Adding inverter circuits or receptacles to Omni

[cupajoe147]

I have a 2022 Omni SV34 arriving at my dealership soon. After reading through the forum, I've learned that the 2000w Xantrex inverter is tied to 2 of 3 TVs, both refrigerator and one receptacle next to the bed. This seems rather limiting if doing a lot of boon docking. I will be beefing up the solar system to 650w and would like to operate the bedroom TV, the satellite receiver, apple TV box and some kitchen appliances from the inverter. Has anyone had success adding circuits or receptacles to the inverted system?

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by cupajoe147

Has anyone had success adding circuits or receptacles to the inverter system?

When I bought my inverter a few years ago, I had to make a decision. Do I connect it to just certain outlets, or get an inverter that can power the entire electrical panel?

For me, that decision was simple because my coach is a little 24 foot class-C. The inverter I selected is 2500 watts with a peak of 7500 watts. At 120 volts, single phase, that works out to nearly 21 amps, enough to run anything and everything except the AC.

I believe your new Super-C has 50-amp service which is usually 2-phase. Most likely, your inverter is single-phase which explains why it serves only half of the outlets and appliances in your coach.

My experience with 2-phase RV electrical systems is limited, but it seem like you might have 2 options:
1. Replace the inverter with a larger 2-phase inverter. To be effective, you will likely need more battery capacity.
2. Add a second inverter for the second phase. It can be powered from the same battery bank. However, you would have to exclude any 240-volt appliance that needs both phases in sync with each other, like an electric dryer.

There may be a way to add another Xantrex inverter that is electrically synchronized to the first Xantrex, but now I've reached the limit of my knowledge on that subject. Maybe somebody else can chime in.

[Porkchop]

Wiley=your experience with 2 phase is far more limited than you realize. True 2 phase is only found in a few places along the eastern coast of the USA anymore. Very old services in industrial settings and probably will not ever be replaced by the utility companies, that is if they are actually still there. They were 40 years ago when I was in EE school, but have not actually heard of them since.

What some people refer to as 2 phase is actually 120/240 volt single phase. They get confused when they see 2 hot legs and think of it as 2 phase when it's not. Call your local power company and ask for 2 phase power and see what they say. Then you have 120/208 volt 3 phase, Y system, 120/230 volt 3 phase, Delta Hi Leg system, and 277/480 volt 3 phase, Y system. These are the most common electrical voltages and phases available in the North American continent although some utilities still offer a few hybrids for certain applications, such as corner ground systems for irrigation and so forth. All of the above are 60 cycle. For many years most residential units were either 30 or 60 amp 120 volt. They started to change those out in the 60's and 70's as more air conditioning and electric ranges started to appear. That's when 120/240 volt single phase became popular. First was all 100 amp. them 200 amp and now it's not that uncommon to see 380, 400 amp services as houses have gotten larger.. My own personal residence has 3-200 amp panels in it. Then we have 4 out buildings each with 200 amp services. My, oh, my what would grandpa think?


Bill
SOME government military systems do have their own transformers that provide a different set of voltages, phases and cycles. Why? Because they are the government and it's their job to do weird and confusing things.
At one point early in my life while working at the Lincoln, NE Air Force base I was told it was to discourage employees from stealing power tools. That was around 1965. Don't know if it's true.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by Porkchop

Wiley=your experience with 2 phase is far more limited than you realize.

I've forgotten more about 2-phase and 3-phase power than most electricians will ever think about. My military training was a long time ago and, as you point out, the govt does things differently. The Navy does things even more differently because nothing on a ship is referenced to ground -- it is all isolated power. I've maintained iso-power systems for two hospitals.

Your main objection seems to be with the terminology I've used, especially the term "2-phase", but we should be able to agree on the underlying concept. To keep things simple, when an RV plugs into a 50A outlet, it gets 4 connections, 2 hot, 1 neutral, and 1 ground. Perhaps I was wrong to use the term "2-phase" to describe the 2 hot leads. When you measure across the 2 hot wires, you will see 240 volts, just like in my house. We really don't need to discuss how the transformer might be center-tapped because that is way beyond the scope of this discussion.

Let's see if we can agree on a few concepts.

Let's say you have a two single-phase inverters powered by a huge bank of 12-volt batteries . Let's tie the neutral outputs of the two inverters together so they are both referenced to ground. If you measure the voltage output from either inverter to neutral, you will see 120 volts. OK so far?

Now, let's measure from the hot lead of Inverter-1 to the hot lead of Inverter-2. What do you think you will see? It could read anywhere from zero to 240 volts, and it is guaranteed to vary randomly, depending on the difference in "phase" between the two inverters. You can't run an electric clothes dryer in this configuration.

My point is only that, to get 240 volts, our two inverters will need to be synchronized. That is what I was trying to explain to the average RV owner who doesn't want to get bogged down in terminology.

Where have I gotten it wrong?

