Inverter "Locked up" Requiring Reset after loss of power - Page 2

robertj1961 · 12-18-2022, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Not dangerous? Tell that to the guy that shorted the wrench from the positive terminal to ground and it welded in place drawing maximum current from the battery bank until the batteries overheated and exploded.

That Maservolt technician needs to pull his head out of the lab and into the real world environment.

In all fairness to the tech, he did warn of that risk due to touching metal etc. and I knew the risk prior to loosening the cable but was referring more to the danger of electrical shock and we had that discussion also prior to disconnecting anything.
Feel free to criticize me for doing that if you like but it was certainly my decision and not his. I chose to assume that risk rather than wait for a month or more for a service center appointment.

RonRM · 12-18-2022, 03:47 AM

It's the current that kills you. AC messes up your heart rhythm, since it oscillates, on the other hand DC will stop your heart instantly...I designed the software for ECG machines early in my career, learned (forgot most of it) a bit about electricity and the body.

Good news is you have to get a lot of DC, since your body has a high impedance, which 'impedes' DC current...not so much with AC. We used to say, I'd rather get zapped with 60hz vs. 50hz...because you have more chances to let go as the current goes to zero.

I think in general it's more about shorting out the positive to ground. If removing the negative gets the job done, way less issues are possible. I would hope the BMS would detect the short and kick out, hopefully b4 the fuses blew (Thor has put them in ungodly places). If these were AGM or flooded with no BMS to kick out...that's dangerous.

I think it's looking like the disco is essential, solves so many issues.

Ron

robertj1961 · 12-18-2022, 04:05 AM

Good information and makes sense. Thanks Ron. Hopefully someone will come up with the best solution for the “disco” switch but am not going to do that without further guidance. Especially since all is working as it should (for now). Unfortunately the more I learn about Thor however it is easy to reach the conclusion that profit is their primary concern as this should have been addressed prior to this product reaching the customer.

RonRM · 12-18-2022, 02:20 PM

Yeah, why blaze the trail. How does that go...'I learn from others mistakes who take my advice".

I'll do a ton of research b4 I make any changes. I saw another guy on a FB group that just ripped the entire battery system out, and replaced it with Victron/BattleBorn, end to end. That's a bit extreme, and expense; not interested in either.

The todo is to find the right switch, I've seen posts of the cheap crap on Amazon melting. After all, there can be close to 200amps running through it for long periods of time.

ron

robertj1961 · 12-18-2022, 02:42 PM

"Yeah, why blaze the trail. How does that go...'I learn from others mistakes who take my advice".

Funny!
I have done my share of trail blazing but stick to topics I understand much better than electricity. I am also of the mindset "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and for now at least it is working.
It is obvious given today's environment you can either fix it yourself or wait a ridiculous amount of time to have a working product.
I will not be surprised at all if this happens again and not sure I will be quite as brave holding on to a "hot" positive cable.

RonRM · 12-18-2022, 08:51 PM

Yep, it's more like my other hobbies...just through another $1000 at it. Problem is, this is the only hobby I have with $100k+ price of entry.

I can get a kitchen pass from the wife, if i blow $1000 on something I only spent $200 to start...luckily, she likes the RV stuff as much as I do.

Watch a few of the Will Prowse videos(diy solar on YouTube), that dude rips right in batteries, tears them apart with screwdriver and oscillating tools...he still is alive and seems to have all of his fingers...you'll be fine.

ron

fourthgear · 12-19-2022, 02:37 PM

I'm not about to change out my LI system , but there is a learning curve anyone who DIY maintenance has to go through . I find it not to the MasterVolts favor , that they don't have a Tech. line for us DIY's . Though that may be by design to protect their relationship with Thor or other RV manufacturers .

I don't believe that TMC has the qualified personnel to actually install this equipment or just plain poor QC to miss all the issues with assembly & testing these complicated new systems that are being installed now a days . Yes when spending over 100K for something , one would think it would not come off the assembly line with some of the most mundane to critical components not installed correctly , seems when you start looking , ya seem to find something that should be so obvious , how could they miss it . I don't know about other manufacturers , just this one .It could be blamed on this or that , but it comes down to is QC & systems inspection .

