New Ford V8 Godzilla your not

[Jchadwi]

I have a 2018 Hurricane 29M with 37k miles on it. No idea what the fuel mileage is. When it gets low on gas, I just fill it up again!

[Metalman]

At this time hybrids make a lot of sense. We have two Pruii and they get well over 50 mpg in the summer and just over 50 in the winter. It takes a bit of time to learn how to eke the most MPG out of them. Even if they were run like a regular car, they's still get in the mid to high 40s.

My friend has a Toyota Prime, which is both a hybrid and a plug in. He lives in NH where the cost of electricity is very high. Depending on the price of gasoline, he can achieve the best cost per mile using it in the hybrid mode.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Exactly! The "technology" to do something includes the cost to do it. If the cost is exorbitant, the technology is not there.

That’s somewhat subjective because it’s not black and white in my opinion.

Cost to land an American on Moon was exorbitant by most accounts at the time it was accomplished, but the technology itself was there — as real as it gets. In retrospect we could argue that the cost to humanity was a bargain given the advances in technology that followed.

On the other hand if we are essentially talking about a commodity where higher price makes the technology pointless, that’s a different issue and I agree with you completely.

My reasoning leads me to believe there are infinite shades of grey between these two extremes, which is why we can’t get consensus in either direction.

Even in a commodity like bicycles, there are many who will pay $1,000s more to save a few pounds. It’s very personal and subjective. In motorhomes, slides often add more cost and weight than making the motorhome longer to achieve similar results, but buyers subjectively prefer shorter motorhome with greater width. My point is that costs are not always black and white as they affect subjective decisions. If we try to justify improving fuel economy primarily on cost alone, we are not going to get very far beyond further downsizing, which comes relatively cheap.

[kwplot34]

I have a problem with all these EV owners wanting to plug into the Grid, you want to save the planet, plug those cars into wind generators or solar chargers.

[Metalman]

The grid is powered by wind generators and solar panels as well as nuclear, water, oil, wood, gas, coal, etc.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Here's a cost/benefit comparison that defines a major accepted shift in values:

In 1969 the U.S. shocked the world by landing men on the moon... using crude technology by today's standards. Out of that decade came advances in technology... the likes of which to this day have no parallel.

Today, we launch Hollywood actors into space for novelty... an expense which provides no benefit whatsoever to humanity... unless you count entertainment. And yes... tax dollars were involved. A half century later and this is what we get??

[chunker21]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Here's a cost/benefit comparison that defines a major accepted shift in values:

In 1969 the U.S. shocked the world by landing men on the moon... using crude technology by today's standards. Out of that decade came advances in technology... the likes of which to this day have no parallel.

Today, we launch Hollywood actors into space for novelty... an expense which provides no benefit whatsoever to humanity... unless you count entertainment. And yes... tax dollars were involved. A half century later and this is what we get??

The elite, the self and media appointed elite operate on different rules than the peon masses. They live in mansions the size of small countries and demand that we, the unannointed, cut back, conserve and do without so they can fly to their meetings and drive their resource guzzling vehicles, and pretend to care. I find it humorous that self or politically appointed "experts" are assumed to be the authority.

2 sets of rules but it's been that way since the beginning of time.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by kwplot34

I have a problem with all these EV owners wanting to plug into the Grid, you want to save the planet, plug those cars into wind generators or solar chargers.

Your post made me curious about how bad this grid problem actually is, and unless I’m screwing up my estimates, it’s not as bad as I previously thought.

I don’t own an EV, not even a hybrid. However, I looked at average energy needed to replace my minivan which we have been driving 8,000 miles per year for local trips. Using 4 miles of range per kWh and 80% charging efficiency, I would need +/- 2,500 kWh per year to replace minivan with large EV. That’s only about 7 kWh daily, which is +/- 10% of my normal electricity bill.

Adding around 2,000 Watts of solar on house roof would offset most of the energy to charge a car for our local driving needs. And solar production in middle of day when grid is loaded most due to air conditioning would be an overall plus as long as I charged at night in summer.

