Adding Balmar BlueTooth Gateway

[fourthgear]

Yes I have to look around for the Shunt. I don't have a Balmar wall display ,as far as I know , just the Voltage regulator . I have all the info from Thor , going to check the schematics again when I get a chance , thanks for all the info everyone , I'll keep looking .

I did see a bunch of large gage wire connections under the RV connected to Term. blocks , I have to inspect them , I did put a spray protectant on them when I first inspected the under belly of the RV , connectors/terminals & wires were already turning green. there is also a couple of loose Relays or what ever, under there which were already rusting .

[RonRM]

The Balmar display is the round thingy that shows SOC/SOH/AMPS/VOLTs...I don't have quick pic available, if you have one you can't miss it.

My setup is a bit different, but in many ways similar. Balmar UHG, Balmar 618 regulator, MasterVolt inverter...I don't have all the extra contact components (blue boxes...etc, don't know what those are in you setup).

Thor must have changed the design a dozen times a year, probably driven by supply chain and then again more than likely profit.

I think they originally did these B's with AMG batteries, then decided to try various lithium battery vendors. The stable component seems to be the Balmar Alternator (UGH), the 618 regulator and the SG200 display and shunt.

Driven off the dealer lot, my rig did not charge from the UHG. I had two choices, walk away, or write a check...I knew I could do a better job than the dealer guys, so I wrote the check.

I found Thor did not hook up the ignition sense wire to the regulator - so it never turned on. Once I got that working, I watched the regulator display and recorded the information. It cycles through parameters and some sensor readings (all in the 618 manual on Balmar's website). I was confused about a few readings, so I found that they offered a BT Gateway/App to see all the readings and tweak params.

Sorry...this gets involved from here, and this pertains specifically to my 2023-20L. I'd bet a 25cents that it is similar in other rigs and worth looking into.

From the BTGateway, I found that I wasn't seeing an alt temp sensor. Really important, as it is feedback to the regulator to 'regulate' the output of the UGH when it gets too hot. Digging around looking at the UGH, I found there was no temp sensor attached. I found the right one on Amazon and bought it. Stupid me, I didn't look to see if there were wiring connected to the pins on the regulator for the temp sensor...ahhhh...turns out there were wires but not connected. So, no temp showing up from the BTGateway, and wires not connected...and no temp device bolted to the UHG. Got way under the van, there it was...the Thor dudes/dudets didn't hook it up on either end...for whatever reason...who knows. Returned the Amazon sensor, hooked it up and works fine now.

From there on, I haven't had any issues with the setup...however there are conflicts. The one that concerns me the most, I live in WI, storing the batteries for the winter. Take them out, leave them in...I'm leaving them in, way too difficult to remove them. Called/Emailed Relion, asked them if -20 for a week would ruin them...they said - nope, you will be fine. First conflict, the battery manual says something like store at 20F...I'm placing my bets at this point that the email is correct and the literature is marketing speak.

Next conflict is battery temp sensing via the Balmar 618 regulator and the batteries. The LT100 batteries have heaters and internal temp sensing (both hi/low temp). In the cold, charge current is diverted to the heaters first, if the battery is too cold (less than 0C/32F). The battery warms up and the charging begins. This happens no matter if it the charge is coming from solar, UHG or shore power via the inverter charger. Forget solar in cold, if you only have the one 190W panel, not enough power to turn on the heaters, no heaters no charge.

UHG, well the 618 regulator is set to limit the output (manual says really low current, but doesnt say how much and it can't be adjusted) of UHG for charging if the temp sensor on the outside of the battery is below 0C/32F...ah, if the regulator won't turn on the UHG to charge when its cold, then the UGH won't deliver enough power to heat the batteries and the batteries won't charge unless they are warm...basically, the system will not charge (as setup) in cold weather. I've read several posts that antidotally confirm this, but I haven't tested it myself, and I think I can fix it in either case.

The inverter/charger is actually configured and designed (in my tiny brain) correctly, at least in my rig (2023 20L). It is not sensing battery temp, it just blasts a charge at the batteries in any temp, and lets the batteries decide to heat or charge. That to me is perfect, let the battery determine how it should operate, and it's the lifesaver for leaving the van out in the cold, plugged in all winter.

