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Old 02-13-2023, 09:17 PM   #1
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Model: Tellaro 20K
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THOR #28198
More charging issues

My 22 Tellaro K is currently in the shop for several repairs. One of the biggest is one they can't seem to replicate (mostly because they won't listen to my explanation of the problem). Maybe the experts here on the forum will have some insight.

First issue...when connected to shore power, the batteries charge to 100% correctly. The SOC will remain at 100% for about 24 hours and then the SOC begins to drop. The rate of discharge appears to be consistent with what I see when boon docking. The Mastervolt monitor remains on Float at the SOC continues to decline. If I unplug from shore power and plug back it, it will charge the batteries back to 100% and the cycle repeats.

Second issue...when connected to shore power, the Mastervolt charger will restart itself randomly. It's as if someone toggled the breaker on the power pole really quick. I can't predict when it will happen but it seems to becoming more frequent. It happened 5 times the last evening I was connected to shore power.

The dealer claims they can't find anything wrong with the charging system except for a bad Balmar alternator.

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Old 02-13-2023, 09:52 PM   #2
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THOR #26179
Can they access the MasterVolt system ? ,check my Thread out https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f4...ace-33154.html & I'm no where near inspecting the systems programing on our 2022 19P Sanctuary Seems not many do or know that they do, if they do . It may be a programing issue , the LI battery system or BMS may have issues , bad Inverter ?

I would also put the ATS on the list , ours would lose SP or just out right just not switch over & not charge , even though the Inverter did switch over to SP , the ATS was replaced last year & its been working great .
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Old 02-13-2023, 10:03 PM   #3
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Intermittent "on/off" things with electricity often points to loose or faulty wiring. I'd start examining the end of the shore power cord where it plugs to the pedestal. Then I'd trace backward into the coach. Check every single wiring point going into the converter/charger/transfer switch... or whatever is wired in. In the process, check to see if all necessary components are there, AND wired correctly. Follow this procedure meticulously ALL THE WAY to where wiring goes into the power center (fuse/breaker box)... then check for loose wires there.

Until this is done, you'll never know if components are good or bad - and you're just firing a parts cannon at the problem.
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Old 02-13-2023, 11:12 PM   #4
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THOR #26907
It sounds to me like there is the possibility your Relion Batteries BMS is cutting power to the batteries during the charging cycle. I have had similar problems but not identical. I would also confirm you have the following TSB completed:

https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f4...tsb-33344.html

Very simple to check but might make sure your dealer is aware while it is there.
It is a timing module but it has been known to cause problems with the battery BMS system (battery shut down). If your batteries are shut down by the computer they will not charge. I have had the Mastervolt display "charging" when it was not when this has happened.

I have had my charge process interrupted several times for unknown reasons but at this point suspect the Relion BMS computer could be causing this.
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Old 02-15-2023, 09:28 PM   #5
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Unfortunately Thor didn't do anyone any favors when it comes to troubleshooting, since we don't have ways to isolate components to figure out which one works and which one failed.

But you did offer up some good clues...

As you describe it, 'Balmar alternator is bad'...how did it fail? I guess it could be in a failure mode where it's draining the batteries faster than the Combi could charge...that would be easy to find...just start touching things(infrared thermometer would save your skin)...something would be hot. If it did a field dump as it died (basically >12VDC dump at high current onto the 12V system)...that could fry any number of components - combi, BMS...etc.

The fact that the Combi resets and the batteries drop down - even while plugged in (as I read the post)...seems there's only the combi and the batteries involved.

So, one would think either...or both

Combi is FooBar or as mentioned - programmed incorrectly
Battery BMS (one or both) is shot

Now it's entirely possible for the stupid timer thing to drain the batteries, I wouldn't think it could do that when it's plugged in - the Combi would sense low volts and kick into it's charging cycle and bring the batteries back up.

I don't think there can be any definitive conclusions without digging into voltages and programming.

Things to note:

Balmar will field dump if it's load is disconnected while charging - there is a device from Balmar that can protect from this. This is vey rare if you are not in a place below battery low temp cut-off. Also, if your Balmar fried - I'd check the parameter setup in the Balmar regulator and make sure the temp sensor is working. Mine wasn't even connected on delivery.

Combi only senses voltages - it uses it's programming to determine when and where to enter it's charge cycles.

Combi has status LEDs - low/high battery, marginal use but still better than nothing

Combi has an interface (windows pc and their software) - Programming/status/errors can be viewed with the app. I'd start here.

Relion's - semi brain dead batteries...BMS cuts out at low temp, hi temp and over current (they don't deliver output when heating - that's just lovely) - no bluetooth interface to tell anything about them. You can measure the voltage, and look at their well designed logos...but that's it.