Another option in lieu of adding solar would simply be to add insulation to my house and replace windows with energy efficient dual pane. That would likely save more than the 7 kWh that we would need to charge a car for 8,000 miles of driving annually. We have been averaging just 22 miles per day for last 11 years so in our case it’s not that much to make up. Granted, that just addresses local driving mostly in minivan. Our larger touring/camping van is another problem.

No doubt grid needs upgrade, but problem is not as severe as I first thought.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chance

Your post made me curious about how bad this grid problem actually is, and unless I’m screwing up my estimates, it’s not as bad as I previously thought.

This is an interesting exercize to do, here is our reality:

Gallons of gasoline consumed per day(one car): 1.95
That converted to Kwh: 65.15Kwh
Efficiency of the ICE engine: 34%
Quantity of energy that effectivelly is used to move the vehicle: 22.15Kwh
Efficiency of an electric motor+inverter: 94%

Energy needed by electric powertrain to do what the ICE is doing:23.56 Kwh per day

Using your example of 2 Kw solar panels, a general efficiency of 50% due to light angle, clouds, etc and a 5 hour day with usable light, that give us:5 Kwh/day of energy from the solar system.

So we will need to buy 18.56 Kwh/day from the grid...

A city with 100000 vehicles will need additional capacity of 1.86 Gigawatts hour from the grid assuming that everybody installs 2Kw of solar....
If only 1/2 of the people installs solar, the energy needed will be 2.1 gigawatts hour...

Now you put in the context that every activity in the past 20 years have increased and/or migrated to electricity (airfriers, lawn mowers, etc)...

I don't think it is as easy as you think...

[Long & Winding road]

Originally Posted by RACarvalho

This is an interesting exercize to do, here is our reality:

Gallons of gasoline consumed per day(one car): 1.95
That converted to Kwh: 65.15Kwh
Efficiency of the ICE engine: 34%
Quantity of energy that effectivelly is used to move the vehicle: 22.15Kwh
Efficiency of an electric motor+inverter: 94%

Energy needed by electric powertrain to do what the ICE is doing:23.56 Kwh per day

Using your example of 2 Kw solar panels, a general efficiency of 50% due to light angle, clouds, etc and a 5 hour day with usable light, that give us:5 Kwh/day of energy from the solar system.

So we will need to buy 18.56 Kwh/day from the grid...

A city with 100000 vehicles will need additional capacity of 1.86 Gigawatts hour from the grid assuming that everybody installs 2Kw of solar....
If only 1/2 of the people installs solar, the energy needed will be 2.1 gigawatts hour...

Now you put in the context that every activity in the past 20 years have increased and/or migrated to electricity (airfriers, lawn mowers, etc)...

I don't think it is as easy as you think...

Well I dont think you can just do a simple conversion from Gas to electic.

A gas car idle quite a bite in traffic, plus the electic cars have Re-gen braking etc.

so you cannot simply convert from Gas to electic.

I think Chance is on the right page. Perhaps the average go will need 3000 or 4000 watt-hours per a day. It will take a few years to change the way we fuel up our cars so that will give us time to build up our power grid. Its not like we need 100 % more electic now.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by RACarvalho

This is an interesting exercize to do, here is our reality:

.....cut....

I don't think it is as easy as you think...

Your reality is very different than mine. I stand by my numbers for my needs.

Tesla S (larger than I would consider buying) has 400 mile range with 100 kWh battery. My 8,000 miles of driving annually requires “equivalent” of 20 full charges a year. That’s only 2,000 kWh. Since battery chargers are around 80%, I would have to buy +/- 2,500 kWh of electricity at meter. That averages +/- 7 kWh per day.

At my present electric rate that’s only $25 per month. My gas bill for same 8,000 miles at 20 MPG and $3.00 a gallon is $100 per month. Obviously electric cars will get taxed, but I digress from required grid upgrades.

In Southeast Texas, the grid is limited by air conditioning on hot sunny summer days. During those types of days, solar panels can harvest at least 3 times their Watt ratings in Watt-hours. So to get 7 kWh on critical days, I would need about 2,300 Watts of solar panels — hence rounded off to 2,000 Watts.

