Adding inverter circuits or receptacles to Omni

[Beau388]

It is easy to remember, it takes slight less the 60 lbs of lead to make a 100 ampere-hour battery @ 12 volts in any lead acid battery. It does matter is 6 two volt cells in one case weighing 63 lbs, two 32 lb cases of 3 cells each or 6 individual cells weighing 11 lbs each in separate cases. So, 600 amp-h @ 12 volts requires about 360 lbs of lead and it doesn't mater how it is packaged - flooded, VRLA, AGM or gel, as the chemistry is all the same. I just wish lithium-ion chemistry was as simple.

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Yeah, imbedded terminology vs technical terminology can bite you on the Interwebs. Like you, I come from Naval Electical Distribution systems so I know what you meant: L1 is 180 degrees out of phase with L2 in reference to their common center tap; so that is a 2 phase supply with reference to the neutral/ground. But in reference to each other, it is a single phase source.

For those that get bent out of shape when calling it a two phase supply, what would they call two of the three legs of a Wye connected transformer? The two phases are 120 degrees out of phase with respect to the transformer's common center tap but it is still a single phase supply with respect to each other.

We could really throw a wrench in and start talking peak voltages instead of RMS voltages and Apparent Power, Reactive Power and Real Power.

To convert from single phase to split phase requires only a center tapped single transformer. To convert from single phase to poly- phase requires a rotatory converter. Poly-phase is the most efficient way to use the amps available to produce rotary power. Three phase is the most common poly-phase as most power plant generators produced are made in the 3 phase poly-phase configuration, plus the US national grids are setup for 3 phase, poly-phase thanks to George Westinghouse and Nicola Tesla. If you own the generator, transmission network and the use devices, you can ship the current any way you like as Edison did or the Navy does on ships or Air Force does on aircraft. I prefer 400 cycle poly-phase AC, if the weight of the wire is important.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by Beau388

600 amp-h @ 12 volts requires about 360 lbs of lead and it doesn't mater how it is packaged - flooded, VRLA, AGM or gel, as the chemistry is all the same.

That's what I expected. So, I'm still confused.

Why are 6-volt batteries so popular? It takes twice as many cables to hook up a bunch of them.

The only advantage I can see is that they weigh half as much as a 12-battery, for those of us who no longer like to lug heavy objects.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

That's what I expected. So, I'm still confused.

Why are 6-volt batteries so popular? It takes twice as many cables to hook up a bunch of them.

The only advantage I can see is that they weigh half as much as a 12-battery, for those of us who no longer like to lug heavy objects.

6V batteries are true deep cycle batteries and designed to be discharged more compared to a 12V deep cycle (the stock batteries can typically by starting batteries as well as deep cycle). Golf Carts, Floor Scrubbers, and other similar equipment use 6V and are deeply disrcharged many, many times. They temd to perform better over longer periods of time.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

That's what I expected. So, I'm still confused.

Why are 6-volt batteries so popular? It takes twice as many cables to hook up a bunch of them. Nope, half as many cables compared to putting 12 volt batteries in parallel.

The only advantage I can see is that they weigh half as much as a 12-battery, for those of us who no longer like to lug heavy objects.

That's the main advantage.

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

That's what I expected. So, I'm still confused.

Why are 6-volt batteries so popular? It takes twice as many cables to hook up a bunch of them.

The only advantage I can see is that they weigh half as much as a 12-battery, for those of us who no longer like to lug heavy objects.

About 80% of the 6 volt batteries made are group CG-2 deep cycle and are used in golf carts. The production line for CG-2 is nearly always running, so this is the cheapest of the deep cycle batteries per amp-h and the most readily available. Newer golf carts use group GC-8 deep cycle batteries but these are not usable in most all RVs. The big user medium size 12 volt deep cycle batteries is the marine industry and for trolling motors.
It is hard to beat a 12 volt group 29 VRLA battery on dollar/amp-h bases even if is listed as marine/RV.

[cavie]

you guys are wasting your time on Wiley1. I gave up trying to explain 120/240 single phase to him. He has no knowledge of a split-phase system derived from a single phase. Good Luck.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by Beau388

About 80% of the 6 volt batteries made are group CG-2 deep cycle and are used in golf carts. The production line for CG-2 is nearly always running, so this is the cheapest of the deep cycle batteries per amp-h and the most readily available. Newer golf carts use group GC-8 deep cycle batteries but these are not usable in most all RVs. The big user medium size 12 volt deep cycle batteries is the marine industry and for trolling motors.
It is hard to beat a 12 volt group 29 VRLA battery on dollar/amp-h bases even if is listed as marine/RV.

