F-150 Lightning tows 10,000 pounds

[Chance]

Originally Posted by RACarvalho

....cut....

0.55miles/Kwh means you need at least a 500Kwh battery in order to have a decent range towing... (not even getting into the "how long it takes to charge" issue).

.....cut.....

To be fair, and to clarify, that 0.55 miles per kWh was going uphill. On way up they used 81% of battery capacity, and on way down reported +/- 21%. Even so, do the math and that’s still a lot of energy consumption towing trailer mostly downhill on way back to office.


And yes, it takes a lot of battery weight to provide sustain power for any duration. Just read that Hummer pickup weighs 9,000 pounds of which almost 3,000 is battery. And it is estimated at just over 200 kWh.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chance

Yeah, but a lot of the success electric cars are seeing is because they have such great aerodynamics, giving them great highway range. The Lucid achieves around 5 miles per kWh, while vans that weigh twice as much consume 4 to 5 times as much battery energy per mile. Normally larger vehicles have less drag per unit weight than smaller vehicles, but when we compare +/- 5,000-pound autos with coefficient of drag of only 0.200 Lucid or 0.208 Tesla S (going from memory) to a trailer shaped almost as bad as a parachute, then horrible highway range should be expected.

What if you apply that same aerodynamic profile to a gas car?
My kid have a Mazda 3 with Skyactiv engine and it does 45mpg on highway...
That is a 2012 car and skyactiv have gone through two generations since then...
These pesky japanese... Why don't they want the Chinese Communist Party to be the new arabs???

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chance

To be fair, and to clarify, that 0.55 miles per kWh was going uphill. On way up they used 81% of battery capacity, and on way down reported +/- 21%. Even so, do the math and that’s still a lot of energy consumption towing trailer mostly downhill on way back to office.


And yes, it takes a lot of battery weight to provide sustain power for any duration. Just read that Hummer pickup weighs 9,000 pounds of which almost 3,000 is battery. And it is estimated at just over 200 kWh.

Several videos on youtube of people towing small campers with tesla model 3 and reporting 0.8miles/Kwh on flat ground...
Your throw some hills and/or a bigger camper in the mix and 0.55miles/kwh towing a camper is right there...

[Lt Keefer]

I'll cut to the chase. When JB Hunt, Werner Enterprises, Schneider National or Swift Enterprises start equipping their fleets with electric trucks I will know the technology is proven. Until then, for towing or road trips, I will use an ICE.

We all know that manufacturer testing for promotional purposes goes through many versions until it gets to the one that portrays the most amount of promise. We all remember high MPG ratings that we were never able to obtain. The same is true for towing capabilities on these new electric trucks. It's all bull spit.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Lt Keefer

I'll cut to the chase. When JB Hunt, Werner Enterprises, Schneider National or Swift Enterprises start equipping their fleets with electric trucks I will know the technology is proven. Until then, for towing or road trips, I will use an ICE.

That is a good approach.
I personally will consider electric when private jets and SuperYachts move to electric..
If not even rich people are paying for that, why should I?

Fedex and UPS use gasoline trucks to deliver stuff in cities.
If Fedex/UPS can't justify not even diesel on their trucks, when do you think they will use electrics...???

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by RACarvalho

That is a good approach.
I personally will consider electric when private jets and SuperYachts move to electric..
If not even rich people are paying for that, why should I?

Fedex and UPS use gasoline trucks to deliver stuff in cities.
If Fedex/UPS can't justify not even diesel on their trucks, when do you think they will use electrics...???

Both FEDEX and UPS have expanded into CNG trucks for several years now with UPS adding 6000 CNG trucks by the end of this year. FEDEX has even delved into hydrogen fuel cell tractors. Amazon has a lot of all electric delivery vehicles.

Let them keep experimenting and I'll wait until all the results are in.

[ducksface]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Both FEDEX and UPS have expanded into CNG trucks for several years now with UPS adding 6000 CNG trucks by the end of this year. FEDEX has even delved into hydrogen fuel cell tractors. Amazon has a lot of all electric delivery vehicles.

Let them keep experimenting and I'll wait until all the results are in.

Exactly.
Those who have adapted early are beta testers, not environmental heroes, no matter what they tell you.

Electric vehicle comparatively fails in every way except the ego of the adapters/adopters.
I always ask an electric vehicle owner:
'So, what alpha ice vehicle sits next to your beta electric?'

