Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Community Forums > Thor Owners Community Discussions
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-20-2020, 05:48 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Four Winds 31E (2019)
State: California
Posts: 243
THOR #12270
Posible Auto Transformer Ban.

Just a heads up this video was just posted 2 hours ago. (I thought others should know and be aware!)

It talks about how there maybe a ban on the use of auto-transformers at RV parks and explains his thought as to why.

Personally I agree with him, however, I'd rather the "other guy," that doesn't have his RV on even a surge protector, have his stuff fail because everyone is running there A/C's at the park. Surge protectors are "cheap" insurance to keep your fridge, A/C, microwave (and in my case 5 digit-cost computer servers) etc... from damage. IMHO, auto transformers are ever better insurance.

You want to fix the problem?
1. Actually plan for full parks and maximum demand. AKA 30A draw at a 30A site. 50A@240v at a 50A site.
2. Go solar to help #1
3. Dont have so many sites with electric hookup if your electric service can't handle it.

__________________

__________________
Diemaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 06:17 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
rynosback's Avatar
 
Brand: DRV
Model: 38 RSB3
State: South Dakota
Posts: 1,738
THOR #1658
This debate/fight has been happening for decades. From your video the real SCREWED up thing is the law stating that a campground with 10 x 30amp sites only has to be wired/set up to provide 150amp. Now because of this code as you stated, is why autoformers are made and sold. If Campgrounds would supply proper voltage, there would not be a need for them. So as far as Iím concerned, they caused there own problem. Bottom line is Iím not concerned about a Campgrounds wiring, just my own. As it is the only thing I can controll.
__________________

__________________
2016 DRV38RSB3
2015 Ram 3500 Regular Cab DRW CTD Asian trans 410 rear
rynosback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 06:18 AM   #3
Site Team
 
16ACE27's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: ACE 27.1
State: Florida
Posts: 3,519
THOR #7035
Too simplified and inaccurate. Uses the 13K BTU AC drawing 18 amps as the main load of concern but completely ignores the fact that if supplied 120 VAC instead of the "100 VAC" the Air Conditioner's current draw will go down as it ids not a resistor, but a true load doing a specific amount of work which doesn't change. So as voltage goes down the drawn current has to go up to do the same work.

And although the AC may be running 75% of the time in the RV, the microwave, coffee pot, and other loads are not, so the RV will not be pulling 30 amps all day long as per his assumed example.

IMHO, the autotransformer sky will not be falling this year. This rumor has been around for years. There is a big long discussion on it over at IRV2/
__________________
Ted & Melinda
2016 ACE 27.1
2016 Chevy Sonic Toad
16ACE27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 12:29 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
TurnerFam's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Palazzo 33.3 34'bunkhouse
State: Alabama
Posts: 1,993
THOR #4735
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by rynosback View Post
...a campground with 10 x 30amp sites only has to be wired/set up to provide 150amp.... If Campgrounds would supply proper voltage.....

What you fail to realize is that 150amp service at a Main Panel is 240v service, meaning that each side of the panel provides 150amps - so that's 300amps maximum output before the main panel breaker would trip. 300amps would EASILY serve 10 campsites that are 30amps, and certainly ALL sites would not be 'using' 30amps at the same time 'all the time' regardless - it's baloney to make these statements as tho campgrounds don't know what they're doing, or that electrical requirements are somehow 'lax'.... believe me, electrical engineers tend to OVERESTIMATE, not the other way around.

Also, campgrounds don't have ANYTHING to do with VOLTAGE - that's the utility provider, and 120v of power is 120v of power - the campground has NOTHING to do with that, nor could they even if they wanted to. Voltage also has NOTHING to do with the size or numbers of breakers. Breakers are simply a switch, not a power supply.