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by cupajoe147

I have a 2022 Omni SV34 arriving at my dealership soon. After reading through the forum, I've learned that the 2000w Xantrex inverter is tied to 2 of 3 TVs, both refrigerator and one receptacle next to the bed. This seems rather limiting if doing a lot of boon docking. I will be beefing up the solar system to 650w and would like to operate the bedroom TV, the satellite receiver, apple TV box and some kitchen appliances from the inverter. Has anyone had success adding circuits or receptacles to the inverted system?

Yes it can be done. Three things to think about: Your inverter has a 15 amp transfer switch, so 15 amps wont handle what you want on shore power. The inverter you have will supply 16.7 amps which is not enough amperage to supply all the items you have listed. To get through a couple cloudy days you are going to need about 400 amp-h usable amperage from the batteries.

The easiest way to cure you problem is to get another inverter with a 30 amp transfer switch and wire it to a sup-panel and to hook-up all the circuits you want to power to the new sub panel.

My coach was wired with the inverter output into three 14 awg Romex wires. Three 15 amp circuit breakers in the power panel powered separate Romex for the GFCI and Romex duplex receptacles; plus a 14-2 SOOW cord for the slide duplex receptacles.

[cupajoe147]

I believe the Xantrex Freedom X 2K in my Omni has a 30 amp transfer switch.
I will have 4 batteries wired to store at least 800 amp/hrs.

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by cupajoe147

I believe the Xantrex Freedom X 2K in my Omni has a 30 amp transfer switch.
I will have 4 batteries wired to store at least 800 amp/hrs.

You are correct that the Freedom X and Xi have 30 amp transfer switches. If you have lead-acid batteries only 50% of the rated capacity is actually useful. When the voltage of a 12 volt LA battery reaches 12.2 volts standing, it is considered fully discharges. That is if it is discharged to a lower voltage it will shorten the batteries life.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by cupajoe147

I have a 2022 Omni SV34 arriving at my dealership soon. After reading through the forum, I've learned that the 2000w Xantrex inverter is tied to 2 of 3 TVs, both refrigerator and one receptacle next to the bed. This seems rather limiting if doing a lot of boon docking. I will be beefing up the solar system to 650w and would like to operate the bedroom TV, the satellite receiver, apple TV box and some kitchen appliances from the inverter. Has anyone had success adding circuits or receptacles to the inverted system?

I am adding the bedroom TV to my 2020 Magnitude later this spring when I have some time, which is no big deal.

Also, on y 2020 the outlet in the cabinet above the entry way and the outlet above the dinette that powers the DVD player are already on the Inverter. I pulled out the DVD and installed an Apple TV. I also have a camera that runs off the front TV outlet.

However, if you are talking about adding several other outlets, many of the other comments do apply. And denpedning what you plan to operate simultanesously will have an impact on whether the Freedom X 2000 can handle it and you are going to needa a much better batter configuration and not just beefed up solar.

You also have to remember the you have outlets in the kitchen bathroom and outside that are GFCI.

In my old Outlaw 29H I rewired the Inverter so I could power any outlet (I did not have the power to run the microwave or A/C but I could run about anything else.

I didn't want to buy a much bigger Inverter with a bigger transfer switch and rewire the entire coach. Instead I wired the Inverter the way my backup generator is wired for my house.

I bypassed the Inverter transfer switch. I then added an extra 20A breaker to my WFCO Power Center for output of the Inverter so it would backfeed the AC panel. That breaker would always be off until I wanted to use the Inverter.

When it was time to use the Inverter, I would shut off every breaker in the Power Center except for the circuits I wanted the Inverter to power (the main breaker and the Converter breaker always remained off under Inverter power). Then I would flip on the new 20A breaker and the Inverter would supply power to the breaker that I turned on.

When I was done using the Inverter, I turned the 20A Inverter breaker off and turned on all of the other breaker to return to shore power / generator service.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by cupajoe147

I will have 4 batteries wired to store at least 800 amp/hrs.

What kind of battery gives you 200ah ?

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

What kind of battery gives you 200ah ?

6 volt mostly. There are 200 AH 12 volt batteries but they are ginormous and HEAVY unless you want to talk lithium.

But of course four 6 volt batteries will not give you 800 AH at 12 VDC.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

What kind of battery gives you 200ah ?

I have four 6V Duracell's in my Magnitude. Here are some examples....


https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc115

https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc125

[cupajoe147]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

What kind of battery gives you 200ah ?

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but
I think there are several manufacturers of 6V 200ah AGM batteries.

[cupajoe147]

Originally Posted by Judge

I am adding the bedroom TV to my 2020 Magnitude later this spring when I have some time, which is no big deal.



Also, on y 2020 the outlet in the cabinet above the entry way and the outlet above the dinette that powers the DVD player are already on the Inverter. I pulled out the DVD and installed an Apple TV. I also have a camera that runs off the front TV outlet.



However, if you are talking about adding several other outlets, many of the other comments do apply. And denpedning what you plan to operate simultanesously will have an impact on whether the Freedom X 2000 can handle it and you are going to needa a much better batter configuration and not just beefed up solar.



