Adding House Batteries - Where and How Many?

[2soon]

We have the 22E with the E 450 chassis.
The first thing I did was put in a second battery
that is the same size as the one that came with the unit.
Also put in an A / B switch for the batteries to be used separate
or in tandem if needed.
Also made a spare tire carrier that fits under the rear, and also made
a stone guard to protect the transmission cooler.
Ford definitely missed the design flaw on this one for protection
of the cooler.
Other amenities are; rear camera, quick attach propane line for

Mr. Buddy heater and CB radio.


I swear at times that RV makes the same noises as my wife!
But I can understand the RV (Hope she don't see this post) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tuchmybuttercups]

Originally Posted by 2soon

We have the 22E with the E 450 chassis.
The first thing I did was put in a second battery
that is the same size as the one that came with the unit.
Also put in an A / B switch for the batteries to be used separate
or in tandem if needed.
Also made a spare tire carrier that fits under the rear, and also made
a stone guard to protect the transmission cooler.
Ford definitely missed the design flaw on this one for protection
of the cooler.
Other amenities are; rear camera, quick attach propane line for

Mr. Buddy heater and CB radio.


I swear at times that RV makes the same noises as my wife!
But I can understand the RV (Hope she don't see this post) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Second battery went in where the first is?
How did you organize them? Post pics if ya got em.
Room for a third? My power audit calls for 300 usable amp-hours. So far what I've found is people are barely squeezing two in.
Why an A/B switch?

[JimC]

1. "Lithium batteries fit anywhere inside the house you want to put them."
2. "I have the 22E and there is only room for 1 more battery, unless you make a modify the tray, like taylorbob1 mentioned.
3. "You didn't say how many solar panels you want to use, but there is not much room on the roof as the 22E is only 24'. Maybe 3 or 4- 100 watt panels."

1. Thor says Lithium batteries are incompatable with the shore power DC converter, Solar controller, and the wiring for the vehicle charging system.
2. I have the 22GO[Chevy]. The only real difference in the coach is that I have an oven where you have a drawer. I installed one additional 12v battery under the step. I suggest that you get a sealed no-maint. battery because it is difficult to check the water level in the last two cells in the second battery. I am toying with the idea of adding two more batteries as mentioned above.
3. I was told by Thor Customer service that the Go-Power solar controller that came with my coach can only handle one 100W panel. You may want to check.
4. I mounted one rigid 100W Renogy solar panel to my roof on C-channel rails. Thor can email you a diagram of the aluminum coach frame structure with dimensions if you call them. It is easiest to measure from the forward edge of the rearmost roof vent frame.
5. Using battery power, I have run my refrigerator, hot water heater, and furnace all night, with the TV, antenna, ceiling lights and DVD player from about 5:30 to 10:30PM, without problems. The TV and DVD are powered by a 1500/3000W inverter I installed.
JC

[tuchmybuttercups]

Originally Posted by JimC

1. "Lithium batteries fit anywhere inside the house you want to put them."
2. "I have the 22E and there is only room for 1 more battery, unless you make a modify the tray, like taylorbob1 mentioned.
3. "You didn't say how many solar panels you want to use, but there is not much room on the roof as the 22E is only 24'. Maybe 3 or 4- 100 watt panels."

1. Thor says Lithium batteries are incompatable with the shore power DC converter, Solar controller, and the wiring for the vehicle charging system.
2. I have the 22GO[Chevy]. The only real difference in the coach is that I have an oven where you have a drawer. I installed one additional 12v battery under the step. I suggest that you get a sealed no-maint. battery because it is difficult to check the water level in the last two cells in the second battery. I am toying with the idea of adding two more batteries as mentioned above.
3. I was told by Thor Customer service that the Go-Power solar controller that came with my coach can only handle one 100W panel. You may want to check.
4. I mounted one rigid 100W Renogy solar panel to my roof on C-channel rails. Thor can email you a diagram of the aluminum coach frame structure with dimensions if you call them. It is easiest to measure from the forward edge of the rearmost roof vent frame.
5. Using battery power, I have run my refrigerator, hot water heater, and furnace all night, with the TV, antenna, ceiling lights and DVD player from about 5:30 to 10:30PM, without problems. The TV and DVD are powered by a 1500/3000W inverter I installed.
JC

