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Old 08-10-2021, 11:01 PM   #1
Tjb
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THOR #24492
New magnitude xg32 and ags

I am new here and a new xg32 owner. .


I am trying to set the Auto generator start to turn on the generator when traveling. I enable hvac and turn on ags, but as soon as I start the engine on the rv the AGS disables itself after a couple of seconds. I have tried enabling the AGS via the firefly screen (or the app, same result) with the rv running, same thing. It disables itself after about a second or two. If the rv motor is off, ags works fine. The Thor rep said it *should* allow the generator to run the ac while driving, but heck if I can figure out why it keeps disabling itself. I tried searching but could not find any info here, and the Thor rep just sent me a pdf of the firefly manual which doesn't seem to have the answer.



Probably something silly but I can't seen to find it. Anyone know how to make it work?

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Old 08-11-2021, 12:27 AM   #2
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I have. '20 SV34. I've never tried the AGS while driving. I just start the generator if I want to run the A/C units.

I could give it a try setting it tomorrow and then start the coach to see what happens if no one else has any suggestions.

I will say that the AGS is a bit touchy when it comes to setting it via the FireFly planel.
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Old 08-11-2021, 10:42 AM   #3
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We took a recent trip to the NC mountains to escape the heat in south AL and only partially succeeded. In other words it was hot during our travel days and the dash air conditioner kept the rear very comfortable. On one stop for lunch it was 95 outside and low 80s in the back of the RV. All dash air conditioner. My old DP couldn't touch those results. I can't answer your question about the AGS but you may not need to run the generator.
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Old 08-12-2021, 01:12 AM   #4
Tjb
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Originally Posted by chunker21 View Post
We took a recent trip to the NC mountains to escape the heat in south AL and only partially succeeded. In other words it was hot during our travel days and the dash air conditioner kept the rear very comfortable. On one stop for lunch it was 95 outside and low 80s in the back of the RV. All dash air conditioner. My old DP couldn't touch those results. I can't answer your question about the AGS but you may not need to run the generator.

Thanks! Yeah, the cab ac does work well. We just had a 5 hour drive through temps peaking in the low 100s and the back of the coach got up to the high 80s. It wasn't that bad and we can live with it, but hey, if Thor says the AGS should work while driving, I sorta want to know the magic sequence. I would prefer to give the ac a head start if it is possible.
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Old 08-12-2021, 02:38 AM   #5
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THOR #13058
I don't have a Firefly AGS Controller but may shed some light in hopes to point you in the right direction.

First, I do what you are trying to do all the time.

I have Onan 5500 and Cummins Onan EC-30 AGS Controller

On every trip when it is going to be over 80 degrees outside, I put the AGS in AUTO mode. If the rear of the coach ever gets hotter than 78 degrees my genset will start automatically; while I am driving or if I stop someplace with engine still running. My front cabin AC normally keeps me cool, but that is not the point, I just like to know my entire coach is cool if I wish to stop for restroom, eat etc. It will also cut off the genset when temperature has been maintained at 78 degrees. 10 minute min runtime

Here is what I think is happening...

My coach has built in Safety Interlocks, I hated it at first, but it makes good sense once you think about it. It is to avoid the unintentional situation where the AGS may be left on in AUTO mode. Depending upon where it is parked it could start in a Storage facility, garage etc. Each RV's interlocked can be wired differently. I wired mine to the ignition. Park Brake is another option that I have seen used. There are others, but I can't remember at the moment.

So let's say I walk out to my coach before Trip and put in AUTO mode. As soon as I start the RV it will disable itself. The reverse is also true. Let's say the Genset is running in AUTO mode and I pull up to a gas station. If I turn the ignition off, the AUTO mode will shut down.

Now in your case with Firefy....
Are you saying if the coach is running you cannot put AGS in AUTO mode? That would not make sense to me. But if you were to trigger your safety interlock, I can see where it will drop out of AUTO mode to Manual.
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Old 08-12-2021, 03:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
I don't have a Firefly AGS Controller but may shed some light in hopes to point you in the right direction.