Autoformers are overkill. Surge protectors are overkill. Worrying so much about these seemingly 'possibilities' as though they are everyday 'probabilities' is ludicrous... some will continue to make a big deal about it, while the rest of us will simply enjoy our RVing without concern. 100,000 plus miles over this continental U.S., Alaska, and most provinces in Canada - and never any issues or problems - but I'm sure, regardless, that some will continue to 'worry' all the time about every little 'thing' that can possibly happen just because you are 'plugging in' somewhere.


travel, enjoy! : ) it's all good !
__________________
the Turners
'14 Palazzo 33.3 bunkhouse 34' diesel
KingTailgater2 Dish HD, 100w/5a SOLAR, BlueOx
100,000+mi since '14 - US, Alaska, Canada.... formerly Georgia, then NorthCarolina, now Alabama : )
TurnerFam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 02:20 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 524
THOR #15553
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
What you fail to realize is that 150amp service at a Main Panel is 240v service, meaning that each side of the panel provides 150amps - so that's 300amps maximum output before the main panel breaker would trip. 300amps would EASILY serve 10 campsites that are 30amps, and certainly ALL sites would not be 'using' 30amps at the same time 'all the time' regardless - it's baloney to make these statements as tho campgrounds don't know what they're doing, or that electrical requirements are somehow 'lax'.... believe me, electrical engineers tend to OVERESTIMATE, not the other way around.

Also, campgrounds don't have ANYTHING to do with VOLTAGE - that's the utility provider, and 120v of power is 120v of power - the campground has NOTHING to do with that, nor could they even if they wanted to. Voltage also has NOTHING to do with the size or numbers of breakers. Breakers are simply a switch, not a power supply.

Autoformers are overkill. Surge protectors are overkill. Worrying so much about these seemingly 'possibilities' as though they are everyday 'probabilities' is ludicrous... some will continue to make a big deal about it, while the rest of us will simply enjoy our RVing without concern. 100,000 plus miles over this continental U.S., Alaska, and most provinces in Canada - and never any issues or problems - but I'm sure, regardless, that some will continue to 'worry' all the time about every little 'thing' that can possibly happen just because you are 'plugging in' somewhere.


travel, enjoy! : ) it's all good !
WRONG Campgrounds have everything to do with it. At my campground the power company provides 124 volt to the Main service.

At my site the campground provides 116 volts (unloaded) service to my site. I turn on my A/C and I have 109 volts of power. Add a toster or coffee pot and it just gets worse. Just who do you think is responsible for that????

The newly remodeled electric service, witch the Power Company has no control over, was installed with absolutely no regard to VOLTAGE DROP. The #6 AL wire used for 30 amp delivery was WAY undersized for the distance. 1/4 mile in this case.

My transformer corrects the problem just fine.
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 03:11 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: '17-Vegas 24.1
State: California
Posts: 562
THOR #13362
Hereís an easy to follow article written in Oct-2019

https://rvtailgatelife.com/2019/futu...totransformers
__________________
'17 Vegas 24.1
taylorbob1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 03:38 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
ducksface's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2018 24.1 AXISSIXxSIX
State: Arizona
Posts: 1,161
THOR #13932
Is my xantrex 3012 a work around of this problem?
It makes up the shore voltage shortages by using the batteries as a supplement and I have an auto Gen start.
It changes 109v shore to 120v house as needed by adding power from the batteries to the shore power.

So, and I doubt I'm understanding this correctly:
My inverter will draw power from my batteries, add voltage to the pedestal voltage when needed, and will kick on the generator when the batteries need added to.

I know the auto form is pretty expensive. Autoform cost was one of many reasons for me to choose the inverter I did.

Or I'm horribly wrong.

And,
In the five year moritorium or ten year and the Implementation time and the lackadaisical non corporate parks not caring to search your vehicle, do we think an autoform will become the radial arm saw of yard sales or will it become a black market item of multiple values of today?

And
I just don't care.

And
Insurance will regulate parks and require updates and so will local municipalities.
The money is THERE by requiring equipment, not HERE by banning equipment.
__________________
Below is a link to most of my modifications either accomplished or pending.
https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...n-18996-3.html

Click on my pictures then click the pop-up for a full screen zoomable picture.
ducksface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 04:10 PM   #8
Site Team
 
16ACE27's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: ACE 27.1
State: Florida
Posts: 3,519
THOR #7035
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
Is my xantrex 3012 a work around of this problem?
It makes up the voltage from the inverter and batteries and I have an auto Gen start.

