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Old 09-14-2021, 01:41 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad View Post
Did you notice today... Members of Congress and Their Staff Are Exempt From Biden's Vaccine Mandate

Well... isn't THAT special. I'll just let that sink in awhile.
If Covid ran through Congress: would it serve them right?

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Old 09-14-2021, 01:43 AM   #342
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“The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few”, Spock
Yes sir, it is called the Greater Good


You want an interesting FACT...

2.36 billion people have been FULLY vaccinated Worldwide.
only 179 million Americans have been FULLY vaccinated.

Enough said, just let that sink in for a while.
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Old 09-14-2021, 01:58 AM   #343
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Yes sir, it is called the Greater Good


You want an interesting FACT...

2.36 billion people have been FULLY vaccinated Worldwide.
only 179 million Americans have been FULLY vaccinated.

Enough said, just let that sink in for a while.
And I'm a card carrying member! I'm gonna laminate mine with an American flag on the back!
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:41 AM   #344
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I don't have a dog in this fight. (Canadian). But I think I'm beginning to understand it a bit better. Thank you to everyone who has chimed in on this thread without the politics. It helps me understand better. Trying to score cheap political points turns me off.
Thanks to this thread, I can support people who do not want the vaccine - nor any proof of vaccination mandates. With a couple of "I'm not sure" in certain circumstances. The vaccines are supposed to be very good. As long as I'm vaccinated, I should not worry about anyone else. If you've decided not to get vaccinated (for whatever reason), that's your choice and consequences.
And now the times I'm struggling with that privilege. How do you propose protecting young children (under 12) or those with other medical conditions who cannot get the vaccine. I can protect myself by taking the vaccine. But they can't. Thoughts? (Help me understand.)
And, if a person decides to reject the vaccine, and they get sick, end up in the hospital taking up a very expensive bed and delaying a bed I may need for elective surgery. Who should pay the bill? And what do you say to me as I hobble around needing a hip replacement.
I guess a lot of this comes down to when (or even if) individual rights and freedoms infringe on others. Where is that line? And what happens if we accidently (no one wants to catch covid) cross that line. There are cases in the AIDs world where people have been charged with assault for not telling their partners they are positive. Is that too much?
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Old 09-14-2021, 03:17 AM   #345
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Some very good food for thought. Personally, I don't mind wearing a mask in public facilities (even though I'm protected) if it means helping prevent spread to a child or compromised elderly person - understanding I may still be a carrier.

I fully understand and respect the choice by someone refusing the vaccine, but I fully expect reciprocal treatment. If I am extending a courtesy to not spread my virus to you, respect my wishes to not have you spread your virus to me. Although it may not harm me directly, I could pass your virus to my grandkids. Just like second hand smoke. You're free to smoke 10 packs a day - just don't include me.

Nothing political... just respect and courtesy of fellow citizens. I call it a "do no harm" principle. You have complete liberty to do anything you wish REGARDLESS of other's opinions... AS LONG as you DO NO HARM to another individual. Fair enough?
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Old 09-14-2021, 03:25 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by yukongrant View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight. (Canadian). But I think I'm beginning to understand it a bit better. Thank you to everyone who has chimed in on this thread without the politics. It helps me understand better. Trying to score cheap political points turns me off.
Thanks to this thread, I can support people who do not want the vaccine - nor any proof of vaccination mandates. With a couple of "I'm not sure" in certain circumstances. The vaccines are supposed to be very good. As long as I'm vaccinated, I should not worry about anyone else. If you've decided not to get vaccinated (for whatever reason), that's your choice and consequences.
And now the times I'm struggling with that privilege. How do you propose protecting young children (under 12) or those with other medical conditions who cannot get the vaccine. I can protect myself by taking the vaccine. But they can't. Thoughts? (Help me understand.)
And, if a person decides to reject the vaccine, and they get sick, end up in the hospital taking up a very expensive bed and delaying a bed I may need for elective surgery. Who should pay the bill? And what do you say to me as I hobble around needing a hip replacement.
I guess a lot of this comes down to when (or even if) individual rights and freedoms infringe on others. Where is that line? And what happens if we accidently (no one wants to catch covid) cross that line. There are cases in the AIDs world where people have been charged with assault for not telling their partners they are positive. Is that too much?
Well said, I will only add that there have actually been a number of cases where plaintiffs were charged with Attempted Murder from spitting on someone, having sexual relations without disclosing etc.