This is just my opinion & I have many others LOL , but I think in the last couple of years this country has gone ( & still going ) through some strange times & that has not helped with Staff & personal working to assembly these RV's in record time because of demand & profits , which is why they are in Business , to make $$$ . Now how they make it or its worth may be in question , but it's still the bottom line , no matter how one likes it or not . Not sticking up for them , just stating facts .

robertj1961 · 12-19-2022, 10:14 PM

Was hoping this would be a little more trouble free given it was new but should have known better because every camper we have had has had issues. Agree the quality is not good as we have all seen and even worse than in times past.

I had another problem today with the inverter locking up. I hooked up to a 110 volt with the adapter and again no fan came on but the Mastervolt display said "Charging Bulk". Problem is it wasn't. Disconnected the shore power and the screen didn't change and confirmed on the Balmar that batteries were not charging.
At least I knew how to unlock/remove power this time without calling Mastervolt. Went through the same process of unscrewing the positive lead to the inverter slowly and had the screw almost all the way out but the lights on the inverter remained on this time. I am assuming there was still a good enough connection to keep it powered? I had to wiggle slightly the cable and it finally "sparked" very slightly and the lights on the inverter went out. I was extremely careful and went to the trouble to tape up all metal tools with electrical tape etc. to safeguard even further against touching metal etc. After the small discharge of power at the cable, the lights finally went out and after reinstalling again, back to working normally as confirmed with the inverter fan coming on and charging properly from the generator.

I am beginning to wonder if I may have a bad "transfer switch" with not enough power from the 110 volt to completely energize the inverter? Just guessing and I know there are many documented cases of GFCI 110 having issues but not always at a place to plug into 30 amp and hate to run the generator any time I need to charge but for now that is the plan. If problem occurs again on 30amp shore power or generator guess I will be waiting a while for a service center. I called a service center (RV ONE) nearest to me in Tampa to find out the first available appointment for service would be last week of January (more than a month from now)!

Totally agree with comment on how the "world has changed" and doesn't seem to be for the better. Very strange times indeed! I work in the Aviation industry and it is equally "backed up" with service issues both on the parts side and labor.

RonRM · 12-20-2022, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourthgear

I'm not about to change out my LI system , but there is a learning curve anyone who DIY maintenance has to go through . I find it not to the MasterVolts favor , that they don't have a Tech. line for us DIY's . Though that may be by design to protect their relationship with Thor or other RV manufacturers .

I don't believe that TMC has the qualified personnel to actually install this equipment or just plain poor QC to miss all the issues with assembly & testing these complicated new systems that are being installed now a days . Yes when spending over 100K for something , one would think it would not come off the assembly line with some of the most mundane to critical components not installed correctly , seems when you start looking , ya seem to find something that should be so obvious , how could they miss it . I don't know about other manufacturers , just this one .It could be blamed on this or that , but it comes down to is QC & systems inspection .

This is just my opinion & I have many others LOL , but I think in the last couple of years this country has gone ( & still going ) through some strange times & that has not helped with Staff & personal working to assembly these RV's in record time because of demand & profits , which is why they are in Business , to make $$$ . Now how they make it or its worth may be in question , but it's still the bottom line , no matter how one likes it or not . Not sticking up for them , just stating facts .

Amen...The RV industry is worth over $140 Billon...they have the $$ to fix it, but that might require a reasonable salary for the exec's and pay the employees what they are worth...never going to happen as long as we keep buying this stuff.

MLP · 12-20-2022, 12:57 AM

Just to let you all know, 36V AC or DC can kill you. Adding a 200 amp disconnect switch should not void a warranty. Look for one on Amazon, Ebay, or your favorite RV supply/repair shop.

RonRM · 12-20-2022, 01:26 AM

@Robertj1961...I remember seeing a post in a Facebook group...unfortunately it's gone, the poster got weird and deleted his entire account...everything went with him...btw, there is 'some' good info there too. 'Thor Sequence and Tellaro Owners and Wannabees'.

Anyway, he put in a switch and two wires to a connector on the MasterVolt. I think it allows you to 'reset' the inverter without taking stuff apart or removing wires. All I can recall is that the connector is on the bottom right - looking at one of the ends of the device.

I haven't had a chance to read the Mastervolt stuff, been fixated on the Balmar stuff. I might as well read it, I'm sure there is some stuff to learn about that device too.

