs the joy-stick controller that I have, a large box on the driver's side floor).

As I stated earlier, I suspect that the system was installed properly and works as intended (but may need an auto-level feature re-calibration).

Suggest that the OP take a deep breath, be patient & make a call to HWH tech dept for assistance.
And the result will be an enjoyable & trouble-free leveling experience.

[ducksface]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

If it’s level in both directions how would it be “twisted”?

The process of leveling causes it.
The level does not.

The ground contact patch from suspension and tires to hard mount tiny frame mount is the transition from bouncy to ridged.


None of us Will ever have an rv long enough to worry about any of it.

I'll have to see a picture proof of any, ever, twisted frame that can't be fixed and totalled or even radically affected the RV before I'll even acknowledge it's ever existed let alone something of any normal consequence. Three inch-ish flex isnt a permanent twist.

Since all we know about the self levelers installed on the op is they didn't work on a flat drive way I'm not convinced they don't work perfectly.

Maybe I missed reading about how it failed.
Lift kept trying
Lift refused to keep trying
RV Was level so all the legs didn't come down, or did but did not need to 'lift' the coach.
Lift refused to work at all.

Sometimes I miss a bit.

And
We seem to have gone from our normal fallback argument of:
Cw transient unknowledgable master of none employee
To:
The cw employee excercising the jacks is infallible.

[ducksface]

Lemon law is for
Original manufactures equipment
Wiith regard to vehicles.

Consumer goods lemon law requires a certain number of repair attempts/time before you can even begin to file a claim.

[MJC62]

Originally Posted by taylorbob1

Aunt JoJo's Bus clearly purchased an excellent product for their Axis.

HWH kick-down jacks are the supreme after-market hydraulic leveling system for an E series chassis & provides the most clearance of any leveling system available when in the retracted position.
And, the touch-pad auto leveling controller takes minimal space inside cockpit (vs the joy-stick controller that I have, a large box on the driver's side floor).

As I stated earlier, I suspect that the system was installed properly and works as intended (but may need an auto-level feature re-calibration).

Suggest that the OP take a deep breath, be patient & make a call to HWH tech dept for assistance.
And the result will be an enjoyable & trouble-free leveling experience.

Agree 100% on calling HWH! Let them get after CW to get the system calibrated correctly IMHO, if the OP still is unhappy with system after it is calibrated and working properly then would be the time to cross the litigation bridge.

[chunker21]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

EQ Smart Level has no such warning. There is no mention anywhere in the manual about wheels off the ground. EQ Smart Level has 2 statements

Do move around inside the coach while leveling

Do not work under the rig without adequate jack stands.

Thanks I'm informed now. I thought I read it in the owner's manual I got with my system. EQ Smart-level.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I won't dwell... but dk... If all four hydraulic jacks are in solid contact with the ground, what difference does it make if a wheel/wheels are suspended? With a properly rated and installed system, it should be near impossible for a jack to break from the frame rails... think of a house supported on stilts.

I was gonna answer this, but I have read too much; so I won't dwell either.

But I will say, I never have my wheels suspended in air when camping, and I never had a problem or a need to. I only see where it may occur when my auto levelers seem to reject wanting to level based on it's initial dropping of the jacks. When my Auto Level don't level, I go and see why, in some cases I can just add my wooden blocks and try again presto, its done. It is Auto Level or bust for me, I have to pull my manual out to remember how to manual level anyway because it is not a need for me. Really shocked at how many that do not Auto Level as primary

If I get pressed for an answer on why I do not leave suspended, my official response is what happens if a squirrel gets under that wheel and I drop the jack and it crushes it

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by ducksface

Lemon law is for
Original manufactures equipment
Wiith regard to vehicles.

Consumer goods lemon law requires a certain number of repair attempts/time before you can even begin to file a claim.

Nobody said this was covered by a "lemon law" most of which don't cover MHs anyway. But a Lemon Law Attorney is experienced in more consumer protection laws and cases then the narrow Automobile Lemon Law.

[chunker21]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

I was gonna answer this, but I have read too much; so I won't dwell either.

But I will say, I never have my wheels suspended in air when camping, and I never had a problem or a need to. I only see where it may occur when my auto levelers seem to reject wanting to level based on it's initial dropping of the jacks. When my Auto Level don't level, I go and see why, in some cases I can just add my wooden blocks and try again presto, its done. It is Auto Level or bust for me, I have to pull my manual out to remember how to manual level anyway because it is not a need for me. Really shocked at how many that do not Auto Level as primary

If I get pressed for an answer on why I do not leave suspended, my official response is what happens if a squirrel gets under that wheel and I drop the jack and it crushes it

Whether the auto level feature works depends on which system you have. The omni had the LCI Ultra level which in my opinion and experience is the lowest level entry leveling system made. It was violent in auto level especially. Difficult to "feather" when using manually but better. Autolevel use was out of the question and yes I set the null a few times trying to make it civil. Ask Judge what he thinks. In my keystone Raptor it had the Level Up 6 point and the auto level worked well and was civil. My past Itasca DP had an HWH, 625 I believe, and it worked well in all phases and I used the auto feature with it. The Equalizer Smart Level in the Valencia is civil but far overshoots level so I'm manually adjusting. I'll recheck the null a few more time to see if I can get it to behave. So the answer about using the auto level feature is "it depends".

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

...
If I get pressed for an answer on why I do not leave suspended, my official response is what happens if a squirrel gets under that wheel and I drop the jack and it crushes it

When in West Virginia... "There's your dinner"!

[taylorbob1]

Since some of you are talking about it…
Interesting thread with varied opinions on auto leveling

https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f4...ers-29863.html

[Pete'sMH]

[QUOTE=ducksface;341815]The process of leveling causes it.
The level does not.


But how could it be any more “twisted” than the ground under it? The coach is subject to twisting all the time. Think of turning into a driveway where one wheel goes up over the curb cut before the others.

[EA37TS]

Is it possible to get this back on topic. Another discussion on the pros and cons of auto level is not neede.

[ducksface]

Back on topic is:

Read what's not said more than what is said when an op posts.
This op says she has no background experience.
The story is short and one-sided and so incomplete.
We didn't even know HOW it doesn't work.
We didn't even know if it moves.
And yet....


ASK for details.
ASK, then tell.

Mom, something on me is broken'
This is how you you repair a compound tibia fracture
'No, it's not that'
This is how you repair the middle east problem
'Nope'
Then what?
'My butt is broken because it's cracked'(runs off giggling)

Two diagnosis based on nothing.



https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f8...tml#post341829
Same type post.

[chunker21]

[QUOTE=Pete'sMH;341976]

Originally Posted by ducksface

The process of leveling causes it.
The level does not.


But how could it be any more “twisted” than the ground under it? The coach is subject to twisting all the time. Think of turning into a driveway where one wheel goes up over the curb cut before the others.

Yes but slides are not extended while pulling into a driveway nor are doors opened.

Let me put the issue this way. We pull into a site that isn't level. Reply the leveling system and it raises the left from tire off the ground. Now the framer is supported by 3 wheels and 1 jack which isn't installed on the most substantial part of the fame like the suspension is. The frame twists, slides bind, doors hang up, etc.