Curious what the dealer finds

Ron
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Old 02-27-2023, 08:36 PM   #6
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THOR #28198
Thanks for all the info, so far.

By way of an update, the dealer has been unable to replicate and now wants to charge me upwards of $600 just for trying. I haven't figure out my next steps yet.
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Old 03-01-2023, 02:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRM View Post
...

As you describe it, 'Balmar alternator is bad'...how did it fail? I guess it could be in a failure mode where it's draining the batteries faster than the Combi could charge...
Are you saying the alternator can have some impact on charging even when the engine is off? As for how it failed, I have no idea. I simply noticed that the batteries were not being charged when the engine was running. The dealer determined the alternator needed to be replaced. Thankfully the warrantee covered all of that.

Every theory I can come up with dies in the face of facts. haha. Why does it fully charge when first plugged into shore but doesn't maintain the charge? As soon as I disconnect and reconnect it will charge back to 100%. It's also a new issue so that would seem to rule out an incorrect setting, right?

The dealer called yesterday, said I could come pick up the van. Their resolution is that there is nothing wrong with it and I owe $1300 for their effort. The worst service experience of my life.
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Old 03-02-2023, 04:39 PM   #8
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THOR #26907
I am not sure if you have a 200ah, 400 ah or 800 ah battery setup but there are a couple of things you probably need to confirm. Hopefully your dealer should do this but I frankly don't trust them and these settings are pretty easy to verify for yourself.

Make sure your Balmar battery monitor (assuming you have that) is setup correctly in the settings of that device. There is a way in the menu of that device to check that by holding down the single button. By set up correctly I mean the device should reflect the battery power you have (200,400 or 800a/h batteries)and that the chemistry is set for Relion Lipo etc. The easiest way to check/change these settings is with a Balmar Bluetooth device that you can buy on Amazon for $59. It is simple install (plug and play) and just plugs in to the back of the Balmar display. Search Amazon for Balmar SG2 Bluetooth gateway and you will find. This device also gives you the ability to monitor your battery SOC etc from an "App" without having to look at the Balmar display itself. I just confirmed it is available there.

Confirm the "dip switches" on the Mastervolt Combi charger/inverter are set correctly for your battery configuration. These switches are located on the side of the Mastervolt Combi and are visible after removing the cover by removing the very small phillips head screws. The proper setting of these switches is important and can be found in other threads on this forum.

It is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS for you dealer to try and charge that for telling you nothing is wrong as I am sure you already know but given today's work environment am not surprised.

Good luck!
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Old 03-03-2023, 01:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JourneyingTurtle View Post
Are you saying the alternator can have some impact on charging even when the engine is off? As for how it failed, I have no idea. I simply noticed that the batteries were not being charged when the engine was running. The dealer determined the alternator needed to be replaced. Thankfully the warrantee covered all of that.
Yes, there are a set of components (diodes), they block current flow in one direction. They sometimes blow in a 'short' condition, in other words, they can pass current in both directions...so basically in that failure mode, the charger would be dumping charge on the batteries until they reach a voltage, then it stops and the batteries could bleed off though the shorted components. Pure possibilities...easy to test with a simple volt/ohm meter. The general failure is they blow 'open', in other words, they don't pass current in either direction...think of it as you turned off a switch. Again - easy test, same equipment.

I guess more importantly, is the Balmar regulator setup correct. The wrong setup can blow up the alternator. I'd have the dealer confirm the setups. These can be read from the regulator display or via the BlueTooth Module and app. Mine look like this - these were validated by Balmar...I was worried when mine didn't work and had them checked...

Program, UFP-CFP
Charging Station, Fixed Bulk
Regulator Temp, 30 � C
Calculated Tar. Voltage, 14.3
Regulator Soft Rev, 5.00
MAX Field %, 100
Regulator Hours, 5.1
Field Output %, 34
Small Engine Mode, 0
Battery Temp #1, 24 � C
Alternator Temp #1, 28 � C
Battery Temp #2, Open
SLP, 0.0
Battery Type, UFP-CFP
SmartLink Device ID, 129
Sensor Enforcement,
Long/Short Display, 0
Alternator Failure Advisory, 1
Start Delay, 1
High Voltage Limit, 14.5
Compensation Limit, 14.4
Bulk Voltage, 14.3
Bulk Time, 0.1
Absorb Voltage, 14.2
Absorb Time, 0.2
Float Voltage, 13.5
Float Time, 18
Low Voltage Limit, 12.7
Field Threshold Bulk to Abs, 65
Field Threshold Float to Abs, 65
Alternator Temp Threshold, 110
Max Battery Temp, 44
Min Battery Temp, 0
Battery #1 temp. sensor open or not found, E11
Battery #2 temp. sensor open or not found, E13
Alternator #1 temp. sensor open or not found, E15
FUP, undefined
socsec, F7F-30-06E3


Quote:
Originally Posted by JourneyingTurtle View Post
Every theory I can come up with dies in the face of facts. haha. Why does it fully charge when first plugged into shore but doesn't maintain the charge? As soon as I disconnect and reconnect it will charge back to 100%. It's also a new issue so that would seem to rule out an incorrect setting, right?
Hmm...It could be settings...since, the system works off of voltage thresholds, they could be set 'low'. These batteries can charge close to 14.5volts...might be .6 close enough...if the settings are wrong, say on the Balmar display - SOC would be off. When it says 100% SOC - what does the voltage on the display say? That is a direct reading - no configuration - volts are volts. The SOC is actually a guess, based on the capacity and chemistry setting mentioned above - anything above 13.5 is 100% even if the settings are correct. The settings on the Mastervolt are voltage levels where the charger 'more or less - turns on/off (little more sophisticated that that but that's the idea)'...there are other settings for the amount of time at various levels. If these are incorrect, there is are another set of possibilities...they are all in the wind, since three things need to happen to even begin to understand the problem, hook up a PC with the Mastervolt software and check the settings, measure the output of the charger, and measure the voltage at each battery.

I can think of a few things I'd be looking at...the number 1 would be to see if one of the batteries output went to 0, meaning that batteries BMS kicked out for some reason - could be bad, could be the charger is set wrong. Again, all in the wind without actually measuring stuff as it's happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JourneyingTurtle View Post
The dealer called yesterday, said I could come pick up the van. Their resolution is that there is nothing wrong with it and I owe $1300 for their effort. The worst service experience of my life.
I hope when you get it back, everything is working - as stated by the dealer. That might give you leverage at Thor - since they replaced the alternator under warrantee, and if all is well - then that's that...too bad they took and extra $1300 in labor to find it...that's not your fault, it seems that's between them and Thor.

If they can't support Thor's products...you should not have to pay for that. I'd be on the phone with Thor pleading my case before I picked it up. Then I'd go down to the dealer, plug it in and see if it works...with Thor on the phone. If it works, then the dealer can work it out with Thor how to get paid - they fixed it but took way too long to figure it out. If it doesn't, work...well, now everyone's involved...and that's when I'd start becoming less than a nice guy.

I think I'm going to carefully read the Thor warrantee - I'm going to be looking to see if it states that I need to pay for hours beyond normal warrantee rates for a "warrantee' repair.

Good luck. Really sucks you are in this position.
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Old 03-03-2023, 12:14 PM   #10
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THOR #26179
It's under warranty , doesn't matter how long it took or if they found the issue . I would look also at where you are plugging in to SP also for any issues , but if they fixed it , better test it while it's there . As has been said, the bad Alternator or UHG could cause all kinds of issues to other components , all components in the charging system should have been tested .

Call Thor .
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Old 03-05-2023, 03:58 PM   #11
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Let me ask a newbie question.

When the Combimaster monitor says Charging/Float, it believes the batteries to be full or nearly so?

Right now, the Combimaster shows 13.6 volts and 2 amps. The Balmar monitor read 87% SOC. I opened the Balmar bluetooth app and hit save on the battery chemistry setting. That cause the Balmar display to "reset/restart" and it now reads 32% SOC. I've been connected to 30amp shore for more than 24 hours.

I'm not sure which of the two monitors to trust but I'm beginning to doubt the Balmar.
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Old 03-05-2023, 05:47 PM   #12
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Correct - float means they got to around 13.5V or so, if all the Combi settings are correct - seems that way. Your at 13.6, perfect.

The Balmar Alternator will charge the batteries to around 14.5ish...

If you look at the voltage curve of a lithium battery, they are pretty much flat at the top. So, somewhere between 13.5 and 14.5ish - they are near or at the top.

Check the settings on the Balmar. From what you describe, it's not setup correctly.

The Balmar Volts display should agree with the Combi, even if its other params that calculate SOC, are wrong.

Here is a link to the display manual, easy to set up. It's a push/hold the button dance to get through the menus.

https://balmar.net/wp-content/upload...S-SG2-0200.pdf

Last thing to check, which I would do no matter...make sure all the nuts are tight on the shunt or anything you can 'SAFELY' get a wrench on. Anything with a B+ (probably red) cable - be careful not to touch anything metal when tightening.

Ron
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Old 03-05-2023, 09:54 PM   #13
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One last thing to check:

On the battery chemistry (Balmar), make sure you select the Relion LiFEPo4 setting that is toward the bottom of the screen. Initially, I selected LiFEPo4 setting that was closer to the top of the selection options.

I am not sure what the difference is but when I changed to the Relion setting have not had any problems.
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Old 03-12-2023, 04:35 PM   #14
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I seem to be no closer to a solution or even an understanding of where the problem might be.

I've been connected to 30amp shore for 3 days. The Balmar SOC is 15% this morning and shows a voltage of 13.2. The BMPro and the solar controller show the same voltage. Meanwhile, the CombiMaster reads 13.5 volts but has been jumping around between 13.2 and 14 volts.

Again, I have no idea which device to believe and have no idea of the exact or even approximate SOC right now.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a PC to connect to the CombiMaster, but I am attaching a screenshot of the smartshunt settings from the Bluetooth app. Does anything look off there?
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Old 03-12-2023, 05:56 PM   #15
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THOR #26907
I can confirm your settings on the Balmar are correct.

Are you sure the “dip switches”on th Mastervolt combi are all in the correct positions?
There is another thread here somewhere with pictures.

Has the TSB been completed or checked for the microwave/air conditioner circuit? It has been reported to interfere with the Relion BMS.
Again another thread on this forum with pictures.

After confirming all of this would think dealer would be next step.
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Old 03-12-2023, 07:32 PM   #16
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Hmmm...plugged in for 3days and still only at 13.2Volts and SOC 15%, makes zero sense.

Look at this chart (first column), at 13.2V that's a minimum of 70% SOC.

Do you have a VOMeter (volt meter), so you can confirm the voltage readings from batteries.

Ideally, measured directly across the battery B+/B-, unplugged and the inverter off. Next best place is on the back of the disconnect switch (B+ lives there), to any metal on the chassis, or at the inverter.

If the voltage is close to 13.2 or more, I'd bet that the display or shunt is wacky and since the SOC is way off.

If it's the shunt, that could cause other issues, since that's where the regulator gets information on how to control the UHG(second alternator). Didn't you say, your UHG went bad and had to be replaced...

The different voltages from the devices is due to a number of things, including loss through the cabling. As long as it's close, that's all you can expect.

Ron
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Old 03-12-2023, 08:37 PM   #17
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THOR #28198
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRM View Post
Hmmm...plugged in for 3days and still only at 13.2Volts and SOC 15%, makes zero sense.
I should clarify that the SOC was 100% when I plugged in as I had just driven 4 hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRM View Post
Do you have a VOMeter (volt meter), so you can confirm the voltage readings from batteries.
I did check that several days ago. I checked at the Mastervolt unit, unplugged and the inverter off. I don't remember the exact voltage but it was around 13.4 and the SOC was in the lower 70s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRM View Post
If it's the shunt, that could cause other issues, since that's where the regulator gets information on how to control the UHG(second alternator). Didn't you say, your UHG went bad and had to be replaced...
Yes. The UHG was replaced and I never got an answer as to what was wrong with it.

Today, I unplugged and ran a few errands. The Balmar read +80 amp with the engine idling. SOC was 38% when I returned to the campground. I plugged in to shore and the Balmar read +10amps for a couple of minutes before going down as it switched from absorption to float.

I'm inclined to think there's an issue with the Balmar side of things but am at a loss as to how to test. Having already wasted $600 at a dealer, I'm a bit gun shy.
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Old 03-13-2023, 05:05 PM   #18
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I'll post one more finding here and then I'll shut up and try to find a dealer.

The Mastervolt showed 13.6 volts. When I unplugged, the volts dropped to 12.6. Meanwhile, the Balmar display say 41% SOC and 13.2 volts.

I guess I really don't know the state of the batteries.
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Old 03-14-2023, 03:00 AM   #19
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It's a puzzle for sure...

If you can't find a decent RV dealer that understands this stuff, maybe a marine dealer that knows the Balmar stuff inside and out.

Other option, call Balmar and or Mastervolt, if you get the right people they will trouble shoot with you.

I'm with you, I'm thinking Balmar...evidence - UHG blew up, display doesn't make sense. There are only 3 other components, other than the UHG...display, shunt, regulator. Did you compare the params I posted. Those are the factory config for a 200ah battery setup.

Problem's like this are hard to figure out, swapping parts would help.

Without parts, a couple of other things you could try, swap the plugs on the shunt - long shot, look for anything loose - pull on any of the butt splices. Pull/Replace the fuse to the shunt (I think its either 5 or 2 amp..dont remember), it comes off the back of the master 12v disconnect switch. Check the plug on the display, I'd reseat the plug.

Good luck

Ron
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Old 03-14-2023, 09:24 AM   #20
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I would also not rule out issues with the ATS , as I posted previously .
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