Except for the hardest core urban urbanites, believe me, there's an ice vehicle sitting next to that electric toy.

But some here on this forum don't use their rv toilet, so what's a guy to think?

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by Lt Keefer

I'll cut to the chase. When JB Hunt, Werner Enterprises, Schneider National or Swift Enterprises start equipping their fleets with electric trucks I will know the technology is proven. Until then, for towing or road trips, I will use an ICE.

No doubt: ICE is nice!

[Chance]

Originally Posted by RACarvalho

......cut......

Fedex and UPS use gasoline trucks to deliver stuff in cities.
If Fedex/UPS can't justify not even diesel on their trucks, when do you think they will use electrics...???

Gasoline is considered cleaner than diesel by most of their customers, and you know what they say about customers. Also, gasoline is probably more economical overall than diesel for vehicles that don’t drive long distances daily.

Regarding electrification, FedEx has already started receiving GM’s BrightDrop electric vans. And UPS reportedly placed a large order of UK’s Arrival electric vehicles some time back, though I’m not sure how that partnership is going. If I recall correctly, at one point Arrival had difficulties.

I expect many companies feel pressure from green customers, and believe they have to take action whether they agree it’s a good idea or not.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chance

... I expect many companies feel pressure from green customers, and believe they have to take action whether they agree it’s a good idea or not.

Everyone is "green" until you need to put your hand in your pocket and come up with double the amount to buy less so I doubt that many consumers are really willing to pay the price.... Just look for EV sales numbers compared to ICE...

Regardless, nowadays when it comes to power plants and energy, the rule is Forget the customers...

Besides the fact that it is true these companies are "investing" in this technology , one needs to ask two questions:
1 - Where the $ to invest in this technology comes from if even we the people can make simple calculations and figure out that this is a bad business decision?
in many cases, a ton of Government incentives and special credit lines are involved so basically government funding the "investment".
2 - (the reason for my statement above):
CEOs are terrified of government treats.
Governments are not hiding anymore that they will punish companies that don't fall in line with the policy, even if this company is Tesla!!! (same behavior that CCP has in China) so regardless of what the customer thinks (or can afford), companies will blindly obey the (corrupt) Green New Deal directions and you and me will pay for it (if we can afford) and when we can't afford a vehicle anymore we can take a bus or ride our bicycles to work....
That time Henry Ford put a production line together because he wanted his employees to be able to afford the cars they produce is long gone...

[Bob Nodine]

What boggles my mind is General Motors is claiming that by 2035 everything they make will be electric. That is only 13 years away and I don't see battery technology making a lot of advances in that time frame not to mention the drain on the supply of rare earth elements. I will be almost 89 in 13 years so it probably will not matter much to me if I am lucky enough to still be around then. For sure the younger generation will not RV the same way us old fossils have. If we are going to become a nation of electric vehicles we had better start building more nuclear power plants, like now. I have spent most of my working career developing uranium enrichment technology and it saddens me to say that currently we do not have a domestic means of enriching uranium. It seems our politicians are very short sighted. I guess when the oil companies see the supply of crude oil running out they will start shifting their industry to other sources of energy and then the lobbyist will start pushing congress to do their biding for their new found energy source. In the mean time we keep using crude oil at an unprecedented rate not worrying about how we will make all the other things that come from crude oil besides gasoline and diesel when it finally runs out. Notice I have not mentioned the environment because to me the real problem is our dependency on crude oil. It is the life blood of our nation and almost everything is affected by the price of crude oil. We complain about electric vehicles but EV's combined with nuclear power could significantly reduce our dependency on crude oil.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Bob Nodine

What boggles my mind is General Motors is claiming that by 2035 everything they make will be electric. ....we had better start building more nuclear power plants.... I guess when the oil companies see the supply of crude oil running out ...

GM statement:
It is amazing what CEOs say when they are trying to please a Government that already demonstrated they (Gov.) are willing to pass legislation that will obliterate your business regardless if the technology is ready or not...
I believe this is the case with this GM statement.

Nuclear:
The real big problem with Nuclear is that it is cheap energy and those with the pen writing the laws hate when the poor have access to good/cheap things... But it is not only generation, transmission and delivery also needs a huge improvement - Charging 400Kwh (a 500Kwh battery) in 15 minutes means a transmission rate of 1.6Gigawatts/hour in the hands of the customer... If a technology comes where you can charge in 5 minutes that would be a transmission rate of 4.8 Gigawatts/hour and that at the customer hands!!!