Thanks for your post

1. This news to me that specific battery types can't be used with specific systems. "Electricity, when I thought I was getting to know you, you throw me another curve ball". I plan to replace the charge controller, inverter, I guess now converter, and whatever else is needed to survive off a LiFePO4 bank.
2. My first preference is LiFePO4 batteries, last is flooded. Low weight and low maintenance.
4. I will need 400-600W of power coming in. There looked to be room on the roof when I saw the vehicle, I plan to go with 200W panels. Do I need to drill into the aluminum frame? It's a TPO roof so I was thinking I'd secure to the wood surface the TPO adheres to...
5. That sounds like a lot. I can't imagine a 100W panel can replenish all that.

[taylorbob1]

Thanks JimC for a great analysis
You’ve got a set-up that only the expensive Diesel Pushers have.

[bry899]

Originally Posted by tuchmybuttercups

Thanks for your post


4. I will need 400-600W of power coming in. There looked to be room on the roof when I saw the vehicle, I plan to go with 200W panels. Do I need to drill into the aluminum frame? It's a TPO roof so I was thinking I'd secure to the wood surface the TPO adheres to...

You want to mount the solar panels to the roof frame, the wood is too thin.

[JimC]

"1. This news to me that specific battery types can't be used with specific systems. "Electricity, when I thought I was getting to know you, you throw me another curve ball". I plan to replace the charge controller, inverter, I guess now converter, and whatever else is needed to survive off a LiFePO4 bank.
2. My first preference is LiFePO4 batteries, last is flooded. Low weight and low maintenance.
4. I will need 400-600W of power coming in. There looked to be room on the roof when I saw the vehicle, I plan to go with 200W panels. Do I need to drill into the aluminum frame? It's a TPO roof so I was thinking I'd secure to the wood surface the TPO adheres to...
5. That sounds like a lot. I can't imagine a 100W panel can replenish all that."


#1. The difference has to do with the charging rate curves and float levels required for the LiPo4 and flooded/sealed batteries.
#4. If you use rigid panels, I absolutely recommend drilling into the frame. The wood layer under your TPO roof is about 1/8 in. thick and is not capable of holding against much force. A month ago, on the KS turnpike, we encountered 55-60mph cross winds over a 40 mile stretch. The speed limit was 75mph but I was driving 50-55mph to be able to keep it on the highway. [I'll let someone else figure out the vector forces involved.] I really don't know if the solar panel could have survived that wind force if I had only drilled into the wood. At best, I would guess that there would have been enough roof flex to potentially create a leak. At worst, I can't even imagine how much damage a 30" x 48" aluminum framed panel flopping around on the roof in those winds might have caused.
#5. I started with very a full charge on the batteries after driving for four hours. I had plenty of juice left to start my generator about 7:30AM.the next morning, and soon after continued my trip. If I were stationary for multiple days without running the generator or truck motor, I'm not sure just how long the batteries could be sustained.
JC
JC

[tuchmybuttercups]

Originally Posted by JimC

"1. This news to me that specific battery types can't be used with specific systems. "Electricity, when I thought I was getting to know you, you throw me another curve ball". I plan to replace the charge controller, inverter, I guess now converter, and whatever else is needed to survive off a LiFePO4 bank.
2. My first preference is LiFePO4 batteries, last is flooded. Low weight and low maintenance.
4. I will need 400-600W of power coming in. There looked to be room on the roof when I saw the vehicle, I plan to go with 200W panels. Do I need to drill into the aluminum frame? It's a TPO roof so I was thinking I'd secure to the wood surface the TPO adheres to...
5. That sounds like a lot. I can't imagine a 100W panel can replenish all that."