I am just thankful we have a vaccine as an option. A lot of people (millions) worldwide died and they didn't have an option as vaccine was not available or readily available.
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Old 09-14-2021, 11:46 AM   #347
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I have always been told "on any controversial subject, follow the money and see who benefits." In the case of the vaccine, it seems that "settled science" only allows for expensive solutions - and the money made allows those that make it to control the narrative. If you want the jab, take it. But please answer me this, if the vaccine is so great, why are those that have taken it still vulnerable to the virus and need more and more shots? Again, follow the money.
Now that is a proven fact
More propaganda and fear than facts on all media, especially prime time

The money issue is real for you internet scholars on here

We have a huge family with 20 Uncles and Aunts combined

Across the family a few with flue like issues but overall less issues than flu season

Oh wait. No flu last year and maybe none this year

This has been the largest divide in US history in awhile

Certainly not over

The deaths reported are a tiny part of the normal 7500 per day

2.6 morbidity rate or higher

I believe in facts. Not fear
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Old 09-14-2021, 11:53 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
Yes sir, it is called the Greater Good


You want an interesting FACT...

2.36 billion people have been FULLY vaccinated Worldwide.
only 179 million Americans have been FULLY vaccinated.

Enough said, just let that sink in for a while.
Greater good is not the principle of the founding of this country. I know that civics and the constitution are seldom taught in this country anymore, but "greater good" is a political influence contrary to our founding principles. Individual freedoms were the "reason for the season" as they say and the founding fathers specifically laid out those individual freedoms to protect the people from an overreaching government. Overreaching like "show me your papers", you can't say that, you can't defend yourself, etc. That isn't political it's a fact of the original intent which is and was a darn good idea. Sadly it's been bastardized and eroded so it's ever important for the people of the USA to rabidly cling to what freedom principles remain.

Read where New Zealand is going to use facial recognition software to keep track of it's citizens in public arenas. In the 1930's a notable country decided that a segment of its population, and later that of neighboring countries, were not worthy to live. Certain Asian and east European countries decided that particular thought was dangerous and had too be eliminated or reeducated.

Mandates here are a dangerous trend, a slippery slope from what we may not peacefully recover. It's bad enough with some fringe groups regularly using violence to get their way. It's worse when elements that are becoming "mainstream" use them. I kind of liked the "old way" but I realistically don't see us getting back there. I'm old and feel sorry for the youth of this nation and what they will be facing if recent actual history is any indicator. People all over decried what the Taliban did in Afghanistan destroying the historical and religious statues and carvings but celebrate that same thing in the USA. That said we should hold onto what remaining shreds we have.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:13 PM   #349
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Thanks for dropping us into a Political discussion...
In your wildest dreams: how could unfettered individual freedom work out to be an effective governing theory?
I choose to NOT pay taxes... NOT rive on the right-hand side of the road... NOT think that bank robbing is counter-productive...
How long could you live in a society that was ruled by no rules???
The Greater Good must always be considered.... and balanced against individual freedoms.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:13 PM   #350
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Shocking revelation

I know this may surprise many, it surprises me, but we "got the stuck". Why, I ask myself often in fact. My GF a retired RN is opposed to many vaccines from a medical standpoint. I just don't like strange unproven things put in my body. I like to keep supposedly helpful things out if possible also I don't medicate because "I may develop some issue" according to certain experts.

Why??? Maybe the result of a beatdown. My GF recently went on a specialized tour of a remote national park and at the last minute the feds, and at the last minute the tour company organizing the tour imposed strict vaccine or frequent negative results of testing. The beatdown means you can't fly, go in certain facilities, etc. I got the stuck so I wouldn't be the one to prevent us from going places. If I was going to poison my body it was going to be only a one shot event. Do I feel suddenly free as a weight has been lifted and now suddenly "I'm safe", hell no.