Oil:
Remember when they said that we would run out of oil by 1980???
Humanity, all modern society, not only US, depends on oil way more than gasoline and diesel and we (Humanity) have enough oil for thousands of years to come.
But oil have two problems: 1 - it is cheap energy for the poor, 2 - Generates tons of CO2 which help plants to produce more, reducing the price of food and avoiding large scale famine and food shortage in the world... That is a reason Bill Gates is pushing CO2 reduction and buying farms...

[Bob Denman]

Question: Where are we going to get all of this wonderful electricity from?
Will unicorns be crapping it in our front yards?
Our powergrid is already stretched to the point of summertime brown-outs in a lot of areas. Does anyone think that the existing system can provide enough juice for all of these new EVs?

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Question: Where are we going to get all of this wonderful electricity from?
Will unicorns be crapping it in our front yards?
Our powergrid is already stretched to the point of summertime brown-outs in a lot of areas. Does anyone think that the existing system can provide enough juice for all of these new EVs?

There are many questions we don't know the answer for yet but one fact is for sure:

We will all pay for everything in full and many times over.

As for me, I'm buying solar panels and batteries in order to create a back up system that I can run the fridge and furnace a little longer...
You know, the 100gal of gas that I keep at home can only run the generator for so long...

I really don't expect the grid to improve, the opposite, I saw a big reduction in reliability in the last 10 years...

[Chance]

In my opinion electric vehicles can make a lot of sense sometimes. In other cases they make very little sense to me. It’s the right tool for the job kind of thing. Granted, as technology improves that line will evolve/change, but for time being why not focus where EVs are most practical first?

A great advantage of electric cars is that design options are made easier. Designers can interchange FWD, RWD, or AWD with little effort, or include different amount of battery capacity depending on buyer needs and or budget. Mostly, I like that EVs can be shaped for very low coefficient of drag to make them more efficient. There are already cars getting 5 miles of real-world range per kWh of battery capacity, and they are not particularly small or light. And performance is much greater than anyone really needs, providing room for improvement.

My question is why in the world would any company put 200 kWh of battery in a pickup truck just so that it can barely pull a trailer a useful distance instead of making 4 or 5 cars with 40 to 50 kWh each with a range of 200 to 250 miles that would replace 4 or 5 conventional cars?

I can see why the Tesla Semi and Cybertruck have been delayed. If you have limited battery manufacturing capacity (or limited grid power, etc.), why invest something like 800 kWh of batteries to replace one Diesel engine in a semi instead of building at least 16 city-oriented cars?

Using same logic, why are Ford and other companies trying so hard to develop electric pickups at this time? I know that buyers have been shifting from sedans to SUVs and trucks for years, and perhaps they know market for electric sedans is too limited, or too crowded, or they can’t make enough profit. Or do they see trucks like F-150 as mostly commercial vehicles that don’t travel or tow very far?

I’m just confused by emphasis on building electric pickups, trucks, semis, motorhomes, etc. Ford now has one electric SUV, one van, and one pickup truck. Where are their electric cars?

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chance

... I like that EVs can be shaped for very low coefficient of drag to make them more efficient....

I can see why the Tesla Semi and Cybertruck have been delayed. If you have limited battery manufacturing capacity ...

Using same logic, why are Ford and other companies trying so hard to develop electric pickups at this time?

ICE cars can be shaped like that, propulsion have little to do with external shape and cx of the vehicle.

The reason Tesla Semi and truck are delayed is because their cost is ludicrous and not because battery capacity.
You can build a semi truck with a 1MW battery but who would buy a semi tht carry less cargo (DOT regulations on axle weight) for $1 million??? That would be a counter argument for the cause....
If you want to see an e-truck that makes sense look at Cummins e-truck.
It was 144kw battery pack and can run 100km on a single charge.
Made for dryage work at ports. THAT truck makes sense BECAUSE legislators said no diesel inside the port so or you have electric or you don't have business....
Anything else in terms of trucks is just power point presentation or way more expensive than diesel (not even getting into gasoline cost...) with less capability.