#1. The difference has to do with the charging rate curves and float levels required for the LiPo4 and flooded/sealed batteries.
#4. If you use rigid panels, I absolutely recommend drilling into the frame. The wood layer under your TPO roof is about 1/8 in. thick and is not capable of holding against much force. A month ago, on the KS turnpike, we encountered 55-60mph cross winds over a 40 mile stretch. The speed limit was 75mph but I was driving 50-55mph to be able to keep it on the highway. [I'll let someone else figure out the vector forces involved.] I really don't know if the solar panel could have survived that wind force if I had only drilled into the wood. At best, I would guess that there would have been enough roof flex to potentially create a leak. At worst, I can't even imagine how much damage a 30" x 48" aluminum framed panel flopping around on the roof in those winds might have caused.
#5. I started with very a full charge on the batteries after driving for four hours. I had plenty of juice left to start my generator about 7:30AM.the next morning, and soon after continued my trip. If I were stationary for multiple days without running the generator or truck motor, I'm not sure just how long the batteries could be sustained.
JC
JC

Good info. Thanks for your response.
I do plan to use rigid panels.
One last question - how did fasten to the C-frame? Screw? Bolt with nut?

[Gulo]

Buttercup - we have the Thor 23U (Four Winds) which is similar in size to yours, and there were 2 lead acid batteries under the stairs which I hated because maintenance was difficult, so:



1. We upgraded and moved 2 Lithium BB batteries inside underneath the sofa section adjacent to the fridge (removing a seat belt and metal support) which eliminated issues with the elements and charging below 32 degrees, plus filled the now empty stairs underneath with insulation board to reduce air leakage. Later added a 3rd battery for 300 amp hours.



2. We bolted 4x - 170 watt solar panels with brackets to the TPO roof using wellnuts 8 per panel using threaded stainless steel 1/4 x 1/2 x 1/16 bolts, eternabond tape, and Dicor. I was concerned about the thin wood and foam in the roof but its worked like a charm the rubber wellnuts seals the entry point - apply dicor into the wellnut and on the bolt to complete the seal before securing the panels. The eternabond tape is adhered over the bracket then screw in the bolts......once the bolts are tight {DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN} Apply dicor liberally covering bracket and bolts.



See Solar Mounting kit PDF at batterystuff.com for a visual or print for wellnut image and info.



3. All we do is boondock, no RV parks so our 30 amp plug is rarely used....I hope this helps.

We use our TV, and laptops liberally, removed the microwave, installed LED interior lights, use a electric blanket,oil-filled radiator, electric skillet, and have plenty of amp hours. Propane is used for the fridge/freezer, heating water for showers, cooking and back up heat.



4. We are always concerned about wind - similar to JC we drive 50-55 mph, however we avoid the 65-75 MPH interstates whenever possible even before installing the panels...there are areas of Wyoming, eastern Montana, and gorge in Oregon that can be extremely dangerous - I've seen many a semi on its side on dry highways.


Best Wishes in your Travels.



Gulo

_______________________

2013 Four Winds 23U
2020 Ford Escape Hybrid

Trimetric 2030 Battery Monitor
Trimetric SC 2030 Charge Controller

[tuchmybuttercups]

Originally Posted by Gulo

Buttercup - we have the Thor 23U (Four Winds) which is similar in size to yours, and there were 2 lead acid batteries under the stairs which I hated because maintenance was difficult, so:



1. We upgraded and moved 2 Lithium BB batteries inside underneath the sofa section adjacent to the fridge (removing a seat belt and metal support) which eliminated issues with the elements and charging below 32 degrees, plus filled the now empty stairs underneath with insulation board to reduce air leakage. Later added a 3rd battery for 300 amp hours.



2. We bolted 4x - 170 watt solar panels with brackets to the TPO roof using wellnuts 8 per panel using threaded stainless steel 1/4 x 1/2 x 1/16 bolts, eternabond tape, and Dicor. I was concerned about the thin wood and foam in the roof but its worked like a charm the rubber wellnuts seals the entry point - apply dicor into the wellnut and on the bolt to complete the seal before securing the panels. The eternabond tape is adhered over the bracket then screw in the bolts......once the bolts are tight {DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN} Apply dicor liberally covering bracket and bolts.



