Ford Electric Vehicles Rendered Unprofitable

[Chance]

Highway driving range seems to be improving quickly. At least for automobiles where engineering is being used wisely to reduce aero drag, rolling resistance, and improve energy transmission efficiency.

Also, to previous point made by DF, I would not commingle issues of battery size and vehicle cheapness which are not necessarily connected at a technical or design level. Granted, they influence each other, but a smaller battery doesn’t mean it has to be a “poor man’s” electric car.

Based on recent technical advancements, luxury electric cars similar to the Tesla 3 could be fully functional with as little as 50 kWh of battery capacity. Tesla is already doing 4 miles of range per kWh, Lucid is over 500 miles with 113 kWh, and Mercedes recently introduced a road-going concept (pre-production) that went over 1,000 km (620 miles) and still had plenty of range to reach 700 miles total. And it wasn’t achieved by adding more and more battery, but rather by making it more efficient. It is quite expensive.
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[ducksface]

It's not only expensive, it's laboratory lies.
Lucid isn't exactly a font of truth either.

Things Will possibly proceed toward usefulness.
When things are fully useful, I'll fully consider.
I also do not have a jet pack. They're available, I'm just not so mmmeeeee tttoooo as to have one in advance of the pack.(please do not say how brave those folks are to help us advance)
What do we really think of those folks who paid $20k over msrp so they can have the new Bronco? Should we think any differently of electric car folk?

What should we think when almost all electric folk tout 80% at the rarest of chargers as the norm? Should we think them honest or should we think they tend to shill as a justification of their want?

[Chance]

One of the things I like about the Vision EQXX is that engineers are not going after ridiculous and impractical goals like 1,000+ horsepower and 0-60 MPH in 2 seconds. What is that really all about given reason BEV manufacturers are telling us why we should be buying Battery Electric Vehicles in the first place?

Below are “real world” results. Even if Cd goes from 0.17 for concept car to 0.20 for final production car, range should still be exceptional.
.

[ducksface]

The picture shows 3mph(ish) on a flat.
And
Parked on flat ground at sea level.
It allows for
Reasonable expectation
when their funding is called in to question.
'We showed you how we accomplished it'. 'We showed you nothing else. Your assumptions are your assumptions, our pictures are fact'

There's so much to read into what they don't say or what they show.
That's how marketing and funding work.

Why, in any world ever, would anyone believe anyone in sales whole heartedly?
They're car salesmen seeking government funding.
They're nothing else.

[ducksface]

Trains are electric driven by diesel, so it's not a new idea.

[Chance]

“Mercedes-Benz is rightly glorying in the fact that it drove its Vision EQXX battery-electric concept over 621 miles (1000 kilometers) on a single charge. The feat took place on real roads from Stuttgart, Germany, to Cassis, France, in early spring weather ranging from 37 to 64 degrees Fahrenheit, at an average speed of 53 miles per hour. That middling speed was no hypermiling; the route included autobahn stints with extensive cruising at up to 87 mph, offset by Europe's congested urban traffic.”

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...cept-revealed/


It may be a concept to prove what is possible, but the drive itself seems real enough to me. And based on vehicle design, I have no reason to doubt it.

Mercedes is not about to risk their reputation like VW did on dieselgate. And yes, in today’s world lies are common; not just about EVs but diesel cars too like we now know.

[Chance]

The goal for this thread was to discuss higher BEV costs, which will likely delay introduction of electric campers like the Winnebago eRV discussed not long ago.

Winnebago took it on 1,300-mile road trip and the Transit survived. Trip specs seem reasonable, though nothing I would want to drive long distances. I do not see how many times they had to charge, but expect it was too many for me.


A few key stats from the road trip include:

Total miles driven: 1,380
Total drive time: 26 hours
Average driving speed: 53 MPH
Average charge time at DC fast chargers: 1 hour and 2 minutes
Total charging cost: $275
60% cost savings over a gas-powered road trip1
Average miles per kWh: 1.58 mi/kWh

https://rvbusiness.com/winnebago-mak...-e-rv-concept/

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[ducksface]

So convenient to not mention total time, (potentially a week) charge time at less than hand picked chargers(potentially 3 hours)wait time, number of charges, Out of our way to find a charger time, staying at a hotel we didn't want to because they have a charger within 2 mile walk from that hotel...expense, waiting for the three cars ahead of us at the chargers time, added days multiplied by three meals expense, unable to change course from do-or-die charger locations, thus weather and road time losses. Not even a mention of range before charging, wanna bet it's 100 miles?
Sea level to under 900ft altitude. Limited a.c. use(Damn sure).
Deny any of those to be potentially/probably/exactly true.