Obviously my usage is not truly average of 7 kWh each and every single day, but when averaged over millions of people, it should not be that bad.

Regardless of all the other numbers you threw out, an electric car for us would represent less than 10% of my total EXISTING electrical usage. With proper scheduling of charging, it may not even add to grid peaks at all.

You and I are very different. I see possibilities and you obstacles. We will have to agree to disagree. Constant negativity doesn’t work for me.

[Long & Winding road]

Originally Posted by Chance

Your reality is very different than mine. I stand by my numbers for my needs.

You and I are very different. I see possibilities and you obstacles. We will have to agree to disagree. Constant negativity doesn’t work for me.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Calculating fuel cost per mile of EV compared to an ICE vehicle is simple. There are so many actual real-life examples and case studies out there it would make your head spin!!

Just do an easy search. You'll find that after all the complicated math is done, a typical Tesla costs between 4¢ and 5¢ per mile in FUEL ALONE (purchased electricity). You can do this math yourself from published kWh electricity rates in your area, combined with published/real world kWh battery capacity of Tesla's and range data.

I'll use an ICE vehicle that gets average 30mpg (current national average mpg is just under 26mpg). At the time of writing this, the average national gasoline price is $3.37 per gallon.

Just to give the ICE vehicle a head start, I'll lower the gasoline to a wishful $3.00 / gallon, AND round the Tesla up to 5¢ per mile. Actual is closer to 4.5¢.

ICE
@30 mpg = .0333 gallons per mile

.0333 gallons gasoline @ $3.00/gallon = 10¢ per mile

EV
@ 5¢ per mile

Based on those numbers, the EV fuel cost is 1/2 of the ICE vehicle. This is calculated on electricity piped into your house from the grid.

Superchargers energy rates cost about twice as much... which defeats the purpose.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Calculating fuel cost per mile of EV compared to an ICE vehicle is simple. There are so many actual real-life examples and case studies out there it would make your head spin!!

Just do an easy search. You'll find that after all the complicated math is done, a typical Tesla costs between 4¢ and 5¢ per mile in FUEL ALONE (purchased electricity). You can do this math yourself from published kWh electricity rates in your area, combined with published/real world kWh battery capacity of Tesla's and range data.

I'll use an ICE vehicle that gets average 30mpg (current national average mpg is just under 26mpg). At the time of writing this, the average national gasoline price is $3.37 per gallon.

Just to give the ICE vehicle a head start, I'll lower the gasoline to a wishful $3.00 / gallon, AND round the Tesla up to 5¢ per mile. Actual is closer to 4.5¢.

ICE
@30 mpg = .0333 gallons per mile

.0333 gallons gasoline @ $3.00/gallon = 10¢ per mile

EV
@ 5¢ per mile

Based on those numbers, the EV fuel cost is 1/2 of the ICE vehicle. This is calculated on electricity piped into your house from the grid.

Superchargers energy rates cost about twice as much... which defeats the purpose.

But what the consumer wants to know is: When do I break even after paying the "upcharge" for my EV over a comparable ICE vehicle.

[Long & Winding road]

Dont forget each state the fuel and electic prices will be vastly different.

Calif. will be crazy high on both.

The southern states will be much cheaper on both.

Other states the fuel might be high (esp in the winter?) buy utilities are much lower?

[ducksface]

Just an observation:
Those who complain about rich people
aren't trying hard enough to join them.
(And the complainers own 13 cardie b recordings they listen to while watching professional sports, wearing the $65 Jersey with another mans name on the back)

Break even is about 86,000 miles depending on the vehicle.
That's just to recoup.
It's another 86,000 miles to cut the upgrade cost in half.
But
How many miles before batteries need replaced?

This electric stuff is a fine hobby but a really stupud religion.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chance

You and I are very different. I see possibilities and you obstacles. We will have to agree to disagree. Constant negativity doesn’t work for me.

You are confusing reality with negativity and pipe dream with possibilities.
I'm just showing you REAL LIFE OBSTACLES and CONSEQUENCES to a proposed alternative ENERGY SYSTEM.
You can execute something only when you face the obstacles and eliminate them.