You can do 2 things to figure out how your outlet is working...Get a volt meter and test it, or buy a Kill A Watt device. I use this thing https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Elec...66&sr=8-6&th=1 all the time. Let's you see how much power AC devices draw, voltage, frequency...all good stuff. I'd measure where you have the cord plugged in, and compare that to an AC outlet in the van - when plugged into shore power - should be the same, if not you could be onto something where the transfer switch is adding resistance and lowering the voltage to the inverter.

ron

MLP · 12-20-2022, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRM

@Robertj1961...I remember seeing a post in a Facebook group...unfortunately it's gone, the poster got weird and deleted his entire account...everything went with him...btw, there is 'some' good info there too. 'Thor Sequence and Tellaro Owners and Wannabees'.

Anyway, he put in a switch and two wires to a connector on the MasterVolt. I think it allows you to 'reset' the inverter without taking stuff apart or removing wires. All I can recall is that the connector is on the bottom right - looking at one of the ends of the device.

I haven't had a chance to read the Mastervolt stuff, been fixated on the Balmar stuff. I might as well read it, I'm sure there is some stuff to learn about that device too.

You can do 2 things to figure out how your outlet is working...Get a volt meter and test it, or buy a Kill A Watt device. I use this thing https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Elec...66&sr=8-6&th=1 all the time. Let's you see how much power AC devices draw, voltage, frequency...all good stuff. I'd measure where you have the cord plugged in, and compare that to an AC outlet in the van - when plugged into shore power - should be the same, if not you could be onto something where the transfer switch is adding resistance and lowering the voltage to the inverter.

ron

Remembering that wire and contacts have resistance and that the more current the more voltage is dropped across them. Contacts should have 10 to 25 milli ohms or less resistance. Most likely less. The wire gauge and run length will dictate the resistance of the length times two. The length plus the return length. Should not be much, but should have a lower voltage which is dependent on the current draw which causes a voltage drop across the contacts and length of wire.

Beau388 · 12-20-2022, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRM

Amen...The RV industry is worth over $140 Billon...they have the $$ to fix it, but that might require a reasonable salary for the exec's and pay the employees what they are worth...never going to happen as long as we keep buying this stuff.

Thor Industries is a holding company that has some of its divisions produce RV. Most of the profits are from towables (tag-a-longs and 5th wheels). The current stock price is about $77.00 with a high of $106 and a low $64 in the last 52 weeks. The stock price to corporate earnings ratio is current 3.86. The current market PE average is about 16. The stock dividend for the last quarter was $0.45 per share.

Based on that, I would the company is not making much money currently even if it does have 45 different operating locations in 6 different countries.

Bob Martin has been the CEO since 2012 compensation is 60% in stock and a salary of 3/4 of a million. In 2018 he cleared $15 mil. In 2021 his total compensation was $750,000. He lost approximately $32,000,000 in the value of the stock he owned so far this year. He is the second largest single owner of Thor Industries stock. The Thor Inds. co-founder and board chairman, Peter Orthwein, the the largest stock owner. Wade Thompson also still owns considerable common stock.

robertj1961 · 12-20-2022, 03:30 AM

All good information and thanks to those who have replied.

I have had the "lockup" problem now on two separate 110 volt (both GFCI protected) outlets at two different residences so am inclined to believe the setup just doesn't play well with the GFCI or I have a transfer switch or inverter problem. On the first "lockup" the GFCI tripped but the most recent case neither the power source breaker or GFCI tripped but the inverter still locked up requiring the power to be removed before it would work as it should. I have had a Progressive 30 amp surge protector attached in both cases with the normal 30 amp to 15 amp adapter.

Appreciate the information from Facebook because I don't subscribe to any of that and this is about as close as I get to any "social media". I have heard there is quite a bit of information (Tellaro etc.) there but just don't use any of that or have an account and probably never will.

Will for now just avoid plugging into a 110 outlet and just use the Onan generator for charging until I get back home where I can plug into a 50 amp source (with adapter). Am planning to add a 200 amp disconnect switch when I figure out the best place and way to do it. Will definitely have to figure out a way to access the batteries prior to doing that however which is unfortunately somewhat challenging the way this was set up from the factory.