See Solar Mounting kit PDF at batterystuff.com for a visual or print for wellnut image and info.



3. All we do is boondock, no RV parks so our 30 amp plug is rarely used....I hope this helps.

We use our TV, and laptops liberally, removed the microwave, installed LED interior lights, use a electric blanket,oil-filled radiator, electric skillet, and have plenty of amp hours. Propane is used for the fridge/freezer, heating water for showers, cooking and back up heat.



4. We are always concerned about wind - similar to JC we drive 50-55 mph, however we avoid the 65-75 MPH interstates whenever possible even before installing the panels...there are areas of Wyoming, eastern Montana, and gorge in Oregon that can be extremely dangerous - I've seen many a semi on its side on dry highways.


Best Wishes in your Travels.



Gulo

_______________________

2013 Four Winds 23U
2020 Ford Escape Hybrid

Trimetric 2030 Battery Monitor
Trimetric SC 2030 Charge Controller

Good stuff, thanks for sharing.

Do you know how thick the wood roof is?

[bry899]

Originally Posted by tuchmybuttercups

Good stuff, thanks for sharing.

Do you know how thick the wood roof is?

The wood on the roof is too thin to secure anything to it. Jim C said it is about 1/8" thick, and a google search states 1/4" thick.
But either way 1/8" or 1/4" is not structurally strong enough to hold Rigid solar panels at highway speed.
Anything mounted on the roof should be secured to the framing structure.
I wouldn't want to be behind you when they fly off.

[ducksface]

Controllers and converters are incredibly cheap.
Don't let the bare minimal Thor supplied stuff slow you down.
If you're willing to pay for lithium for not much reason, the controllers are but 5 or 10% of your battery cost.

Do yourself a favor
Buy a much bigger inverter than you think you'll ever need.
Discard all the system supplied with your unit.

If you're serious, you'll want big, not just adequate.

Xantrex 3000w for me.
Built in 450 amp charger, a monster converter, and a touch of a button and it's set for any battery type available., and then customizable beyond that.
It's stackable to 6,000 watt for sure, maybe higher.

I don't have to worry about moderation or remove a microwave.
My roof ac unit runs through that inverter.

I don't have solar. I had a huge system in the past, all xantrex top end. No need for it in an rv but it was nice in the trailer as it sat while we were in the truck and gone.
The v10 uses less than 7/10gph and the generator about the same.

Consider
Automatic generator starter.

In my build thread in my signature I show the mock battery I made out of foam board so I'd know for DAMN Sure if it would fit where I thought it might and I show the placement for three batteries in each front wheel well.
It also shows the GIANT battery box on my passenger side.

[Pete'sMH]

I’m not sure I agree. Lots of stuff up there is only fastened to the roof panel and it’s strong enough to walk on and most dealers will just screw panels down to it. Notwithstanding, I wanted mine to be more secure so I used an ordinary stud finder to locate the roof “rafters”. On my coach they are aluminum 16o.c. and were easily found. I was able to fasten all six screws of my 36 inch long panels into 3 different rafters. My panel isn’t going anywhere. Might as well make it as strong as you can.

[bry899]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

I’m not sure I agree. Lots of stuff up there is only fastened to the roof panel and it’s strong enough to walk on and most dealers will just screw panels down to it. Notwithstanding, I wanted mine to be more secure so I used an ordinary stud finder to locate the roof “rafters”. On my coach they are aluminum 16o.c. and were easily found. I was able to fasten all six screws of my 36 inch long panels into 3 different rafters. My panel isn’t going anywhere. Might as well make it as strong as you can.

Just curious what items are just secured to the roof and not the rafters?

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by bry899

Just curious what items are just secured to the roof and not the rafters?

On mine the radio and tv antennas, WiFi extender, satellite dome, roof vents and even the air conditioners are not attached to the rafters.

