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Old 03-22-2023, 10:48 PM   #1
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THOR #13932
Lithium battery. My Slightly off kilter questions.

I can't find the info in one place and what I do find is fractured so as to be specific to a narrow question.

So:
If my individual batteries have bms do I need a remote/standard issue bim?
I ask because the long minutes of charging/not charging intervals seem kinda counter productive. I'd rather the batteries, instead of a timer, decide when to charge.

If I have individual battery managers built into the lithium battery do I need a dc to dc charger to protect the battery and alternator?
I can't seem to understand the need for outside the battery reg when the battery itself regs.

My inverter has a dc to dc 150amp charger.
I THINK I can use it and my alternator at the same time?
My batteries can take the input amps.

I'll have 600 to 1000 amp of lithium with a 1000a Bluetooth shunt.

I'd like to rely on the knowledge of others for this. I don't want to learn all of the minutia just for this one installation.

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Old 03-22-2023, 11:19 PM   #2
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THOR #7035
The Li-BIMs sole purpose in limiting time charging is to protect the alternator, not the batteries. The battery BMS will always protect the battery.
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
The Li-BIMs sole purpose in limiting time charging is to protect the alternator, not the batteries. The battery BMS will always protect the battery.
Will the batteries refusal of power(by the on board bms) protect the alternator since no charge is demanded?

I'm trying to find a way around the miserable timer making charging take twice as long, UNLESS, the timer is for cooling the alternator.
If it's a cooling thing, do we like an electric fan and or heat shunt?

I've successfully reinvented a few wheels but I can't imagine just cooling being what promotes bim usage.
If it's cooling, maybe I can beat the bim.
The bim stuff is all in vain I guess since we run the generator without hesitation.

My goal is to wire this whole thing no more than the three times I know it will take.
I'll leave the bim as is(but change it to the lithium model if this forum says to)
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Old 03-22-2023, 11:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
Will the batteries refusal of power(by the on board bms) protect the alternator since no charge is demanded?

I'm trying to find a way around the miserable timer making charging take twice as long, UNLESS, the timer is for cooling the alternator.
If it's a cooling thing, do we like an electric fan and or heat shunt?

I've successfully reinvented a few wheels but I can't imagine just cooling being what promotes bim usage.
If it's cooling, maybe I can beat the bim.
The bim stuff is all in vain I guess since we run the generator without hesitation.

My goal is to wire this whole thing no more than the three times I know it will take.
I'll leave the bim as is(but change it to the lithium model if this forum says to)
The batteries "refusal of power" is caused by:

The BMS limiting charging current to stay below "damaging" levels. and
The batteries limiting charging current due to voltage increase as they approach full charge.

That current limit by the BMS can still be sufficient current draw from the alternator to damage it over long periods (like when the batteries are low after boondocking and require hours of charging at their max level). That current level also depends on the number of batteries in parallel.

Numbers for example.

165 amp rated alternator
Normally puts out 40 to 60 amps to recharge chassis battery and supply automotive loads.

Now add a lithium battery bank that can charge at 100 amps maximum.

Immediately after starting the alternator may be taxed at 160 amps for a short period of time if the house batteries are close to full. If they are close to empty this amp draw will continue for much longer unless interrupted by the BIM.

You haven't overloaded the alternator, but you have stressed it much higher that it's normal life cycle was engineered for, which can result in an earlier death of the alternator.
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Old 03-23-2023, 12:01 AM   #5
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THOR #13932
Thanks.
I'll leave the bim alone.
If the Alternator goes out I'll install a dual setup.
Could a dual setup be set up with individual bims to, essentially, be charging the batteries 'full time' by alternating the bim timers?

(This is all just my 'Overkill Bill' stuff. I've yet to use the 4x4, don't need 1000a and won't need the dual alternators, but, everyone needs a hobby)
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Old 04-04-2023, 03:55 AM   #6
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Ok, how about this?
I seperate the house from the chassis and charge the lithium house batteries from my 150a lithium capable charger that is built into my xantrex 3000w inverter and the generator.
This would eliminate my need for a dc to dc charger(very low 40 amp units seem to be the norm at $400+...and I'd want two of them) between my alternator and the house.