If it happens again will probably just wait the month and take it to a service center while not working. If I keep "fixing it", and take it in with the intermittent problem, they will probably just say "all is fine" or "could not duplicate problem". If it sounds like I don't have a lot of confidence in dealers, you are right.

fourthgear · 12-20-2022, 04:32 AM

I had a 50/50 chance of getting SP when plugged in before the ATS replacement . The Inverter was switching to SP , but there was none in the Coach & since the Inverter switched over internally , there was no Battery inverted 120vac . I could hear the ATS switch over , but it could be bad contacts in the ATS or weak pull in Coil , what ever it was with the other ATS , replacing it worked & I had one incident where it locked up & cycling the 30 amp SP Breaker in my house panel is all it took to get it to work , with doing nothing at the RV . Thor even said they have had issues with the ATS .

I would also say that , I have no idea if they ( GRV ) did anything else to the system that wasn't written on the repair ticket , kinda doubt it .

I would say let it go the next time & call to make an appointment to repair or most likely diagnose the issue , they should have a direct dealer line to TMC .

robertj1961 · 12-20-2022, 04:44 AM

Sounds like good advice.
Would your mastervolt display "lock up" and say charging when this happened and would your batteries charge? My display locks up and have tried removing the A/C as you did and then reapplied however but unfortunately would not reset anything until battery power completely removed. I am also kind of leaning to the ATS at this point. If not that then probably the inverter itself.

fourthgear · 12-20-2022, 05:01 AM

Yes the displayed indicator lights were showing the Inverter had 120vac input , charging , & absorption for battery mode , indicator lights were lit . I'm lucky , I have the yellow BSR , all I had to do was switch the BSR off & wait for the indicator lights to go out , but still had a 50/50 chance of it actually switching & some times had to do it over & over again till it switched over . Sometimes it would switch over, then after a bit of time ( could be a min. of hours , I would lose 120vac in the coach , with the Inverter still showing I had 120vac" in .

robertj1961 · 12-26-2022, 02:29 PM

What just occurred to me in trying to solve this problem is: what happens to the battery charger function of the Mastervolt inverter/display when the Relion LT100 batteries are heating up prior to charging? The data sheet of the batteries shows that the BMS transfers power from the charger to heat the batteries for up to 1 hour at 10 amps prior to charging if temperatures are less than 41 degrees F. The problems I have had with the display showing "bulk charging" with no charging taking place hopefully could be the result of the BMS not allowing charging yet due to temperature?
I am hoping the solution to this could be that simple but wondering if anyone else has noticed the display on the Mastervolt Combi when hooking up to shore power in freezing conditions? Could it be normal for the display to show "bulk charging" when no charging is taking place (until the batteries reach proper temperature) as indicated on the Balmar? I have sent a technical request to Relion on this so hopefully that may reveal an answer.

fourthgear · 12-26-2022, 06:38 PM

I look at my display daily & this morning it was reading "Bulk" charging mode & 35 deg.. It was the same yesterday at 30 deg. I have no idea if the LI batteries are actually taking a charge or not , Going to take a Meter with tomorrow's inspection & I'm always plugged into SP here at my house & have not driven the RV for three days .

My LI Batt. are always @ 100% .

I found I have an Interface & a patch cord to plug into a PC for the MasterVolt system & MV has a downloadable program to install on a PC ( I think windows OS only ? ) I have to look into this much further after the new year .

robertj1961 · 12-26-2022, 09:19 PM

I believe you have a upgraded Mastervolt display that is different from mine. If I am not mistaken it looks like your display is a "EasyView 5" and I have the "SmartRemote" so our information displayed may be different. I was able to tell that looking at the pictures you posted on another thread.

Since you are always plugged in and your batteries are at 100%, would expect your charger is in "float mode" and cycles on only if your batteries need charging. In that case, your batteries should stay at the proper temperature using the computer software installed in the batteries (BMS).
I have only been plugging my van in when the batteries get down to 30% or so SOC and am in Florida now where freezing is not "usually" a problem.

Thanks for the information however.

The software you are referring to for adjustment of the charging/inverter parameters is called "MasterAdjust" according to the manual and requires a windows laptop as you stated. I believe you can download that from the Mastervolt website but have not used that so don't really know much about it.
More information on this is described in the Mastervolt Combi Manual that is available at the Mastervolt website if you should decide to do that.

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