[JimC]

Originally Posted by tuchmybuttercups

Good info. Thanks for your response.
I do plan to use rigid panels.
1. One last question - how did fasten to the C-frame? Screw? Bolt with nut?
2. From another post: Why 4 6Vs and not 2 12Vs? Going into this project I was focused on using 12V, but this forum has reminded me of the existence of 6V, so trying to see which is better for my application.
3. From Bry899: The wood on the roof is too thin to secure anything to it. Jim C said it is about 1/8" thick, and a google search states 1/4" thick.
But either way 1/8" or 1/4" is not structurally strong enough to hold Rigid solar panels at highway speed.
Anything mounted on the roof should be secured to the framing structure.
I wouldn't want to be behind you when they fly off.

1. I used 1/4 inch by ~1 1/2 inch brass toilet bowl bolts with washers and locking nuts.
2. 4 6Vs connected with 2 pairs of batteries connected in series, and those pairs connected in parallel, will give you 12V but with greater load capacity than just two 12V batteries. However, the same amount of space will be taken by the 4-6Vs as 4-12Vs which would give you higher total load capacity.
3. On page 1, top left corner, of Thor Owner Resources Spec Document TRF1008-01.PDF, the wood product under the TPO is 2.7mm [=~0.106in=~1/10th in.]LAUAN. Under that is Foam/Frame, and then a ceiling panel of 1/4in vinyl covered wood. The aluminum frame is 1x1.5x0.04in square tubing. I highly suggest that you download this document prior to mounting anything to the roof as it also gives all specs & dimensions on the roof assembly. I used sheet metal screws through the C-channels into the aluminum, with lots of DICOR.

[JimC]

Originally Posted by 1. Originally Posted by bry899 View Post
Just curious what items are just secured to the roof and not the rafters?
2. Pete'sMH;270521

On mine the radio and tv antennas, WiFi extender, satellite dome, roof vents and even the air conditioners are not attached to the rafters.

2. On the Thor 22 series class C's, the AC is mounted through a 14x14in vent frame on the roof. Vents, skylights,& refrigerator vent are all welded to the roof frame. Other less heavy or smaller aerodynamic objects as mentioned above may be mounted on/through the TPO/2.7mm Lauan/foam/1/4in ceiling pannels IAW Thor TRF1008-1.PDF.

[2soon]

Here are pics of my batteries and
the A / B switch.
Also a pic of the cooler guard that I made.

[tuchmybuttercups]

Originally Posted by JimC

1. I used 1/4 inch by ~1 1/2 inch brass toilet bowl bolts with washers and locking nuts.
2. 4 6Vs connected with 2 pairs of batteries connected in series, and those pairs connected in parallel, will give you 12V but with greater load capacity than just two 12V batteries. However, the same amount of space will be taken by the 4-6Vs as 4-12Vs which would give you higher total load capacity.
3. On page 1, top left corner, of Thor Owner Resources Spec Document TRF1008-01.PDF, the wood product under the TPO is 2.7mm [=~0.106in=~1/10th in.]LAUAN. Under that is Foam/Frame, and then a ceiling panel of 1/4in vinyl covered wood. The aluminum frame is 1x1.5x0.04in square tubing. I highly suggest that you download this document prior to mounting anything to the roof as it also gives all specs & dimensions on the roof assembly. I used sheet metal screws through the C-channels into the aluminum, with lots of DICOR.

3a. 2.7mm sounds too thin to mount to, or even stand on. Maybe other models are thicker or the "rafters" are spaced closed to each other...

3b. I searched for this document in the Owner's Resource Vehicle Documents, couldn't find anything. I may need to call Thor to obtain.

[JimC]

Originally Posted by tuchmybuttercups

3a. 2.7mm sounds too thin to mount to, or even stand on. Maybe other models are thicker or the "rafters" are spaced closed to each other...

3b. I searched for this document in the Owner's Resource Vehicle Documents, couldn't find anything. I may need to call Thor to obtain.

3a. The framework is on ~14in centers for most of the coach.
3b. I tried to attach the file to this post. We'll see if it works.
JC