They didn't do a 1300 mile trip. They potentially did thirteen 100 mile trips. That's a fact.

You might not understand the
Read what isn't written
Aspect
Of truth finding.

Saving that paltry amount of fuel money by buying an extremely limited use vehicle is demented. $275 is 40% of $687. $412 savings...thats the best lie they have...just $400 bucks(WITH no comparative fuel prices or why the tires were at 90psi)
Even as a hobby it's ruthlessly backwards to any sensical thought.

They spent the savings on 4 extra days of food at places they didn't want to eat at, being TOLD by a toy where and when to be.

Here's a sure cure:
Your next trip in your ICE...duplicate what they did.
Throw a dart to establish a 90 minute AVERAGE stop every 100 miles.
Only where the dart hits. Not next door, not next block.
You'll soon see the lack of value even at three times the range and half the charge time.

Now add this bit of information

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tec...le%3f_amp=true

Now multiply for vandalism in higher crime areas...you're at 50% chance of no charging being available in some areas...and there you are at an unmanned broken charger in a high crime area...with no one in sight....

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by ducksface

https://www.windsorford.com/how-long...aker%20circuit.

The real, not to be said outloud by owners, answer is:
4 days to charge at lukachukai(after an overnight AT LEAST) in Holbrook to get over the mountain your 'plan' didn't tell you was there.
Then not making it quite to Shiprock for your next 4 day wait(the mustang I saw).
Then on to Farmington on a prayer for a charging station and it's three hour wait to get to not quite Pagosa Springs and you're on the apache rez knocking on doors.
Wolfcreek is probably entirely out of the question without a stay on both ends of that hill.
And
These are without the 40% range decrease AAA swears by when using ac, heat or climbing and that article STILL uses the 80% flagrant spew when addressing the incredibly ineffective parts of a drive.

Let's be real.
The above trip was the spousal units
Get in and go trip this week(twice in a month).
She doesn't need a new hobby of electric car nor does she need 4 days in lukachukai.


Truly, a horse may be quicker.

And now, like Lincoln mkll's, 50's cadillac Eldorado Biarritz, that stupud GM electric car of the 90's...fords electrics cost more to make than sell...which makes them a MARKETING PLOY and nothing else.

Electric cars are as good for an urban commute as a skateboard is.
Electric cars are as good for real encompassing life as a skateboard is.
The slightest second glance negates mainstream usage and relegates electric to hobby class vehicles.
Electric failed in Australia in the 90's(they even had battery quick change stations)and it failed here with the GM turd in the 90's.


Less. Tar. Cigarette.
(And an ICE vehicle sitting alongside it in the garage)

No. You don't Level-2 charge while on a road trip unless you're stopping at a hotel for the night. (Level-2 chargers--240V around 30-40amps--are what people install at home, trickle charges. Not something you use while on a road trip.)

You use DCFC while on a road trip. You don't drive for 3 hours and charge for 14 that is just stupid.

You don't stop at Hollbrook, you stop at Winslow because there is an Electrify America fast charger there (well ok, once its fixed LOL).

You drive for 3-4 hours, charge for 40 minutes, drive for about 3 hours, charge for 40 minutes, etc.

The whole charge to 80% is because a battery isn't a gas tank. The resistance of the battery increases as you fill it up. Its diminishing returns: You can fast charge to about 80% before you have to slow down. At that point the batteries resistance generates too much heat and would damage the battery if you continued charging at a fast pace. You can charge above 80% but it slows down a lot. Thus that last 20% would take you as much, if not more, time than the 10%-80% did.

In the 90s they didn't have the batteries they do today. EVs failed in the US in the 90s too--did you know Ford made an electric Ranger back then? It was full of lead acid batteries couldn't quick charge and had a range of about 50 miles.