And
If I have dc to dc chargers the alternator is protected because the lithium battery cutting off can't spike the alternator.





So,
If I just pull the house off of the bim, I'm separated from alternator fear?
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Old 04-05-2023, 03:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
If I just pull the house off of the bim, I'm separated from alternator fear?
Yes, and pretty much what I've been thinking I would do if I go Lithium... However, you do lose the ability to start the engine from the house batteries if the chassis battery goes dead. A long pair of jumper cables can solve that though.

You also lose the ability for the house to keep the chassis battery charged during storage.
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Old 04-05-2023, 04:46 PM   #8
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THOR #13932
I have an aux battery for the chassis, I'm about to add one of those 11.5v cutoff battery saver switches and the 24.1 lives in a comfortable house so an added built in 120v charger is easy. It can live where the chassis battery used to live.

Thanks. It all seems pretty easy.

But
two dc to dc chargers at $900 a pair is probably more sensical.
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Old 04-05-2023, 05:10 PM   #9
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FYI: Seen recently where major manufacturers have DC-DC converters in much higher current capacity. Some go higher than what you would want to load alternator with, which is part of what you are trying to accomplish. Just saying having to install 2 units isnít necessary unless you just want more stuff (some would call it backup, but you have that already in other equipment).

Advantage to DC-DC converter or generator powering your Xantrex Inverter/Charger is that you can get a bit more charge into batteries so you wonít need as large a battery bank. Itís not huge difference but everything adds up with lithium because of high costs. Solar can also top-off batteries if set up for lithium.
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Old 04-17-2023, 04:19 AM   #10
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

I ordered this today for my lithium install. $339 regular price, $206 used on amazon. I bought just the one unit.

I already have the xantrex sw3000 inverter with a built in 150a charger.

so;
if my inverter isn't on this should charge the batteries at 50ah.
if my inverter is on I should be shore power charging at 150a.
If my inverter is on and I'm driving, I MIGHT be charging at 200a.

Does this sound correct?
And
with my 50ah new dc to dc charger, will the bim REALLY make it only a 20ah charger on average due to it cutting off and on? so, with the bim running wouldn't the alternator charge really average 50ah with two of the linked chargers?

I doubt any of this is needed as we don't give a tinkers dam about fuel mileage and the generator is almost always on when we're driving.
but
we occasionally forget to turn on the inverter so the 50ah{really20 due to bim} will be our trickle charger[I guess]

And
My loaned out 200a lithium battery is never coming back.
A story for a campfire.
so
I have 400a for sure, another 200 amp which needs a cell replaced to work, and no chance of going 800a on this set.

so
this 'don't use old cells with new cells' thing:
I don't need 100% ability.
mix and match won't kill, it just diminishes [maybe] the new batteries to the age of the old batteries. Is this right?
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Old 04-17-2023, 06:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
this 'don't use old cells with new cells' thing:
I don't need 100% ability.
mix and match won't kill, it just diminishes [maybe] the new batteries to the age of the old batteries. Is this right?
That is NA to lithium batteries as the BMS handle individual cell charging in each battery and disconnects that battery when discharged to the lower limit.

Mix away.