So, and I doubt I'm understanding this correctly:
My inverter will draw power from my batteries, add voltage to the pedestal voltage when needed, and will kick on the generator when the batteries need added to.

I know the auto form is pretty expensive. Autoform cost was one of many reasons for me to choose the inverter I did.

Or I'm horribly wrong.

And,
In the five year moritorium or ten year and the Implementation time and the lax non corporate parks not caring to search your vehicle, do we think an autoform will become the radial arm saw of yard sales or will it become a black market item of multiple values of today?

And
I just don't care.

And
Insurance will regulate parks and require updates and so will local municipalities.
The money is THERE by requiring equipment, not HERE by banning equipment.
The inverter does not operate in parallel with SP, for the equipment supplied by the inverter it is one or the other. A "smart" inverter may operate like a UPS and automatically switch to battery supplied AC if it senses the SP supplied AC too high or too low or too dirty.
__________________
Ted & Melinda
2016 ACE 27.1
2016 Chevy Sonic Toad
16ACE27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 08:20 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 524
THOR #15553
You opened the door. You are horribly wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
Is my xantrex 3012 a work around of this problem?
It makes up the shore voltage shortages by using the batteries as a supplement and I have an auto Gen start.
It changes 109v shore to 120v house as needed by adding power from the batteries to the shore power.

So, and I doubt I'm understanding this correctly:
My inverter will draw power from my batteries, add voltage to the pedestal voltage when needed, and will kick on the generator when the batteries need added to.
Inverter does not supplement. Inverter changes 12 volt to 120 volts.

Inverter does not auto start generator.

Inverter does not change 109 to 120 volts. An autoformer does that.

Inverter does not ADD power from the batteries to the shore power. Inverter powers some 120 volt shore power circuits that are hooked to it.

Inverter does allow for 120 volt pass thru voltage when hooked to shore power.

Converter charges the batteries.
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 08:28 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 524
THOR #15553
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
The inverter does not operate in parallel with SP, for the equipment supplied by the inverter it is one or the other. A "smart" inverter may operate like a UPS and automatically switch to battery supplied AC if it senses the SP supplied AC too high or too low or too dirty.
I have not seen or heard of a smart inverter. But then I don't sleep in Holiday Inns either
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 08:40 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
ducksface's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2018 24.1 AXISSIXxSIX
State: Arizona
Posts: 1,161
THOR #13932
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...HtWyqpHcfPzLPQ
What's the chart at about 8:35 in this video above?

When he says 'generator' I think we can insert 'power other than inverter'
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...G10Y8jLSIg9DQZ


I'm expecting... Crickets....
__________________
Below is a link to most of my modifications either accomplished or pending.
https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...n-18996-3.html

Click on my pictures then click the pop-up for a full screen zoomable picture.
ducksface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 09:34 PM   #12
Site Team
 
16ACE27's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: ACE 27.1
State: Florida
Posts: 3,519
THOR #7035
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...HtWyqpHcfPzLPQ
What's the chart at about 8:35 in this video above?

When he says 'generator' I think we can insert 'power other than inverter'
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...G10Y8jLSIg9DQZ


I'm expecting... Crickets....
No chart at 8:35 on the first video, just a block diagram.

That Xantrex SW 3012 is not simply an inverter, it's what I would call a "super smart hybrid inverter" or a complete power management system. It obviously inverts but also charges and monitors AC buss power use and supply to indeed supplement the AC buss from the batteries when needed (to the extent the batteries can support it).

With the Inverter/Converter function it acts as a solid state motor-generator set to smartly send power in both directions as dictated by it's sensors and programming. This is not your father's inverter.