[ducksface]

You charge with what is available in lukachukai or winslow or Ramona or winona or state line or twin arrows or safford or on Kensington(type that place into YouTube) in Philadelphia. You don't get to choose when the ac or traffic or a Hill squashed you. You don't get to make the broken charger at the cut-rate casino repair itself(I had to change gas stations in Holbrook Thursday due to no premium available).


No big charger. No big charge.
No 240, you use the 110v.
No premium, no premium. You use regular.



So, when range is stated it's at the 80% of sensible charge or at 100% of nonsensical charge?

Is AAA lying deliberately, risking slander and libel by saying a 40% range drop for ac and or heat and or hills?

I'm all for electric.
I miss the golf cart twins and would pay lots for a usable one, sorely from want, no need needed. (Notice I didn't say it was a savior in waiting).
I am against mindless hype and media lies, the stories told to garner government grants and fool fools.

Chance mentioned a cross country bicycle ride.
Any conveyance can travel any distance, incrementally.
It's the sense of it all that drives it.

[bry899]

I can see Electric working for a RV in some situations.
Say you drive whatever your range is to your campground, Plug in at the campground stay the night. The next morning you continue to your next campground.
That is not for me but it can work in some situations.

By the way I know a lot of people that don't travel more than 50 miles from their home to go camping. It would work for these rvers also.

[Travelin' Texans]

I wouldn't shed a tear if all the EV manufacturers went broke tomorrow!
I think an EV is a good idea if living in a metropolitan area commuting to/from work or shopping locally where at home charging can possibly be available, but so far they are not designed nor have the infrastructure for cross country travel.
Both EVs & contaminating our fuel with corn squeezins are, not trying to start anything that's not allowed, are the dreams of a certain group of folks that have no idea of what they're talking about or doing that think they can build a better mouse trap.

[Lt Keefer]

Originally Posted by Travelin' Texans

I wouldn't shed a tear if all the EV manufacturers went broke tomorrow!
I think an EV is a good idea if living in a metropolitan area commuting to/from work or shopping locally where at home charging can possibly be available, but so far they are not designed nor have the infrastructure for cross country travel.
Both EVs & contaminating our fuel with corn squeezins are, not trying to start anything that's not allowed, are the dreams of a certain group of folks that have no idea of what they're talking about or doing that think they can build a better mouse trap.

I agree 100%.

[Bob Nodine]

If you are a dog owner Hybrid and Electric vehicles can be a problem. We purchased a Ford CMax Hybrid in 2015 thinking we would tow it behind the motorhome but never did because if you leave it sitting idle with the air conditioning on to keep your dog cool while you visit a store, etc. it gets hot inside. I assume the computer shuts down the compressor to save battery charge. That nixed the CMax as a toad and we never towed it. I can see the same problem with an EV. When shopping around town (our dog is almost always with us) we use our Silverado with an oversize radiator and two electric cooling fans. It will keep the inside of the truck cool when it is 100 degrees outside.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Bob Nodine

If you are a dog owner Hybrid and Electric vehicles can be a problem. We purchased a Ford CMax Hybrid in 2015 thinking we would tow it behind the motorhome but never did because if you leave it sitting idle with the air conditioning on to keep your dog cool while you visit a store, etc. it gets hot inside. I assume the computer shuts down the compressor to save battery charge. That nixed the CMax as a toad and we never towed it. I can see the same problem with an EV. When shopping around town (our dog is almost always with us) we use our Silverado with an oversize radiator and two electric cooling fans. It will keep the inside of the truck cool when it is 100 degrees outside.

Ok so one car did that?

People have camped overnight in their Mach-E with the HVAC running all night.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Bob Nodine

If you are a dog owner Hybrid and Electric vehicles can be a problem. We purchased a Ford CMax Hybrid in 2015 thinking we would tow it behind the motorhome but never did because if you leave it sitting idle with the air conditioning on to keep your dog cool while you visit a store, etc. it gets hot inside. I assume the computer shuts down the compressor to save battery charge. That nixed the CMax as a toad and we never towed it. I can see the same problem with an EV. When shopping around town (our dog is almost always with us) we use our Silverado with an oversize radiator and two electric cooling fans. It will keep the inside of the truck cool when it is 100 degrees outside.