First, I do what you are trying to do all the time.

I have Onan 5500 and Cummins Onan EC-30 AGS Controller

On every trip when it is going to be over 80 degrees outside, I put the AGS in AUTO mode. If the rear of the coach ever gets hotter than 78 degrees my genset will start automatically; while I am driving or if I stop someplace with engine still running. My front cabin AC normally keeps me cool, but that is not the point, I just like to know my entire coach is cool if I wish to stop for restroom, eat etc. It will also cut off the genset when temperature has been maintained at 78 degrees. 10 minute min runtime

Here is what I think is happening...

My coach has built in Safety Interlocks, I hated it at first, but it makes good sense once you think about it. It is to avoid the unintentional situation where the AGS may be left on in AUTO mode. Depending upon where it is parked it could start in a Storage facility, garage etc. Each RV's interlocked can be wired differently. I wired mine to the ignition. Park Brake is another option that I have seen used. There are others, but I can't remember at the moment.

So let's say I walk out to my coach before Trip and put in AUTO mode. As soon as I start the RV it will disable itself. The reverse is also true. Let's say the Genset is running in AUTO mode and I pull up to a gas station. If I turn the ignition off, the AUTO mode will shut down.

Now in your case with Firefy....
Are you saying if the coach is running you cannot put AGS in AUTO mode? That would not make sense to me. But if you were to trigger your safety interlock, I can see where it will drop out of AUTO mode to Manual.

I am saying the coach is running, parking brake set, and if I enable ags on the firefly, it stays enabled for approximately one second and then disables. Makes no sense to me either. I would agree there is some condition that the firefly sees that is causing this, but alas, no idea what that is. Generator works fine on manual start or ags works fine if coach motor is not running.
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Old 08-12-2021, 03:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge View Post
I have. '20 SV34. I've never tried the AGS while driving. I just start the generator if I want to run the A/C units.

I could give it a try setting it tomorrow and then start the coach to see what happens if no one else has any suggestions.

I will say that the AGS is a bit touchy when it comes to setting it via the FireFly planel.
I think if it works you will like. Most of our trips start out in the morning and it is always cool enough. I never know when I will stop, but hate to go to the back to use restroom and it is hot We don't have the genset start button in the front dash, but I don't need because I want it to only start when temperature is getting warm in the back, and then turn off automatically when temperature in back is cool. It is one way where or how, I can actually be exercising my genset, but actually really be using it as benefit. Sometimes when it happens, guess what my daughter wants to do? Yes, go pop some popcorn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjb View Post
I am saying the coach is running, parking brake set, and if I enable ags on the firefly, it stays enabled for approximately one second and then disables. Makes no sense to me either. I would agree there is some condition that the firefly sees that is causing this, but alas, no idea what that is. Generator works fine on manual start or ags works fine if coach motor is not running.
Well that is no fun. Is it brand new 2021 or something? Maybe Firefly got a little too cute. Hopefully it is a setup you can change or they have updated firmware. During the meantime, your best bet is to await a ruling from the Judge, his outcome may be final if he replicates your issue, otherwise you may have to appeal with Firefly
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Old 08-12-2021, 01:09 PM   #8
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THOR #1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjb View Post
I am new here and a new xg32 owner. .


I am trying to set the Auto generator start to turn on the generator when traveling. I enable hvac and turn on ags, but as soon as I start the engine on the rv the AGS disables itself after a couple of seconds. I have tried enabling the AGS via the firefly screen (or the app, same result) with the rv running, same thing. It disables itself after about a second or two. If the rv motor is off, ags works fine. The Thor rep said it *should* allow the generator to run the ac while driving, but heck if I can figure out why it keeps disabling itself. I tried searching but could not find any info here, and the Thor rep just sent me a pdf of the firefly manual which doesn't seem to have the answer.