__________________
Ted & Melinda
2016 ACE 27.1
2016 Chevy Sonic Toad
16ACE27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 09:36 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
ducksface's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2018 24.1 AXISSIXxSIX
State: Arizona
Posts: 1,161
THOR #13932
Will it take the place of an autoformer?

(I should have typed 'diagram')

Thanks for the crickets.
It wasn't you I am expecting them from....
And that's the best worded explanation I've ever read about what a xantrex 3012 is and does.

A short aside:
Last year, the same night I bought the 3012 from cw, I was perusing amazon and found them listed at $37.50. I bought two of them. Next day I get an email explaining the problem with their website and said they'd mail them if insisted but they're too small of a company to not be devastated by losing $3,000.
I let them off the hook.
For a very short while, in my head, I had a stacked pair at 6,000w 12,000 surge, hit a switch and have enough 240v to tig weld... for $75 shipped.
__________________
Below is a link to most of my modifications either accomplished or pending.
https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...n-18996-3.html

Click on my pictures then click the pop-up for a full screen zoomable picture.
ducksface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 09:38 PM   #14
Site Team
 
16ACE27's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: ACE 27.1
State: Florida
Posts: 3,519
THOR #7035
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
So will it take the place of an autoformer?
Depends on how big your battery bank is and how long the sag from SP lasts.

An autoformer has no time constraints.
__________________
Ted & Melinda
2016 ACE 27.1
2016 Chevy Sonic Toad
16ACE27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 10:08 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
ducksface's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2018 24.1 AXISSIXxSIX
State: Arizona
Posts: 1,161
THOR #13932
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
Depends on how big your battery bank is and how long the sag from SP lasts.

An autoformer has no time constraints.
I'm not sure on the 3012. I think it is a battery thing and no other constraint like the surge time is.
With the ags, which is controlled by the circuirltry of my inverter, I think it could go quite a while.

Anyone have a guess on how much battery would be used to add, say, 10 volts ac to the system for we'll say 48hours of bad shore power?
I'm thinking the standard two 24 series batteries would last a pretty long time before the generator kicked in(if it ever did. I'm sure the charger is working while the circuit is back feeding, so it could be months and months and months of time, if ever. I don't think a charger is too temperamental about input voltage variations.)

Except for parasitic, I think it would be like those tiny little 12v plug in inverters time wise.

Something else a 3012 can do when using an optionally available circuit:
It will selectively turn off circuits if the power gets low. You set the circuits, nine of them I think, telling it which order to turn them off either wholly or temporarily.
So the ac stays on and the coffee pot goes off and the lights stay on but the TV turns off.....

Seems life saving when you live off grid and have a cpap.

'coffees ready! Dads dead!'
Or
dammit dad! Your cpap kicked the coffee pot off of the inverter again! We need new batteries'
__________________
Below is a link to most of my modifications either accomplished or pending.
https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...n-18996-3.html

Click on my pictures then click the pop-up for a full screen zoomable picture.
ducksface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 10:09 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 524
THOR #15553
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
No chart at 8:35 on the first video, just a block diagram.

That Xantrex SW 3012 is not simply an inverter, it's what I would call a "super smart hybrid inverter" or a complete power management system. It obviously inverts but also charges and monitors AC buss power use and supply to indeed supplement the AC buss from the batteries when needed (to the extent the batteries can support it).

With the Inverter/Converter function it acts as a solid state motor-generator set to smartly send power in both directions as dictated by it's sensors and programming. This is not your father's inverter.
Well, it seams I have just seen my first "Smart Inverter". I'll bet MANY folks don't know about this unit. But I will state that it does seem to have a lot off "Accessories that need to be bought to make it do all the things it says it can do. Just how much does the baby cost?
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 10:22 PM   #17
Site Team
 
16ACE27's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: ACE 27.1
State: Florida
Posts: 3,519
THOR #7035
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
I'm not sure on the 3012. I think it is a battery thing and no other constraint like the surge time is.
With the ags, which is controlled by the circuirltry of my inverter, I think it could go quite a while.