Show me a battery technology that can REDUCE THE PRICE OF THE VEHICLE IN 30% and then I will agree with you.

[Long & Winding road]

Originally Posted by RACarvalho

You are confusing reality with negativity and pipe dream with possibilities.
I'm just showing you REAL LIFE OBSTACLES and CONSEQUENCES to a proposed alternative ENERGY SYSTEM.
You can execute something only when you face the obstacles and eliminate them.

The difference between people with your approach and mine is the difference between Tesla Truck and Cummins electrified tuck....
I can give that Tesla truck is more aesthetic appealing but it is just that: Paper.

It doesn't make sense from any angle you look at it.
Cummins full electric truck on the other hand have a 144K battery (yes, only that) and not only makes sense from an engineering stand point but the end customer will be able to make $$$ with it.
It was developed to be inside the port moving containers in a operation that rarely drives more than 100km a day and does not operate at night. IN THAT ENVIRONMENT electrification makes sense because:
1 - Battery is small so the truck is not that expensive compared to the diesel version.
2 - Application doesn't require long range on a charge
3 - Application doesn't require 24/7 work
4 - Application doesn't require high power (speed)
And I can go on and on on the specifics but if you take away any ONE of the specifics, electrification doesn't make sense.
Cars are different, yes, somewhat but most of the challenges are the same with added consequences to society.

Show me a battery technology that can REDUCE THE PRICE OF THE VEHICLE IN 30% and then I will agree with you.

Your assuming the battery tech does not change. They are working on new chemical compounds now. May are being tested now. More power density, lighter, quicker charging, cheaper etc.

Plus when you go from just 1 or 2 % of car being electic to 50% then 90% the economies of scale dictate they will be much cheap with volume.

Look at the model T. They were like $1200 originally then like $300 at the end of the production run. Microwave and big screen TV's droped to like 20% of the original cost. Computer etc. The list goes on.

It wont be long (4 or 5 years?) the will be the same price as the current ICE car. Eventually they will be cheaper and NOBODY will want an ICE car (sure that might be 10 years from now but its coming).

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Long & Winding road

It wont be long (4 or 5 years?) the will be the same price as the current ICE car. Eventually they will be cheaper and NOBODY will want an ICE car (sure that might be 10 years from now but its coming).

Long,
I'll be first in line to buy a truck which has the same capability the ICE ones have but because it is electric it cost 30% less...
But we are not talking about a simple change like adding ethanol to the fuel here. We are talking about a huge, extremely pricey change to society which brings no benefits ....
Model T had benefits over horse and bugey, a bigger TV have benefits (at least for me with my decaying eyes ) over a small TV, etc ...
Any other technology advancements we had in the past brought real benefits to the customer, electric cars don't...
I don't care what people do with their $ but when their desire for something different increases the price of the fuel and the vehicles I pay for, that's different....
Maybe the price of EVs will be the same as ICE in 5 years but not because EVs price went down but because price of ICEs where inflated by useless regulations.
$40K Civic... Oh, ok, then a Tesla Y makes sense...
There are means power density will increase but cost is way far.... For cost to reach current ICE levels you need a "put a man on the moon" kind of break through technology...

BUT, If someone can do that, I'm thinking about opening a business to retrofit Motorhomes with electric powertrains... That would be cool but if you know battery technology cost you know this is a pipe dream at this moment...

[Long & Winding road]

RAC...

What do you mean "no benefit". They are much quieter, much lower maintain, cheaper to run, plus the big Benefit... Zero polution. Sure I know the manufacturing process is polluting and the grid can be dirty (for recharging). But give it time (7 years?) and it will be much cleaner than ICE.

Plus EVERY MAGAZINE raves over the EV instant power, handling and ease to drive (one pedal driving) so that will be an impovement over ICE. Not to mention the self drive feature that many will offer.

Im like U, unit the price is the same (or less) than ICE, and until I can get around 500 miles per a single charge, until most roads have like 15/20 min quick recharge (for road trips - normally I will just charge at home)... then I would purchase one.

But keep in mind in about 7 or 10 years you wont have a choice for a "new" car purchase. THey will all be EV. So like it or not this is what is comming.