Probably something silly but I can't seen to find it. Anyone know how to make it work?
According to the Onan reps at the FMCA convention AGS is the biggest killer of generators because the generator is not allowed to warm up long enough before AC and other loads are applied.
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Old 08-12-2021, 01:44 PM   #9
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How long should you let the generator warm up before applying a load?
I thought that it was ok to turn things on once the generator went through its startup sequence.
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Old 08-12-2021, 02:28 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JGallagher View Post
How long should you let the generator warm up before applying a load?
I thought that it was ok to turn things on once the generator went through its startup sequence.
The issue is not always the generator but with the ATS not allowing the generator to get up to speed (between 30 seconds and 1 minute) before it switches over to the generator and applies the loads.
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Old 08-12-2021, 03:56 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by EA37TS View Post
According to the Onan reps at the FMCA convention AGS is the biggest killer of generators because the generator is not allowed to warm up long enough before AC and other loads are applied.
I was told the opposite by the Onan Support rep I talked to as he said the AGS was the biggest saver of the generator ( I can PM you his name if you wish)?

I just went out to my coach and confirmed the following.

My Coach is at 99 plus degrees inside with no AC on, I turned off the shore power by disconnecting breaker at Pedestal.

I put my EC-30 in AUTO mode and the below happened using a Stop watch...

After 10 secs - The AUTO Generator had started by itself fully running due to HVAC call of high temp.

After 1 minute (70 sec ) Power was supplied to Power Control System inside the coach (But not the heavy loads ACs, Fridge)

After 3 minutes (190 secs) The power was supplied to the both ACs which came on (the Fridge was off by it's on switch as RV was not in use).

I have no idea of which Onan Support Rep is correct, but I would think 3 minutes is more than enough? The benefit I was told of AGS EC-30 was related to the fact it helps the RV owner use the system more. Seems odd that a system specifically designed to start ACs due to high temperature in the coach would actually have inherent design flaw to damage the actual system?

I certainly don't disagree with anyone because they both could be right? Maybe the difference is the PCS (Power Control System - Energy Management system put in by Winnebago? If so; it would be yet another benefit I have learned that I have from this SOB that I did not even know I needed.
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Old 08-12-2021, 07:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
I was told the opposite by the Onan Support rep I talked to as he said the AGS was the biggest saver of the generator ( I can PM you his name if you wish)?

I just went out to my coach and confirmed the following.

My Coach is at 99 plus degrees inside with no AC on, I turned off the shore power by disconnecting breaker at Pedestal.

I put my EC-30 in AUTO mode and the below happened using a Stop watch...

After 10 secs - The AUTO Generator had started by itself fully running due to HVAC call of high temp.

After 1 minute (70 sec ) Power was supplied to Power Control System inside the coach (But not the heavy loads ACs, Fridge)

After 3 minutes (190 secs) The power was supplied to the both ACs which came on (the Fridge was off by it's on switch as RV was not in use).

I have no idea of which Onan Support Rep is correct, but I would think 3 minutes is more than enough? The benefit I was told of AGS EC-30 was related to the fact it helps the RV owner use the system more. Seems odd that a system specifically designed to start ACs due to high temperature in the coach would actually have inherent design flaw to damage the actual system?

I certainly don't disagree with anyone because they both could be right? Maybe the difference is the PCS (Power Control System - Energy Management system put in by Winnebago? If so; it would be yet another benefit I have learned that I have from this SOB that I did not even know I needed.
You can elect to believe whoever you want to believe. Myself, I’ll believe the Onan Factory Reps that were in Gillette.

As a note I have never used the AGS, have never needed the AGS and with the exception of a bad fuel pump a number of years ago, have not had any generator issues. My current Onan is just under 2 years old with over 300 hours of runtime.
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Old 08-12-2021, 07:55 PM   #13
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A little off topic but also a little related....

I have a Progressive Industries hardired EMS-HW50C and I installed it after the transfer switch (I did it this way in case the generator ever has any power issues... I figure a transfer switch is less expensive and easier to replace than an A/C or fridge).

In any case I have the time delay set in the EMS to 136 seconds so it takes over 2 minutes until any AC power is supplied to the coach.

I confugured it this way in case there are any major or continuus surges / outages due to storms or other issues. It gives the A/C compressors more than enough time to cycle before power is restored to the coach.