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. My 2017 Club Car uses six 8-volt batteries. Why? Wouldn't it make more sense for somebody to build a 12-volt deep cycle? Then I would only need 4 of them.

In my boat, I have a Group 29 battery from WalMart. That thing is amazing.
860 MCA. It wouldn't take much for Johnson Controls to turn that battery into a golf cart battery. Why they ain't done that?

(Is it possible that we've stayed a bit off topic?)

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. My 2017 Club Car uses six 8-volt batteries. Why? Wouldn't it make more sense for somebody to build a 12-volt deep cycle? Then I would only need 4 of them.

In my boat, I have a Group 29 battery from WalMart. That thing is amazing.
860 MCA. It wouldn't take much for Johnson Controls to turn that battery into a golf cart battery. Why they ain't done that?

(Is it possible that we've stayed a bit off topic?)

What are you confused about?

Have you lifted those 8 volt batteries? Now add half again as much weight to each individual battery.

A 48 volt golf car doesn't care if it gets the 48 volts from (8) six volt batteries, (6) 8 volt batteries, or (4) 12 volt batteries. The difference is the ability to handle each individual battery. It is cheaper for the manufacturer to have fewer batteries (less interconnecting cables) but they have to draw the compromise line somewhere.
There are 12 Volt true deep cycle batteries with over 200 AH each but as mentioned before they are HEAVY. Heck, they could (and maybe do already) make a single 48 volt 200+ AH battery but you would need a crane or forklift to move it.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

It is cheaper for the manufacturer to have fewer batteries (less interconnecting cables)

The exact point that I've been stressing. Why have eight 6-volt batteries when you could have four 12-volt batteries?

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

There are 12 Volt true deep cycle batteries with over 200 AH each but as mentioned before they are HEAVY.

Nobody talks about how much a 12-volt car battery weighs because most people never lift one - they pay a mechanic to do it - and most LA batteries are only changed every 3-4 years. Nobody puts two 6-volt batteries in their car to reduce the weight.

If you're saying that a true deep cycle battery weighs significantly more than a car battery of the same physical size and voltage, then the concept of an 8-volt deep cycle battery is starting to make a lot more sense.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by cavie

you guys are wasting your time on Wiley1. I gave up trying to explain 120/240 single phase to him. He has no knowledge of a split-phase system derived from a single phase. Good Luck.

This is a forum. A forum is a place where people discuss things. Why would you suggest that explaining something to somebody is a waste of time?

In this thread, we're talking about batteries, 6v vs 8v vs 12v, even though that wasn't the original topic. What does that have to do with "a split-phase system derived from a single phase" ?

By the way, yes, I do admit that my knowledge of 120/240 systems is limited. My training came from the US Navy a long time ago. Electrical systems on a ship are vastly different than at your house. I've worked as an electrician in two hospitals and those systems are radically different, too. I thought we were all here to share our knowledge, not criticize one another.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Originally Posted by Wiley1
Why are 6-volt batteries so popular? It takes twice as many cables to hook up a bunch of them.

Nope, half as many cables compared to putting 12 volt batteries in parallel.

But you're comparing apples to oranges.
You would need four 6-volt batteries to get the same bank capacity as a pair of 12-volt batteries.

If we ignore the two main leads,

one 12-volt battery needs 0 cables
two 6-volt batteries in series need 1 cable
two 12-volt batteries in parallel need 2 cables
four 6-volt batteries in series-parallel need 4 cables

But, I was also wrong. A 6-volt pair needs only one additional cable compared to a single 12-volt battery. Not twice as many.

The smaller the battery, the more cables will be needed to interconnect the bank.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

The exact point that I've been stressing. Why have eight 6-volt batteries when you could have four 12-volt batteries?



Nobody talks about how much a 12-volt car battery weighs because most people never lift one - they pay a mechanic to do it - and most LA batteries are only changed every 3-4 years. Nobody puts two 6-volt batteries in their car to reduce the weight.

If you're saying that a true deep cycle battery weighs significantly more than a car battery of the same physical size and voltage, then the concept of an 8-volt deep cycle battery is starting to make a lot more sense.

It's not just the voltage of a battery, but the energy stored in a battery that determines its weight. As someone already mentioned, the energy stored is directly correlated to the weight of lead in the battery. Look at a Honda CRV battery - 12 Volts and teeny-tiny compared to a Silverado battery.