Anyone have a guess on how much battery would be used to add, say, 10 volts ac to the system for we'll say 48hours of bad shore power?
I'm thinking the standard two 24 series batteries would last a pretty long time before the generator kicked in(if it ever did. I'm sure the charger is working while the circuit is back feeding, so it could be months and months and months of time, if ever. I don't think a charger is too temperamental about input voltage variations.)

Except for parasitic, I think it would be like those tiny little 12v plug in inverters time wise.

Something else a 3012 can do when using an optionally available circuit:
It will selectively turn off circuits if the power gets low. You set the circuits, nine of them I think, telling it which order to turn them off either wholly or temporarily.
So the ac stays on and the coffee pot goes off and the lights stay on but the TV turns off.....

Seems life saving when you live off grid and have a cpap.

'coffees ready! Dads dead!'
Or
dammit dad! Your cpap kicked the coffee pot off of the inverter again! We need new batteries'
The inverter does not "add voltage" to the AC buss, it picks up some of the load of the AC buss so you have less load (amperage) from the other AC source reducing the line loss (I squared R losses) which raises voltage. It actually does this by raising frequency on the inverter but that's beyond the scope here. So your question has too many variables in the system to answer in general terms.
__________________
Ted & Melinda
2016 ACE 27.1
2016 Chevy Sonic Toad
16ACE27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 10:36 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
ducksface's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2018 24.1 AXISSIXxSIX
State: Arizona
Posts: 1,161
THOR #13932
So,
I've my understanding from the op and everything else said:
They can do away with autoformer if they want but other similar technology had been available for about 12 years.
Unless you're full time and the xantrex (and other brands) can't keep up, there's a way around it... If you even care at all.

I think only people who already have an autoformer would care to care.
We others? Why care now? We never cared before as proven by us not owning an autoformer.

What do we think autoformer ownership is compared to rv ownership?
1:100
1:1000
1:10,000

I think it's less than one in ten thousand....

But

I did platform some technology that has been missed by some.
__________________
Below is a link to most of my modifications either accomplished or pending.
https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f2...n-18996-3.html

Click on my pictures then click the pop-up for a full screen zoomable picture.
ducksface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 11:15 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Newmar Bay Star Sport 300
State: Alabama
Posts: 1,828
THOR #6826
Interesting stuff. Iíve got a Hughes Autoformer mounted in my electrical compartment and generally use it all the time. It only kicks in when voltage is 108 (I think). Before getting it I had seen voltages as low as 104 and 107-8 was not uncommon. I will be saddened if they are banned in RV parks as it works a treat. Iím a pretty upright, law abiding fellow but donít see myself throwing it away anytime soon.
__________________
Pete'sMH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 05:53 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
rynosback's Avatar
 
Brand: DRV
Model: 38 RSB3
State: South Dakota
Posts: 1,738
THOR #1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete'sMH View Post
Interesting stuff. Iíve got a Hughes Autoformer mounted in my electrical compartment and generally use it all the time. It only kicks in when voltage is 108 (I think). Before getting it I had seen voltages as low as 104 and 107-8 was not uncommon. I will be saddened if they are banned in RV parks as it works a treat. Iím a pretty upright, law abiding fellow but donít see myself throwing it away anytime soon.
Not sure about the age of your autoformer. Mine is only a couple years old.
This is from Hughes website:
At first we are tempted to say very Ďwellí. But this may not be the answer you are looking for!

Autoformers are used in industries to stabilize voltage and lower the operating cost of equipment. The Autoformer has 5 windings: 2 primary and 3 secondary. All models have surge and spike protection. When the unit is in Automatic and the park or input voltage is 116 volts or below, the output is 10% over the input. When the input is over 118 volts, the output is 2% over the input.

The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park.

It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.

What it is doing is changing the voltage Ė amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV

An Autoformer running at full output (50amps) will use 1 amp, but will cause appliances to cycle more often and run cooler. This will use less total power from the park.
__________________

__________________
2016 DRV38RSB3
2015 Ram 3500 Regular Cab DRW CTD Asian trans 410 rear
rynosback is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 06:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
×