Do medications work, certainly yes but when you have to resort to threats, intimidation, ridicule, bribery to get your medical way there's something hugely wrong with the picture.

Guess the bright side for many out there is I can now show my papers.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:16 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
Thanks for dropping us into a Political discussion...
In your wildest dreams: how could unfettered individual freedom work out to be an effective governing theory?
I choose to NOT pay taxes... NOT rive on the right-hand side of the road... NOT think that bank robbing is counter-productive...
How long could you live in a society that was ruled by no rules???
The Greater Good must always be considered.... and balanced against individual freedoms.
So I guess that you don't support the constitution and the founding principles? I'll have to admit that when I was in school as a wee lad, I had civics and constitutional classes taught. Some was I thought boring but the principals sunk in.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:16 PM   #352
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Based on your "queasiness" over the shot: have you scheduled a funeral yet for yourself?
Not tested?
Bullshit...
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:19 PM   #353
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Based on your "queasiness" over the shot: have you scheduled a funeral yet for yourself?
Not tested?
Bullshit...
No but when I develop a cardiac condition, or respiratory issue, I'll wonder if it's caused by or aggravated by what happened. No do overs in this case. Feel free to line up for every injection and test procedure you want and they recommend. You can have my doses and be super-protected. Maybe even super-duper-protected.

I'll prefer to have rational thought and exchanges not resort to intimidation or ridicule.

With that I'm out of here for this discussion. I'll see those interested in my thoughts over in the RV sections.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:37 PM   #354
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The side effects are nothing to worry about... unless it's 1959!

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Old 09-14-2021, 12:39 PM   #355
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Now that is a proven fact
More propaganda and fear than facts on all media, especially prime time

The money issue is real for you internet scholars on here

We have a huge family with 20 Uncles and Aunts combined

Across the family a few with flue like issues but overall less issues than flu season

Oh wait. No flu last year and maybe none this year

This has been the largest divide in US history in awhile

Certainly not over

The deaths reported are a tiny part of the normal 7500 per day

2.6 morbidity rate or higher

I believe in facts. Not fear
Don't the facts show this is Worldwide? I dispute any stated facts saying it is largest divide in US history as I believe 70% have already been vaccinated. It may actually be the silliest dispute in US History.

This is really about the pace for some US citizens to reach the 80-85% threshold for what we all hope is herd immunity. It is about doing so with respect and with original intent of no mandates. But with the pressure of everyone getting back to normal; it has been more vocal of late as large masses that have been vaccinated begin to grow weary and impatient with those refused to vaccinate, some with good reasons and other not so much.

Make no mistake, the day will come when we hit 90% and there will still be some with the deeply imbedded beliefs you state. The only question in my mind is where will the US stand Worldwide in leading the World to eradicate this pandemic? And I mean beyond just the mere technical pharmaceutical power / knowledge to have developed the vaccines that are available to us all WORLDWIDE.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:40 PM   #356
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I have yet to see conclusive evidence put forward without a slant or bias involving vax, children or total actual deaths.

Congress having an exemption is nonsense. That will make a further divide, thankfully am in Florida where all seem to remember rules/laws apply to all. None of the socialist politiboro caste system that is trying to wedge itself in.

Understanding that the slant/bias exists we tend to weigh overall family impacts more heavily than media or federal info.

We have had 1st shot. Ready for 2nd now but a little hesitant. After experience with son and wife, 4 children in a hotspot county. Either we very lucky or entire scenario is not effectively represented. I hear little and see little info on those who got and recovered? I would think it would a critical part of covid strategy. Maybe follow the money fits?

I do know while in WDW last September, family member fell in house in Miami breaking leg. Tested negative first day in hosp, positive 2nd day (2 tests) and negative 3rd and 4th day. Never had any flu like symptoms during stay. Once again, follow the money?