Bob, in an electric RV, we should expect air conditioner to remain powered from batteries while vehicle is stationary. In case of Winnebago eRV prototype van camper mentioned previously, the roof-top air conditioner and heat pump is said to run on 350-VDC, so from main batteries.
.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by ducksface

You charge with what is available in lukachukai or winslow or Ramona or winona or state line or twin arrows or safford or on Kensington(type that place into YouTube) in Philadelphia. You don't get to choose when the ac or traffic or a Hill squashed you. You don't get to make the broken charger at the cut-rate casino repair itself(I had to change gas stations in Holbrook Thursday due to no premium available).


No big charger. No big charge.
No 240, you use the 110v.
No premium, no premium. You use regular.



So, when range is stated it's at the 80% of sensible charge or at 100% of nonsensical charge?

Is AAA lying deliberately, risking slander and libel by saying a 40% range drop for ac and or heat and or hills?

I'm all for electric.
I miss the golf cart twins and would pay lots for a usable one, sorely from want, no need needed. (Notice I didn't say it was a savior in waiting).
I am against mindless hype and media lies, the stories told to garner government grants and fool fools.

Chance mentioned a cross country bicycle ride.
Any conveyance can travel any distance, incrementally.
It's the sense of it all that drives it.

At the moment, since EV chargers aren't on every corner like gas stations are you have to plan a little. You don't just drive until the gauge reads zero and then look. Chargers are going in very fast these days. A year from now routes will have opened up that don't exist today (it is much easer to plop some chargers down somewhere than it is to build a new gas station).

On an EV you program the navigation for your destination and it automatically adds the appropriate chargers to the route. If I were to sit down and tell my car (via the in car nav or the Ford app) to take me to LA it would find all the chargers enroute (with a safety margin).

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Sounds eerily familiar to other stories of old...

I was "driving" between towns the other day and saw one of those new fangled "auto mobiles" stopped along the road with a spout of steam spraying from the front. I see it all the time!

When will these folks give up on this fad? I just park at the local store, give the horses a drink while I'm inside... and they're ready for the return trip.

These kids and their toys nowadays!! And don't get me started on those moving picture contraptions...

Every generation has the naysayers...

At least the "flangled "auto mobiles"" did offer way MORE to the horse rider (baseline) in speed, payload, etc .
What the electric car offers more than the gas version?

NOTHING

Electric prowertrain IS NOT an innovation, electric cars where running the streets of London in 1909.


Electric cars offer nothing more but a HIGHER cost, HIGHER pollution and HIGHER inflation to the society.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

.....cut.....

You drive for 3-4 hours, charge for 40 minutes, drive for about 3 hours, charge for 40 minutes, etc.

.....cut.....

You are absolutely correct, and in some cases understating capability of cars like a family member’s new Tesla S. When he traded the previous S and went from about 280 to 400 miles of range, he said it was a game changer as far as taking longer road trips. For local trips there was plenty of range already, but extra 120 miles makes a big difference on the highway.

He can now drive all morning long on one charge with range to spare, charge during a lunch stop, and drive all afternoon before arriving at a hotel. The extra range has essentially eliminated sitting on the side of road doing nothing.

As we have discussed in other threads, a minimum range is critical. Unfortunately, for long road trips at highway speeds, aerodynamic drag plays a huge part, and that’s where electric RVs will struggle most.

The Winnebago eRV Class B above achieved 1.58 miles per kWh, which is about what is expected for a Transit van that size, but with a battery capacity of only 87 kWh, if traveling between 10 and 80% state of charge as you mentioned, would yield a typical useable range of only 96 miles. That means driving about 1-1/2 hours, then stopping for a charge which averaged an hour. By the time they pull off the highway until they get back on, about 50% of driving time is spent charging.

At very minimum a van like that needs 2 to 3 times more battery capacity in order to extend range to at least 200 ~ 300 miles. That would add a lot of weight, requiring a custom heavy-duty chassis. With higher commodity prices now, it seems to me the electric camper may not be viable for a long time; though I expect a few electric Class Bs on eTransit with less than 100-mile range may show up soon.
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[EA37TS]

Topic of conversation at our Chapter breakfast this morning. From the President of an electric coop in NC, who is a member in attendance

The National electric grid is not ready and will not be ready for EVs for at least a decade. Every major city will experience brown outs this summer. The cost of electricity will need to triple before the grid can be improved to handle mass increased use of EVs.