So, now for the real problem or possible problem...reading about the regulator/UHG/batteries...I found a paragraph in the UHG manual, it says that the UHG can actually damage itself or anything on the 12v system, if for some reason whatever it is delivering charging, is abruptly disconnected from it.

I guess the scenario is that if the UGH is delivering charge, and the BMS in the battery decides to go into disconnect mode, the UHG will not react quick enough and will dump excessive voltage to the 12Volt system in the van.

Supposedly, the cold weather scenario could cause this...I am not one that thinks that, but I've read others comments...and can understand how they could think that.

I guess I don't want to find out which is true by luck alone.

I think there are two things to do, Balmar sells (how convenient for them...) a device that prevents the UHG from dumping excessive voltage into the 12v system, it's around $70.00. It basically is a high power zener diode. The device protects one issue that can happen.

Second, with the BTGateway, I can change the low temp charge limit param (currently set at 0C/32F) to a lower temp.

Both of these, in my mind are solid solutions - actually documented in the Balmar 618 manual. With both of these in place, the UHG can kick in at a lower temp (measured on the outside of the battery), the battery will divert its charge to the heaters and start charging when it gets warm enough and if for whatever reason the BMS disconnects when being charged from the UHG...the $70.00 part should prevent damage...all theory, but plausible.

I'm stuck for now, van plugged in, batteries are charging fine, battery tender on the chassis battery (oh yeah...nothing other than the engine alternator or an external source will charge the chassis battery in my rig - they didn't put in one of those isolator thingies in this one).

A little bit of disappointment, in that I thought I bought an adventure vehicle, but seems I have an electrical engineering science project. Good for me, totally in my lane, but sadly for many others...it's constant trips to the dealership long waits for parts/appointments.

Several things yet to discover...is there anything connected to the negative posts on either of the batteries, other than the 2 cables that run back to the shunt, and do those cables run directly for the battery posts to the shunt. If they do and nothing else is connected...way better to disconnect those two cables at the shunt and complete disconnect the batteries from everything for storage. I'll put in a battery disco switch if that's the case.

Next, solar...it's nice, but really just eye candy...add more solar, in series so I don't have to re-wire or even swap out the charge controller (as long as I stay within it's limits).

Biggest project, rewire the rats nest and make room for more batteries. Most of the wiring messes are inside, but under the van lies a whole other world of mess.

Sorry for the dump...and I know it started with the BT Gateway, but that unearthed a ton of questions/issues/conflicts.

Love to hear what others have discovered, know, or wonder about with these systems.

Ron

[robertj1961]

Is there an "easy" way to disconnect the UHG during very cold weather to avoid the "cold weather scenario" and subsequent damage due to the abrupt disconnect? Also would want to make sure damage would not result to the UHG or other electronics from the disconnect during normal winter use if you chose to use it in that condition?
I am not as familiar with your system given I have the Onan generator instead of the UHG but sounds like you are able to keep it connected to shore power which should keep the batteries protected ( and charged ). Problem with setup right now on all of them is that you can not turn the charger off while connected to shore power.
That is my issue as well even at North Carolina temperatures as don't really want the batteries on "float" charge which is not the best situation for lithiums if I chose to leave it plugged in during the winter months.
I am just cycling the shore power whenever the charge gets down to 30% or so to avoid the float and using an external power cord for space heater etc. but that is a different topic.

[RonRM]

I don't know enough about the details of your setup...but I do know YES, you can disable the UHG (at least on my rig)...it came disabled, not by design, by crappy work.

I know that if the ignition sense wire is not connected, the regulator will not turn on. I don't know if that's an ideal condition if the engine is running, I just know the effect.

I'd call/email Balmar and ask them. It was easy to connect it in my unit, it is a brown wire going into a 'lever-nut' connector (so it would be that easy to disconnect it) - one side ignition circuit, the other side runs into the regulator.

I think you have a pretty big advantage with the generator. Since, it will probably behave exactly like shore power.

ron

[fourthgear]

I have looked in most places in the RV for the Balmar display & don't think I have one , where does it plug into the Regulator , would it be the " Smart link connections at the Regulator ?

What color is your Alternators ? I have a 280A Alternator & its Black in color , just curious .I see I have to do a lot more research , a better understanding the RV's systems sure helps if you have issues out on the road .