It also allows the generator to warm up a couple minutes before it starts supplying any power to the coach. This allows me to meet Onan's warm-up recommendation per the manual.

So in any case, I should have no issues using AGS if I would choose to do so.
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Old 08-12-2021, 08:19 PM   #14
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FWIW

My rig has a Southwire 40100 ATS. This ATS allows 30 seconds from generator start to power transfer.

Here are a few notes from their guide.

Note that the ATS takes approximately 30 seconds to complete the transfer from shore power to generator power after the generator is started.


Note that when heavy electrical loads like air conditioners and heaters are on when transferring from shore to generator power, a current “inrush” will occur. This current inrush causes an instantaneous demand for current on the generator that, depending on the capacity of the generator, can result in a voltage drop below the Transfer Switch’s low voltage threshold of 90V. The effect of this will cause the transfer switch to not transfer and/or contactor chattering.

Turn off heavy loads like the air conditioners and heaters before turning on the generator. After the generator is running and the RV successfully transferred to generator power, turn on the loads one at a time.

For the AGS to turn on start the generator and then AC the AC must be turned on and thermostat set. This goes against the two statements from the ATS guide.

I will operate my generator and AC the safe way while traveling rather than doing things the lazy way. If we are in the coach the my generator gets started after disconnecting shore power and I start it myself, no AGS required.

Again, FWIW
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Old 08-12-2021, 08:36 PM   #15
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There are valid reasons for using AGS.

If you don't have access to shore power and you are away and you have a pet inside the coach, then having the AGS enabled is reasonable based on HVAC needs.

If you don't have access to shore power and you are away and you are worried that you could drain the house batteries, then having the AGS enabled is reasonable based on power needs.

Also, I don't know which A/C units or control system is in your coach but my A/C units have a delay of several seconds bore they actually turn on when commanded to do so. Even if you turn them both on exactly at the same time, they do not start at the same time.

Perhaps the FireFly system has a time delay to prevent large demands for power at one time.

In any case, I'm not worried about using my AGS given how my coach is setup. I have plenty of time delay for generator warm-up and my A/C units won't immediately come on as soon as AC power is supplied to the coach even when there is a demand for cooling.
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Old 08-12-2021, 09:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EA37TS View Post
You can elect to believe whoever you want to believe. Myself, I’ll believe the Onan Factory Reps that were in Gillette.

As a note I have never used the AGS, have never needed the AGS and with the exception of a bad fuel pump a number of years ago, have not had any generator issues. My current Onan is just under 2 years old with over 300 hours of runtime.
I am gonna actually believe you over the Onan Rep's statement.

If Onan Reps says..." AGS is the biggest killer of generators because the generator is not allowed to warm up long enough before AC and other loads are applied"

And you say..." the ATS not allowing the generator to get up to speed (between 30 seconds and 1 minute) before it switches over to the generator and applies the loads"

My system goes 1 minute before switching power to the Power Control Panel and the Power Control Panel delays 2 more minutes before power is supplied to ACs / Fridge. That means my Genset has run 3 minutes to warm before ANY heavy loads have are applied. So I believe your statement is most accurate in stating what is required to not kill a generator. My AGS System delays 3 to 6 times longer as you state as needed. Maybe the Onan Rep inference that AGS independently can kill and be in fact the biggest killer of generators is a question in my mine At best I could agree with a statement that says if the AGS system was not properly designed / installed with the proper support systems (i.e. ATS, and Power Management Systems) it can damage the generator if it applies heavy loads within 30 seconds of startup.

You use your generator more than I do (2:1); so an AGS does not give you the advantage that the Onan Support Rep alluded to as benefit. But I use my AGS all the time (75% of the time I am using the coach) as a matter of convenience. Note: When I use it, it may not always come on if that make sense. But it is in AUTO or QUIET TIME mode ready to be called if necessary.
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Old 08-18-2021, 07:20 PM   #17
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Factory setting

Unfortunately it’s designed not run when the chassis is running. It’s a factory setting, but Gen will run manually. I have a 2022 RB34.
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