Charging Issue

Chinasrig · 02-05-2023, 04:34 PM

Good Morning,

We've encountered a charging issues in the last month that I'm having problems isolating.

The rig is a 2015 Vegas 25.1 with a Tbird and it's not charging the coach battery. In fact it appears to be discharging it. The house batteries are charging correctly. The coach battery was replaced in June.

The TBird appears to be working correctly per the test procedure in Ed Felkers trouble shooting tips.

Any of our electrical gurus have any ideas.

Thanks
Dennis

**16ACE27** · 02-05-2023, 05:44 PM

What's a "Tbird"?

OldWEB · 02-05-2023, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

What's a "Tbird"?

One of yer members!
tbird

DavidEM · 02-06-2023, 12:15 AM

Trombetta/BIRD maybe?

David

Chinasrig · 02-06-2023, 02:57 PM

Yes Sorry it is just BIRD (Bi-directional Isolator Relay Delay.) It in conjunction with the Trombetta control the charging voltage between the house and coach batteries if I understand it correctly.

The testing procedure I was referring to is in the charging section of the Felker document.

DavidEM · 02-06-2023, 04:05 PM

I am not sure how valid that testing procedure is. I do know that the TBIRDS do fail quite frequently, usually just the T.

That is why Thor switched to the Precision Circuits BIM 160 for later Axis models.

David

lwmcguir · 02-06-2023, 05:54 PM

Check your voltage across the solenoid and you will know if it is connected when it shouldn't be!

**16ACE27** · 02-06-2023, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lwmcguir

Check your voltage across the solenoid and you will know if it is connected when it shouldn't be!

Or vice-versa.

OldWEB · 02-06-2023, 10:16 PM

Some test procedures, not too technical, easy to follow.
Just the BIRD.

SDMiramar · 02-07-2023, 05:21 AM

Sounds like an isolator issue, I have a brand new BIM160 I pulled from my 2022 rig and replaced it with a Lithium one if you need a deal on one. The Birds had issues with open circuits allowing current to be pulled from one bank or the other, especially when mounted near or in the engine bay. The solder connections expand under high heat and short out.

Chinasrig · 02-07-2023, 04:06 PM

Yea I did retest it yesterday and I'm getting entirely different readings across the Trombetta than I should be and the unit itself is warm to the touch. Contacted the manufacturer yesterday to see if they could give me the correct part number and got a response this morning asking me what the part number was.

Does anyone happen to know what part I should order? I'll keep looking and if I find it I'll post it.

Beau388 · 02-07-2023, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chinasrig

Yea I did retest it yesterday and I'm getting entirely different readings across the Trombetta than I should be and the unit itself is warm to the touch. Contacted the manufacturer yesterday to see if they could give me the correct part number and got a response this morning asking me what the part number was.

Does anyone happen to know what part I should order? I'll keep looking and if I find it I'll post it.

Trombetta has been bought by Standard Motor Parts but is still in business under its name. They no longer market the separate control module, but do market as smart bi-bidirectional relay that has the control module molded into the relay the PN is TR-16243. The name is 200 amp magnetic latching battery separator.

**16ACE27** · 02-07-2023, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chinasrig

Yea I did retest it yesterday and I'm getting entirely different readings across the Trombetta than I should be and the unit itself is warm to the touch. Contacted the manufacturer yesterday to see if they could give me the correct part number and got a response this morning asking me what the part number was.

Does anyone happen to know what part I should order? I'll keep looking and if I find it I'll post it.

What are your readings in what conditions?

Should be o VDC across the major terminals when charging (plugged into SP/Generator running, or the engine running) and a few tenths or a volt or two when not charging (the difference between the chassis battery voltage and the house battery bank voltage).

The Trombetta pulls an amp of current continuously when energized (charging taking place) and the coil area does get hot - normal.

There are a number of continuous duty multi hundred amp replacement relays on the jungle site. Here's an example of one:

https://www.amazon.com/Mobile-Audio-...dp/B082HMDMLG/

Most of the time these relays carry under 50 amps but this is also the relay that connects the battery banks together for emergency starting so the higher current handling the better.

Beau388 · 02-07-2023, 07:40 PM

https://www.waytekwire.com/item/8062...ching-Battery/

**16ACE27** · 02-07-2023, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beau388

https://www.waytekwire.com/item/8062...ching-Battery/

Not what is paired with a BIRD or IRD:

The Tromebetta brand relay paired with a BIRD/IRD has only two control (solenoid) connections, is NOT a latching relay, and costs half that price for the OEM replacement.

Chinasrig · 02-08-2023, 04:40 PM

While testing I was taking readings on the Trombetta terminals under different charging conditions and at no time did I get a reading that was even close to equal.

With the onboard switch in the USE position I was getting approximately 13.6V (charger voltage) across both the house batteries and the right lead on the Trombetta but the reading on the left lead was the same as the chassis battery condition at that moment.