Ford and GM are in a self induced pickle (on purpose or not I left to the theorists):
They decided to dump big sedans in order to be "global" then they where surprised that Americans wont buy their small sedans - Those that want small sedans know you are better off buying Japanese, South Corea or German...
So they gave up their differential (full size sedans) to try to compete where the competition is way better and now are saying Americans don't want more sedans and are moving to big SUVs and Trucks... Interesting they say that when Toyota, Honda, KIA, Hyundai, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, VW, etc all keep offering sedans...
So they positioned themselves as truck and (big)SUV producers and now are facing the reality that what their customer (Americans) really want is space and if that customer settles for less space it will go to someone else... therefore the huge push to try to sell trucks... it is because is what is left in their offering....
Anyone that have driven a big sedan knows it is more comfortable than a SUV and the new generation is rediscovering that (more below)...
To make things worst, their marketing dept. lives in another galaxy and thinks it is a good idea to offer an F150 for $70K....
Bottom line: They ignored their customer base in favor of globalization and now are/will be paying the price.
I would be the first in line to buy a Crown Victoria size sedan that looks as good a tesla and have a V8 in it for $35K....
But since they didn't have that so I had to buy an F150XLT....
As for the future, I have 3 teenagers (boys) at home and they are all sold out on the Mazdas, BMWs, Toyotas, etc SEDANS...

[Travelin' Texans]

Originally Posted by Chance

I’m just confused by emphasis on building electric pickups, trucks, semis, motorhomes, etc. Ford now has one electric SUV, one van, and one pickup truck. Where are their electric cars?

But if want any one of them be prepared to wait the biggest part of a year after you've ordered it.
I bought a new Kia Sorento a year ago, 4 cyl turbo, that so has 24000 miles on it & has been as good, or better, than any of the past American built cars or trucks we've owned.
Went to the dealer for an oil change a couple weeks ago, they ONLY 3 new cars on their lot, 100s of used of all makes & models along about a dozen used Teslas, I'm assuming the novelty for at least a dozen folks wore off already.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Chance

I’m just confused by emphasis on building electric pickups, trucks, semis, motorhomes, etc. Ford now has one electric SUV, one van, and one pickup truck. Where are their electric cars?

Ford declared they would no longer make "cars" (sedans) a couple of years ago:

Ford announced plans to discontinue all of its sedans back in 2018, and it's achieved that with the demise of the Fusion. The Focus, Fiesta, and Taurus have all left the scene as well, leaving the Ecosport compact crossover as Ford's entry-level offering.

https://www.businessinsider.com/disc...vel%20offering.

[Chance]

Towing data is becoming available now that confirms affect on driving range. The first discussion involves towing a 23-foot Airstream trailer with Long Range battery F-150 Lightning.

Bottom line is 0.8 miles of range per kWh at 65 MPH. Owner reports about twice that without trailer (1.5 ~ 1.8), so roughly 50% range reduction. Keep in mind trailer is +/- 6,000 pounds (electric F-150 rated up to 10,000 pounds max) and relatively aerodynamic (which is even more important than weight in my opinion).


https://www.f150lightningforum.com/2...tream-trailer/


A different source pulled a slightly longer Airstream with a Rivian pickup and got 1.15 ~ 1.18 miles per kWh but by driving 55 MPH. Both trucks are similar if we adjust for speed which greatly affects economy due to aerodynamic drag.


https://youtu.be/AUD3deFYUgM

.

[ducksface]

Two things:
Look at the picture of where they chose to test the vehicle, the roadbed the chose and the towed they chose.
135psi(insert ridiculously high result skewing psi here)tires? Why not, its already a lie.

So can we assume a trip down I-40 in the West is a 75% reduction under normal traffic circumstances?
Can we assume any non-laboratory change of any sort equated to a percentage of that trailer drag so anywhere but their test bed is an instant 15 to 50% reduction...without the trailer?



They think we're ALL fools because the rah rah is so loud from the actual fools, soo they print things for the lowest common denominator. Their decibel/logic detector is set to 'shrill'(because it suits them).

If a 300 word one-sided shill story sways someone to buy a $87,000 vehicle, what does this say about that someone?
It says I don't want lumped into their realm/group/thought process.

The speculations are fun to argue about.
But when the RELIGION of it says you're going straight to hell for not believing...its time to ignore The very loud zealots. The priest robes have always been 'hey! Look at me!'