I will not anything out of media/govt fear mongering. Nor will I risk exposing others as we do not want to impact others. In current society, that seems unusual.

Do what fits for your situation. You are the one with full control of your actions and choices. Take the time to research both sides as neither has a concrete footing at this time. Hearsay is rampant.

Good luck to all. May you be able to get through these uncertain times without loss of health or freedom.

I would commemd the forum and users as all bring intelligent discussion and viewpoints.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:46 PM   #357
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Don't the facts show this is Worldwide? I dispute any stated facts saying it is largest divide in US history as I believe 70% have already been vaccinated. It may actually be the silliest dispute in US History.

This is really about the pace for some US citizens to reach the 80-85% threshold for what we all hope is herd immunity. It is about doing so with respect and with original intent of no mandates. But with the pressure of everyone getting back to normal; it has been more vocal of late as large masses that have been vaccinated begin to grow weary and impatient with those refused to vaccinate, some with good reasons and other not so much.

Make no mistake, the day will come when we hit 90% and there will still be some with the deeply imbedded beliefs you state. The only question in my mind is where will the US stand Worldwide in leading the World to eradicate this pandemic? And I mean beyond just the mere technical pharmaceutical power / knowledge to have developed the vaccines that are available to us all WORLDWIDE.
Why is there no mention of the recovered by authorities? If we are really at 70%, what is the naturally recovered/antibody laden percentage in addition? It would seem testing should include this to build an effective strategy.

Why is this question hanging without any real answer?

Trust comes from producing facts or in this conclusions drawn from studies, cherry picking should not be allowed.
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Old 09-14-2021, 01:47 PM   #358
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Thanks for dropping us into a Political discussion...
In your wildest dreams: how could unfettered individual freedom work out to be an effective governing theory?
I choose to NOT pay taxes... NOT rive on the right-hand side of the road... NOT think that bank robbing is counter-productive...
How long could you live in a society that was ruled by no rules???
The Greater Good must always be considered.... and balanced against individual freedoms.
Hear, Hear.
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Old 09-14-2021, 01:59 PM   #359
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Why is there no mention of the recovered by authorities? I don't know that it is not mentioned? Information can some time be where you are willing to find it.

If we are really at 70%, what is the naturally recovered/antibody laden percentage in addition? Yes we are really at 100%; if you don't believe that fact is it worth going further? It would seem testing should include this to build an effective strategy. To be honest, I really don't know what "naturally recovered/antibody laden percentage" means. I do know that it had ZERO impact on my decision to get a shot and whatever it may mean, it does not change the fact that 70% of US has been vaccinated.

Why is this question hanging without any real answer? If this is for me, it is the 1st I have heard the question, and I admit I do know if there are real answers or not. I don't watch much TV, but I have seen enough to know that you can watch watch you want to hear and what you don't want to hear.

Trust comes from producing facts or in this conclusions drawn from studies, cherry picking should not be allowed.
Trust? Cherry picking? Not sure I caught the point in full, but did I say something that was wrong, or misinformed? I will correct any errors I can before the edit windows closes.
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:05 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwmcguir View Post
Now that is a proven fact
More propaganda and fear than facts on all media, especially prime time

The money issue is real for you internet scholars on here

We have a huge family with 20 Uncles and Aunts combined

Across the family a few with flue like issues but overall less issues than flu season

Oh wait. No flu last year and maybe none this year

This has been the largest divide in US history in awhile

Certainly not over

The deaths reported are a tiny part of the normal 7500 per day

2.6 morbidity rate or higher

I believe in facts. Not fear
Natural immunity is 20 times more effective than vaccine.

If the vaccine works I do not care if you are vaccinated.Just like the other COVID viruses (there are 4 others) if I get it now it will be mild.

I am vaccinated as I am 68. To each their own.
People in their 30's have a 99.97% survival rate.

Also: if you are wearing anything other than a N-95 mask properly fitted you are not protected. A cloth or little blue mask is like wearing a condom with holes in it.
As far as the AIDS thing: that is the typical binary false choice comparison.
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