But a lithium battery with a "bad cell" is a whole lot different than a LA battery with a bad cell as the internal cells are certainly in a series/parallel configuration.
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Old 04-17-2023, 07:10 PM   #12
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Yes, I have to cut it open and test the bad section.
I have a battery welder.
Except for die grindering the case open it should go well enough.
If it goes VERY well I'll consider cutting them all open and build them cases that fit in that echo chamber axis has between left and right front bins.
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Old 04-21-2023, 06:42 PM   #13
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THOR #13932
Bench tested
Renogy 50a dc-dc charger
Victron 1000a Bluetooth shunt
All is well.
I'll order the Bluetooth module for the charger today.
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Old 04-21-2023, 06:44 PM   #14
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THOR #13932
Renogy mentions a wire needed for a
Smart alternator.
Does 2018 e450 v10 have such a thing as a Smart alternator??
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Old 04-21-2023, 09:42 PM   #15
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If the negative battery post allows, mount the shunt directly on it. Gotta say... that's some creative "cabling"!
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Old 04-22-2023, 03:11 PM   #16
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we have 3x100 lithium batteries, a dc to dc charger, and 3000 inverter charger. all renogy. VERY IMPORTANT - change your BIM to a lithium BIM! failure to do this is a big problem.
next - the dc to dc charger has a "feature" that i consider a problem. i have contacted renogy about this and they acknowledge the "feature". when you disconnect the coach battery via the ground switch disconnect, the dc to dc charger turns itself on and drains the coach battery to dead, then faults itself and will not unfault until you disconnect the charger. my solution to this feature is to manually trip the positive fuse switch on the coach battery thus disconnecting the coach battery from the charger. i keep the dc charger on a manual switch that allows me to decide when it charges.
additionally, the inverter charger when connected to shore power does a very nice job of charging the lithium.
we removed our generator after over 2 years full time, of never using it. we have 400w solar as well, renogy again. our controller is victron, we like it better than renogy.
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Old 04-22-2023, 03:42 PM   #17
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Thanks for that info.
The screen shot I posted shows the charger uses 4w all the time no matter what or how.
I think the work around you have will work fine for me, though I never shut off the coach using that switch.
I think the 'smart alternator' they have a connection for might be their fix for this.
I have a remote control battery cutout switch I tried on my gator(it didn't work) that I'll try in this setup.

Do you have the Renogy remote display or the Bluetooth module?
Suggestions?
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Old 04-22-2023, 04:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galOnTheGo View Post
we have 3x100 lithium batteries, a dc to dc charger, and 3000 inverter charger. all renogy. VERY IMPORTANT - change your BIM to a lithium BIM! failure to do this is a big problem.
next - the dc to dc charger has a "feature" that i consider a problem. i have contacted renogy about this and they acknowledge the "feature". when you disconnect the coach battery via the ground switch disconnect, the dc to dc charger turns itself on and drains the coach battery to dead, then faults itself and will not unfault until you disconnect the charger. my solution to this feature is to manually trip the positive fuse switch on the coach battery thus disconnecting the coach battery from the charger. i keep the dc charger on a manual switch that allows me to decide when it charges.
additionally, the inverter charger when connected to shore power does a very nice job of charging the lithium.
we removed our generator after over 2 years full time, of never using it. we have 400w solar as well, renogy again. our controller is victron, we like it better than renogy.
What problem would that be?
Seems like your DC-to-DC charger is a bigger problem?
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Old 04-22-2023, 08:25 PM   #19
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we have the renogy remote display, two actually; happy with it.

as for the BIM being non- lithium, (summary here) the BIM would switch back and forth while off and parked, in the middle of the night the lights would flash, etc.. my best guess at what was happening is the higher voltage of the lithium battery was causing havoc with the BIM. it drained the coach battery dead, destroying the battery. i had to replace the coach battery.



another note - we put the lithium batteries, two, in where the acid batteries were, under the steps at the doorway. problem we had there was that is an open space, and when it gets wet, rains, that wet gets all over the batteries and wires. those renogy batteries have open ports (when in use) for the monitor and connections. well, the water got in the ports and destroyed the ports. enough of that - moral of the story, i taped the wires and ports such that they stay dry now. i hope to enclose that area someday.
additionally, in case you are wondering where the 3rd lithium is, i put it where the generator used to be. now if you want to discuss the theoretical problem of separating the batteries like that, we can, just not here (it is where my second monitor is). i dont want to type that much, it is a long discussion.
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Old 04-22-2023, 09:12 PM   #20
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THOR #13932
Take a look at the last few pages of my signature thread. It shows my new jump start ports and where I moved my chassis battery.
My lithium will go with the chassis battery for a while, thrn probably under the drivers side bed.
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