You also have to remember the you have outlets in the kitchen bathroom and outside that are GFCI.



In my old Outlaw 29H I rewired the Inverter so I could power any outlet (I did not have the power to run the microwave or A/C but I could run about anything else.



I didn't want to buy a much bigger Inverter with a bigger transfer switch and rewire the entire coach. Instead I wired the Inverter the way my backup generator is wired for my house.



I bypassed the Inverter transfer switch. I then added an extra 20A breaker to my WFCO Power Center for output of the Inverter so it would backfeed the AC panel. That breaker would always be off until I wanted to use the Inverter.



When it was time to use the Inverter, I would shut off every breaker in the Power Center except for the circuits I wanted the Inverter to power (the main breaker and the Converter breaker always remained off under Inverter power). Then I would flip on the new 20A breaker and the Inverter would supply power to the breaker that I turned on.



When I was done using the Inverter, I turned the 20A Inverter breaker off and turned on all of the other breaker to return to shore power / generator service.

Thanks Judge! Really useful information, as always.
Do you plan to tie into the inverted receptacle behind the fridge for the bedroom TV?

[Porkchop]

Wiley=To answer your question, you got it wrong when you called it "2 phase" It's definitely not. Pure and simple. The rest of your clarifying statements are correct.

The finest foreman on a job I ever hired was a 30 year Navy vet. Retired as an E-8. He couldn't really pick up a bender and do anything with it, but he could explain and train young men better than anyone I ever met. As far as electrical theory went, he was untouchable. Had the best education the United States Government could offer for 30 years and took advantage of it. You could walk away from a job and feel confident with him being left in charge. This was on a nuke plant.

Great discussing things with you. Been retired for 15 years now and don't get to discuss much with people who know what they are talking about anymore. As I'm sure you have seen there is a lot of really bad advice on here from people who's brother in law 's barber saw someone wire a garage once and are now offering advice.


Bill

[Judge]

Originally Posted by cupajoe147

Thanks Judge! Really useful information, as always.
Do you plan to tie into the inverted receptacle behind the fridge for the bedroom TV?

Yes.... that is what I am going to do. I’m going to terminate the Romex going to the Bedroom TV outlet and then run some new Romex from the fridge outlet to the bedroom TV outlet.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by cupajoe147

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but
I think there are several manufacturers of 6V 200ah AGM batteries.

You are correct. But 800 AH at 6 volts is not 800 AH at 12 volts, which is what RV systems use.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

You are correct. But 800 AH at 6 volts is not 800 AH at 12 volts, which is what RV systems use.

Just to clarify this statement a little more... while what you say is correct, an RV wouldn't use 6 volts so to expand on your statement.....


Series: 6V (800AH) + 6V (800AH) = 12V (800AH)

Parallel: 12V (400AH) + 12V (400AH) = 12V (800AH)


Either of these scenarios provides the same 800AH as far as the RV is concerned.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by Porkchop

you got it wrong when you called it "2 phase" It's definitely not. Pure and simple. The rest of your clarifying statements are correct.

I'll have to be more careful with my terminology. I try to be precise but I didn't realize that "two phrase" had a specific definition. I was using it to refer to an electrical system where L1 and L2 where out of phase with each other.

What term would have been more correct?

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

6 volt mostly. There are 200 AH 12 volt batteries but they are ginormous and HEAVY unless you want to talk lithium.

But of course four 6 volt batteries will not give you 800 AH at 12 VDC.

I wasn't thinking about 6 volt batteries. I'm not sure how they became so popular. Even my 2017 Club Car doesn't use 6v batteries. I can't see any advantage of two 6 volt batteries compared to a single 12 volt battery.

Like all of us, my coach has limited space for batteries. I was somehow able, with the help of a welder, to expand the space under my entry stairs to hold four standard car batteries instead of two. That's it. No other place to fit another battery. So, the goal becomes how to get the most punch to fit into the space available. Right now they are AGM 100ah each. Someday, when I am rich and famous, they may become Lithium.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

I'll have to be more careful with my terminology. I try to be precise but I didn't realize that "two phrase" had a specific definition. I was using it to refer to an electrical system where L1 and L2 where out of phase with each other.

What term would have been more correct?

Yeah, imbedded terminology vs technical terminology can bite you on the Interwebs. Like you, I come from Naval Electical Distribution systems so I know what you meant: L1 is 180 degrees out of phase with L2 in reference to their common center tap; so that is a 2 phase supply with reference to the neutral/ground. But in reference to each other, it is a single phase source.

For those that get bent out of shape when calling it a two phase supply, what would they call two of the three legs of a Wye connected transformer? The two phases are 120 degrees out of phase with respect to the transformer's common center tap but it is still a single phase supply with respect to each other.

We could really throw a wrench in and start talking peak voltages instead of RMS voltages and Apparent Power, Reactive Power and Real Power.