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. My 2017 Club Car uses six 8-volt batteries. Why? Wouldn't it make more sense for somebody to build a 12-volt deep cycle? Then I would only need 4 of them.

In my boat, I have a Group 29 battery from WalMart. That thing is amazing.
860 MCA. It wouldn't take much for Johnson Controls to turn that battery into a golf cart battery. Why they ain't done that?

(Is it possible that we've stayed a bit off topic?)

6 group GC-8 flooded, deep cycle cost $900 and provide 165 amp hours @ 48 volts and weight 68 lbs each. 4 group 4D batteries flooded, deep cycle batteries cost $1,000 and provide 200 amp hours @ 48 volts and weight 107 lbs. Why spend a $100 more for the basic cart? Those are the cheapest advertised prices Bing could find.

As I have said, all golf cart batteries from the factories are deep cycle flooded because there are the cheapest per amp-h. Optional are AGMs for about $700 more and Lithium at about $1800 more.

My old E-Z GO (2004) uses 6 GC-2 - 225 amp-h @ 36 volts (3.4 hp). It still maxes out at 19.1 mph but has to be recharged about every 8 miles. That is a weeks driving around the Village.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by Beau388

6 group GC-8 flooded, deep cycle cost $900 and provide 165 amp hours @ 48 volts and weight 68 lbs each. 4 group 4D batteries flooded, deep cycle batteries cost $1,000 and provide 200 amp hours @ 48 volts and weight 107 lbs. Why spend a $100 more for the basic cart?

Thanks for providing those figures. I also found an 8v 160ah Interstate battery at Costco for $112. Seems like a no-brainer.

Why spend the extra $100? I guess it depends on how you use your golf cart. I agree that the additional capacity doesn't matter much when your typical trip between charges is 2 or 3 miles. But, we're planning a few golf cart excursions on wooded trails where we will be gone most of the day. I'd hate to be 3 miles from camp with a dead battery, cussing myself for not buying the larger battery, when the sun is going down.

I found this chart today:



At the same total voltage, the larger the battery, the lower the cost per ah. That makes sense. But what about some of these other numbers?
Why would you get more minutes with a 6v battery?
Why would the Depth of Discharge be less for a 6v battery?

[Beau388]

If a battery is made to deep cycle standards, the manufacturer and reseller will proudly advertise it as deep cycle. If it can be used for both starting and running a trolling motor, it is labeled as marine and some times marine/RV. If the battery was indeed deep cycle, it would be advertised as such. A marine battery has medium thin plates, as opposed to the thick plates of a true deep cycle. A marine battery uses more the alloying element (less lead), so the thin plates can standup to the pounding of a bass boat at speed. A marine battery has thicker separator between the plates to cushion the plates A marine battery is capable of several times current of that a deep cycle battery. Marine can be seriously damaged if the resting voltage drops below 12.15 volts for more than an hour or two (hard suflation). Drawing amperage more that 50% of a deep cycle's amp-h capacity will damage a deep cycle, but not a marine battery. The cycle life of a marine battery will be less than a deep cycle if subjected to the same conditions.

[IDguy]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

That's what I expected. So, I'm still confused.

Why are 6-volt batteries so popular? It takes twice as many cables to hook up a bunch of them.

The only advantage I can see is that they weigh half as much as a 12-battery, for those of us who no longer like to lug heavy objects.

6 v batteries take no more cables than 12 v. You hook them in series vs. parallel. The short cable that connected your two red posts goes from red to black. Actually less because you also had to connect your two 12 v grounds.

Golf cart six volts are popular because you can get about 50% more energy storage than 12 v deep cycle. But interstate now has a 12 v GC that is even better...for about 3 times the price.

[Tire]

I switched all my 110 outlets (accept the AC) to a new sub panel. Ran new, seperate lines, from the new inverter to the new sub panel. Took all the existing 110 lines out of the existing panel and relocated those to the new sub panel. Now I can run everything accept the AC from the inverter.
Obviously I changed the batteries (400a Lithuim) inverter/charger etc And put 1200w of solar on the roof. I never run the generator unless I'm parked under trees for longer than 4 days.

[lwmcguire]

We had GEM cars for years at the lake

6 12v and I ran Gel first and then AGM 12v deep cycle

Interesting discussion on electrical theory

I have many years experience in paper mills electrical department

Both low voltage 480 and high voltage equipment

Lots of auto transformer starters for large motors

Synchronous motors plus lots of old and new technology working to produce paper