This is a great Thread , what helps me is I used to do Building automation systems in major Hospitals & Convention centers , DDC or DDC to Pneumatic , I'm no engineer , just a installer & trouble shooter with some programming experience , mostly related to HVAC/R equipment & systems , so I know enough to get into trouble, but sometimes not enough to get out of it . LOL.

[robertj1961]

The Onan generator has been about the only thing that has had "zero" issues on mine and agree it seems to act just like shore power.

I sent a technical request to Balmar describing how occasionally my display would show 0% SOC when I still had plenty of power left and this was their response:

A member of the CDI/Balmar support team has replied to your ticket # TT19841 , or

we have received your additional comment on the ticket.

The settings do appear correct. It may be an intermittent issue caused by the wiring to the shunt. If something were loose or grounded out it could cause this loss of data.

Sorry, but no help on the alternators at all because don't have that system.

[RonRM]

Pic's are the best...

Round thing - Balmar logo, that's the Balmar display
Blue rectangle thing - that's the regulator (only turns on when engine is running)
Lever-nut in my hand - that's the ignition sense connection (when it was disconnected, as it came from the factory)
The black thing with the gray plugs and large cables (brown, yellow, red: the red and yellow are the negative leads from the batteries) - that's the Balmar shunt.


The other pic, is the back of the display mounting (the back of the first pic)

My Balmar alternator (UHG-under hood generator) is black, it is located under the front bumper, passenger side.

The display connects to the shunt on one of those gray plugs, the other goes to the regulator. That leaves an empty socket (on the light blue thing - second pic), on the display. This is where the BT Gateway goes. Those plugs/cables make up the CAN bus where all this stuff talks together.


Quickly/basically...the UHG spins when the engine is running. The regulator applies an electrical current (field) to the spinning part of the alternator (armature), the coils that surround the armature translate the magnetic forces into electricity (actually AC), there is a rectifier that converts that to DC. There is a temp sensor on the case of the alternator. That sensor feeds back to the regulator, if the alternator gets too hot, it regulates the field to reduce the temp. The regulator has different states or processes, some are timed (do this for so long) and others are triggered by information it reads from the shunt (regulator sees this, so do that). The shunt is actually a resistor (along with some small circuitry for communications), the regulator reads the voltage (very small) across the shunt. From there, it can calculate the current going through the shunt. Depending on the readings from the shunt, the regulator goes into a particular state...float, absorb...etc. The details are in the 618 regulator manual on the Balmar website...it's a tough read, they do present those confusing issues I mentioned in my long post.

One way to get familiar, if you haven't already - setup an account on the Thor owners website. https://www.thormotorcoach.com/owners

Put in your VIN and it should have all the documents for your rig. Should include, schematics, manuals...for every system and component. It's a great place to get familiar with stuff.


A display with 0%...and batteries topped off...weird. I'd re-seat all the grey plugs on the display and shunt, could have loosened or were never seated properly. The other thing is look at the cables from the display to the shunt, the Thor genius's connected a lot of stuff with those crimp connectors, pull on them, one might actually be loose.

If you find something in there and have a question...post it here, somebody will know something.

Hope that is a bit of help

Ron

[fourthgear]

MY RV is different ,I looked at the 19P electrical diagrams/Schematics & it doesn't show a Shunt in the system & not believing it , I looked just about everywhere for the Display & or the Shunt . I have detailed photos & videos of when I tore everything apart to find a GFI Receptacle & I also looked at them to see if I missed something .

I looked under the RV & was surprised at how much was added , electrically , Negative cables mostly .Alternator output goes right to the main Buss for 12VDC Positive . Not sure if I'm happy or kinda scared . LOL

BMPro panel , MasterVolt Panel , Master Switch for coach 12vdc .& 30 Amp, solar controller at the bottom .

[RonRM]

Huh...wonder where they hid the shunt. No matter what, if you have a Balmar alternator (UHG as its called), then you certainly need a regulator. If you have a regulator, it needs data to work properly, typically it gets it from the Balmar Shunt...mystery!

This is a totally different setup than in my rig too.

Definitely go on Thor's site and put in your VIN, comb through the schematics for clues. I ended up just calling Thor...'Hey, where did you hide the shunt'...they offered 3 place, all were wrong...but they did answer politely.

ron

[fourthgear]

It's not that big of a component, it could be hiding any where , there are many Neg.(-) cables under the Van , would they put it under the RV ? Now I have to look when the weather clears .