When doing the testing with the motor running I was getting a reading of approximately 14.4V (generator output) across the left lead and the current house battery voltage across the right.

With the motor off and the onboard switch in STORE position both leads on the Trombetta corresponded with the voltage of the associated batteries. At no time did I get a reading that indicated that the batteries were being charged at the same time from any source.

It was mentioned that this might affect the emergency start function and I remembered then that when I first noticed that the chassis battery had been drained to the point that it would not even attempt to turn the engine over that the emergency start switch had no effect.

To follow up on what I posted yesterday I found the power distribution diagram for our rig on my owners site on the TMC webpage and it showed the solenoid with a part number 684-1251-018. A google search did not match this number but did show a 684-1251-012-02. Trombetta did confirm that this was the correct number that they sold to Thor. As mentioned above they do not sell to the public but they did provide the information for the southeast distributor and I ordered the part yesterday. I'll follow up when I can get it installed.

**16ACE27** · 02-08-2023, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chinasrig

While testing I was taking readings on the Trombetta terminals under different charging conditions and at no time did I get a reading that was even close to equal.

With the onboard switch in the USE position I was getting approximately 13.6V (charger voltage) across both the house batteries and the right lead on the Trombetta but the reading on the left lead was the same as the chassis battery condition at that moment.

When doing the testing with the motor running I was getting a reading of approximately 14.4V (generator output) across the left lead and the current house battery voltage across the right.

With the motor off and the onboard switch in STORE position both leads on the Trombetta corresponded with the voltage of the associated batteries. At no time did I get a reading that indicated that the batteries were being charged at the same time from any source.

It was mentioned that this might affect the emergency start function and I remembered then that when I first noticed that the chassis battery had been drained to the point that it would not even attempt to turn the engine over that the emergency start switch had no effect.

To follow up on what I posted yesterday I found the power distribution diagram for our rig on my owners site on the TMC webpage and it showed the solenoid with a part number 684-1251-018. A google search did not match this number but did show a 684-1251-012-02. Trombetta did confirm that this was the correct number that they sold to Thor. As mentioned above they do not sell to the public but they did provide the information for the southeast distributor and I ordered the part yesterday. I'll follow up when I can get it installed.

sounds like you have if figured out and have the correct replacement part coming.

Chinasrig · 02-10-2023, 06:42 PM

Well good news and bad news. I installed the new Trombetta Solenoid switch this morning and everything appears to be working correctly.

The bad news, since our rig had the Trombetta I assumed that we had the BIRD but I'll be damned if I can find it. I've search every nook and crany that I know of on the rig with no luck. Contacted Thor to see if they could help me out and they sent another copy of the power distribution diagram (same one I already had) and the representative and I both noticed that there is neither a BIRD or BCC on the schematic. He stated that the BIRD was usually used on the diesel models.

Any ideas where it might be located? 2015 Vegas 25.1. Is it possible for the charging system to work without either one of these?

With my luck it's probably located beside the 50A radio fuse I've been searching for for 2 years.

**EA37TS** · 02-10-2023, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chinasrig

Well good news and bad news. I installed the new Trombetta Solenoid switch this morning and everything appears to be working correctly.

The bad news, since our rig had the Trombetta I assumed that we had the BIRD but I'll be damned if I can find it. I've search every nook and crany that I know of on the rig with no luck. Contacted Thor to see if they could help me out and they sent another copy of the power distribution diagram (same one I already had) and the representative and I both noticed that there is neither a BIRD or BCC on the schematic. He stated that the BIRD was usually used on the diesel models.

Any ideas where it might be located? 2015 Vegas 25.1. Is it possible for the charging system to work without either one of these?

With my luck it's probably located beside the 50A radio fuse I've been searching for for 2 years.

BIRD is used on gassers as well. On my Challenger it was located in the battery compartment. Some are located in the engine compartment.

Charging systems can work without a BIRD fit you chassis battery won’t charge off shore power or generator and the house battery won’t charge when the engine is running.

**16ACE27** · 02-10-2023, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chinasrig

Well good news and bad news. I installed the new Trombetta Solenoid switch this morning and everything appears to be working correctly.

The bad news, since our rig had the Trombetta I assumed that we had the BIRD but I'll be damned if I can find it. I've search every nook and crany that I know of on the rig with no luck. Contacted Thor to see if they could help me out and they sent another copy of the power distribution diagram (same one I already had) and the representative and I both noticed that there is neither a BIRD or BCC on the schematic. He stated that the BIRD was usually used on the diesel models.

Any ideas where it might be located? 2015 Vegas 25.1. Is it possible for the charging system to work without either one of these?

With my luck it's probably located beside the 50A radio fuse I've been searching for for 2 years.

BS - Used on many gas MHs.

Have you downloaded/reviewed Ed Felkner's crowd sourced Axis/Vegas manual? Check page 41 and Appendix 4 (among other locations).

https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f1...nual-4961.html

You may also like: