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Old 02-20-2023, 03:01 PM   #21
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THOR #27874
Yep, take a deep breath, and open the covers slowly - prepare yourself for a WTF moment...it's a mess. The plumbing is on par with the wiring. 10-15minutes more per area in manufacturing and this would be 100% better...

The underside is no better. Nothing water proofed, wagos exposed to elements just tapped to prevent who knows what. Fuses just dangling.

Stuff is pinched, stretched, twisted, too long, too short, not secured...nothing labeled. It amazes, but no longer surprises me...even the two neg battery cables are different type of wire - one is very flexible and the other is really stiff.

I loved the tie wrap loop, with a little extra tape holding the extra green romex in place, precious.

Soon as it gets warm enough, it all gets ripped out and re-done from scratch.

I did find the common ground post, it's buried under the mess in the pics. All the white wires terminate on one stud. That's good to know where that is.

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Old 02-20-2023, 04:39 PM   #22
MCP
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Model: Tellaro 20k
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THOR #27962
I'll add to the favorite wiring photos. Here are two of mine. These are from my Where's Waldo search for the blue Balmar regulator. The photos are AFTER I pulled the regulator out from under the wiring and plumbing pile. I ended up pulling it out further and securing it to framing.

BTW, the link to the WonVon shunt goes to a 100 amp version with a 600 amp option. I suspect they may be temporarily out of the 400 or one would have to dig further. Just so no one inadvertently orders the 100 for their 200+ amp system. (Sounds like something I would mistakenly do!)

Mike

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Old 02-20-2023, 09:55 PM   #23
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THOR #28919
That must take effort to get it that messy! Embarrassing workmanship at best.
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Old 02-20-2023, 09:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRM View Post
Yep, take a deep breath, and open the covers slowly - prepare yourself for a WTF moment...it's a mess. The plumbing is on par with the wiring. 10-15minutes more per area in manufacturing and this would be 100% better...

The underside is no better. Nothing water proofed, wagos exposed to elements just tapped to prevent who knows what. Fuses just dangling.

Stuff is pinched, stretched, twisted, too long, too short, not secured...nothing labeled. It amazes, but no longer surprises me...even the two neg battery cables are different type of wire - one is very flexible and the other is really stiff.

I loved the tie wrap loop, with a little extra tape holding the extra green romex in place, precious.

Soon as it gets warm enough, it all gets ripped out and re-done from scratch.

I did find the common ground post, it's buried under the mess in the pics. All the white wires terminate on one stud. That's good to know where that is.

I might just make it quick and use liquid electrical tape on the underside.
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Old 02-20-2023, 11:38 PM   #25
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I asked in one of these threads, what connectors are best...I guy who did a lot with boats recommended the heat-shrink crimp connectors with dielectric grease.

I was planning on moving all the fuses to a central box, marine grade, as close to the pos terminals on the batteries. I found 2 under the rig, and a couple under the driver floor panel near the chassis battery.

Clean up all the bad crimps, wires...etc. Then hit it all with that red electric spray stuff for outdoor.

I like the liquid tape idea, good call. that would finish the job. Certainly on the crimp connectors.

It's like a drunk 3yr old assembled it. I'll bet once you take a look, you will see what I mean.

Ron
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Old 02-21-2023, 11:37 PM   #26
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THOR #28919
Tellaro 2023/20L 200Ah Relion/Balmar UHG - rewiring etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRM View Post
I asked in one of these threads, what connectors are best...I guy who did a lot with boats recommended the heat-shrink crimp connectors with dielectric grease.

I was planning on moving all the fuses to a central box, marine grade, as close to the pos terminals on the batteries. I found 2 under the rig, and a couple under the driver floor panel near the chassis battery.

Clean up all the bad crimps, wires...etc. Then hit it all with that red electric spray stuff for outdoor.

I like the liquid tape idea, good call. that would finish the job. Certainly on the crimp connectors.

It's like a drunk 3yr old assembled it. I'll bet once you take a look, you will see what I mean.

Ron

If u want to protect even more use rubber electrical splice tape first. Finish with liquid electrical tape.
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Old 02-22-2023, 03:54 PM   #27
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What a mess! I wonder how much money they're losing due to the waste of cable? I work in manufacturing, many of us controls/electrical engineering types take pride in our cable management, I would not be able to walk away from a mess like that.
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Old 02-22-2023, 08:55 PM   #28
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The entire process needs major improvement in my opinion. And the problem is not limited to entry-level lower-cost motorhomes, as can be seen from these photos of a Mercedes Sprinter Class C. This kind of build is bad enough when limited to the RV house, but when it spreads to Class A chassis build which can affect reliability (or lack thereof), it becomes more of a deal breaker for those who look closely.

I suppose much of this falls under out-of-sight out-of-mind since many buyers donít expose hidden wiring or plumbing before buying, if ever. Not much labeling for future troubleshooting either.
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Old 02-22-2023, 10:15 PM   #29
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@MCP...nice catch...The 400's go pretty fast, I only had to wait a week or so before they were available again.

@Sparks701
That's an even better idea.
I don't want to have to worry about every puddle or beach I drive on, whether or not it will cause a connector to corrode and fail some day. I'd like it to be as water tight as a duck's butt.

@Aiserock
Yep, provided they used actual copper...that would add up. It probably matches the burdened labor rate to do it right the first time.

As I typed that...I am going to make sure they used 100% copper and not that cheap copper clad aluminum. I did find it strange that one negative battery cable was way stiffer than the other.

@Chance
My Fleetwood Class-A is a bit untidy (built in 2014), but not at all as unsightly messy like these things are.

I think there is a bit of out of sight...but mostly - safety 3rd...profits first. I'll bet the assemblers are on piece work comp, with unrealistic goals. So, the only way to pay the grocery bill is to whip though the wiring and move on to the next rig.

There is zero QA, well, actually we are the QA just before delivery. It's management and exec's that should be called to task.

One would think that with a board of director cast like they have (https://ir.thorindustries.com/corpor...s/default.aspx) one of these people would have questioned the manufacturing practices when they looked at the warrantee costs. Guess nobody cares.

rm
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Old 03-20-2023, 08:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRM View Post
Cool, that's good to know. I can't wait for it to be warm enough to work on this thing...started collecting parts, next going to find board to layout the components and have it ready to install. I'll do pics when I get that far.

The temp sensor doesn't carry any current - its just a thermistor glued/heat shrunk to a lug (careful not to bend it). It has it's own 2 wires (not connected to the battery or lug) running back to the regulator. it has it's own issues, but it won't be an issue disconnecting the battery negatives.

Just an aside, I read a FB post about the temp sensor. They guy removed it by disconnecting pin 7/8 on the regulator. He also disco'ed the solar, by pulling the fuse. That allows the UHG to run the heaters and then charge the batteries in weather less than 0F, as the regulator no longer has a low temp cut-off feedback.

Otherwise, the temp sensor being at or below 0F, will feed back a signal to the regulator to not deliver any charge (or a very very small amount), subsequently no heater and with no heat the batteries will not accept a charge until heated.

It's additional protection for systems not having low temp sensors inside the batteries. But, in our case, it prevents the UHG from charging in cold weather. Rather than disconnect it (since it also senses high temp), I'm going to change the regulator parameter for low temp cut-off from 0f to -4F, that should work better for me.

So, 1/2 are the power to the regulator, makes perfect sense that they home-run wired it to the battery, since the Thor engineers are stupid. If I got bashed as much as they do, I think I'd work on straightening out my game or find a different career.

The regulator is usually sitting right next to the shunt...they could have just put the negative/ground side (think that's pin 1) on the shunt (the side with only one cable - the two cables run back to the batteries). But, why not run it back to the batteries...making it impossible to remove all loads to the batteries...ahhhhhh.

It's an easy mod, I think. Too cold yet to go out and play.

My plan would be to:

Need two additional 4/0 cables (just long enough to be neat - only 1 if no additional shunt), disco switch and WonVon shunt (optional).

Add in a disco switch (capable of at least 400amps/@12V - or more if you have a bigger battery bank - I have 200ah) one side of the switch gets the two cables from the batteries.

Add in the WonVon shunt (400amp), connected to the other side of the disco switch.

The other side of the WonVon shunt goes to the Balmar shunt (where the two battery cables were b4)

Cut the wire on the regulator pin 1 - connect pin 1 wire to the Balmar shunt on the opposite end from where the WonVon shunt is connected.

Now the disco switch should be able to completely isolate the negative cables from the batteries...still need to confirm this all on my rig.

It seems they changed the wiring style/routes and connections based on whatever they had laying around that week.

ron
A couple belated comments/questions although I know you have already done the disconnect and the shunt.

You mention changing the battery low temp from "0f to -4f". That's celsius not F, correct? As I recall the factory preset is 0C/32F.

I'm looking at adding the Balmar protection module (APM-12) and so was reading thru the various Balmar literature. In regard to the disconnect switch, they say to not run the alternator (UHG) with the batteries disconnected. True for any alternator I'm sure. So, did you also add a switch to the regulator ignition wire (brown) in order to disconnect and protect the alternator? Or are you counting on remembering to not start the engine inadvertently when batteries are disconnected? I understand the disconnect is specifically for putting in storage or for working on the 12v system. I'm just curious because I'm not sure my memory would be good enough to always remember to not run it.

Mike
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Old 03-20-2023, 10:00 PM   #31
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You are correct...0C down to -4C...my mistake - good catch. I haven't tested removing it altogether as in the FB post I read. Another solution would be to put a switch on (pin 7 or 8) for really cold weather camping and leave it on for warmer weather.

I added the disconnect, mostly for storage. Storage for me, is winterized, covered, so not much of a chance running the engine with no battery load.

Yep, running the UGH without a load is a no-no...even with the APM-12 installed.

However, I can confirm that the brown wire disconnected, disabled the regulator...and the UGH will not get a field therefore not deliver current.

I found that wire disconnected by the time I got my unit home. It either was never connected, or came loose...Nonetheless, it might be a good idea to put a switch on the line, just in case. My brown wire, is spliced with a Wago connector, could just open it up and pull the wire too...either way works.

If you look (zoom in) at the pics of the disco, I initially mounted the WonVon shunt backwards, since the pic, I turned it around. I didn't pay attention to the markings when I first installed it. Both the Wonvon shunt and the Balmar shunt have markings...-Batt/Load and -Batt/Cable respectively. The -Batt goes closest to the -B connection.

The APM-12 thing is a great idea. The way this was designed, Thor should have included it.

It finally got warm enough to start the rest of the work. Next project, update the solar controller and add the second 190w panel. I was going to add another 200ah of batteries, but I think I'll wait until I see how our first cross country trip in May works out with just a second panel and idling the engine to charge.


Ron.
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Old 04-03-2023, 01:50 PM   #32
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Solar controller replaced...glad I did it.

The controller on a 20L is behind the drawers in the bathroom. It's a horrible place to work, left handed or right handed, just no room to maneuver.

I managed to remove the screws holding the existing controller, no surprise to me (more like disappointment), pulling the unit out -- both the battery and solar wires just came out - as if they were never screwed down.

Luckily, I had the batteries disconnected and the cover on the unit, so no solar output.

The new 30amp weights about 3-5x the old 10amp. Holding it up while screwing it in is a challenge.

I purchased the GP-RVC-MPPT-30 and the BlueTooth add-on display. This controller can also deliver charge to a second set of batteries - ie. the chassis battery, just need to run the wires. It takes care of two issues, ability to expand the solar capability and charge the chassis battery (which previously only charged when engine running).

Ron
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Old 04-16-2023, 11:17 PM   #33
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THOR #27874
I finally got enough time and nice weather to re-do all the rear underside wiring and added the Balmar APM-12 to the protect the coach from field dump. That install came with a surprise, shouldn't have been...I disconnected the batteries and still had full 12v on the alternator B+...forgot to pull the solar controller fuse. Pulled fuse and safely installed APM-12.

As described before, lots of sloppy work - mostly crushed non-water proof connectors (on the tank heater connections), quite a few exposed wires - they never put them in the split-loom and some really tight wiring.

I did confirm that there are direct connects to one of the lithiums, two red wires and one black. One red is voltage sense (not fused - added fuse) for the Balmar Regulator, the other red wire (fused) is + power for the Balmar regulator and the black wire on the B- battery post is - power for the Balmar regulator.

With my new setup, I can completely disconnect the B- side of both batteries. Pulling the 20amp solar controller fuse, and pulling the + power from the reguatlor (probably will put a switch on this) will completely isolate the batteries from the electrical system. I will be able to store the unit properly without having to worry about the battery system having any parasitic drain (other than the internal BMS).

Ron
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