Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Motorcoach & Motorhome > Class B & B+ Motorhomes
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-15-2021, 06:40 PM   #41
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 24F
State: Ohio
Posts: 4,171
THOR #16721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubawise View Post
Love the b video..

“Hymer USA will feature a very different way of manufacturing not currently seen in the North American RV industry, including automated processes that will be implemented throughout design and assembly,” James said. “Products will benefit from the world-leading quality standards set by EHG and our new work environment will feature highly skilled team members collaborating directly with employees from EHG’s European operations while incorporating the speed to market for which Thor is well-regarded.”
https://youtu.be/aLHux4SuXbY

Anyone who's watched "the Jayco build video" SHOULD understand why you have issues with your RV from the get-go.

Be honest... how many of you have ever worked a job where you were literally RUNNING during an assembly process? If the WHOLE CREW is working at this maddening pace, what happens when a screw is mis-driven or a clamp isn't properly tightened? Ya think everyone stops just so Buford can fix his error and the customer will be happy?? In your dreams...

Be DOUBLY honest... how many of you actually think this is EFFICIENT production? How many of you "age appropriate" fellas could work at this pace for 8 - 10 hours straight... 5 - 6 days a week?

So, you have extremely tired employees literally running with the goal to assemble your RV as quickly as possible. What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

Here's a "companion" video to see what happens in the real world to your "quickly built" NEW RV.

https://youtu.be/0NvPIzK0VtU

EVERY prospective RV buyer should watch these two videos to see EXACTLY what they may be getting into. Results may vary... mine did.

__________________
Chateau_Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 06:55 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
Scubawise's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Vegas 25.6
State: New Mexico
Posts: 5,119
THOR #20220
Thanks for sharing..that is unreal@
6 dam hours at that speed

I feel lucky anything worked.

Saw no quality control
Can you imagine someone out sick or tired
__________________
LAS CRUCES 2020 Thor Vegas 25.6
Lora & George. Golden Retriever & Multi-Gen Australian labradoodle & new ALD in March. Happy Campers!! E Biking, Hiking, Tennis, Scuba,Fishing,Cross Country Skiing, Snowshoeing. Retired H.S. Principal, Sr. IT Engineer, Life & Health Insurance Agent
"Today is a Gift and Why it is called the Present"
Scubawise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 07:25 PM   #43
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Connecticut
Posts: 1,792
THOR #20289
I don't understand the economics of what they are doing. Six hours for final assembly with what, maybe 5 guys working on average. That is 30 manhours and at $30 per hour is less than $1,000 of labor on a trailer that sells for what $20,000.

They could slow things down by 50%, pay their guys 50% more and avoid all of the problems in the second video by paying only $1,000 more to build it right.

Or does Jayco (and most others) get away with such crap so they can save the extra $1,000. Yes I think so.

I wonder what the average warranty bill is for such poor craftsmanship. Unfortunately it is probably much less than the cost to eliminate it.

David
__________________
DavidEM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 07:35 PM   #44
Senior Member
 
Scubawise's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Vegas 25.6
State: New Mexico
Posts: 5,119
THOR #20220
I bet they count on most folks doing little traveling the 1st year and/or doing it themselves
__________________
LAS CRUCES 2020 Thor Vegas 25.6
Lora & George. Golden Retriever & Multi-Gen Australian labradoodle & new ALD in March. Happy Campers!! E Biking, Hiking, Tennis, Scuba,Fishing,Cross Country Skiing, Snowshoeing. Retired H.S. Principal, Sr. IT Engineer, Life & Health Insurance Agent
"Today is a Gift and Why it is called the Present"
Scubawise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 08:10 PM   #45
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Connecticut
Posts: 1,792
THOR #20289
Yes, I did it myself to put our 2021 Axis into decent shape. I probably spent 100 hours diagnosing and fixing problems. A savvy RV tech who had experienced these issues before could have probably done it in a dozen hours. But that is close to the additional $1,000 that it would cost Thor to do it right in the factory.

I am sure that Thor implicitly or explicitly makes the calculation of extra build cost vs warranty costs every day. That calculation almost always favors letting the warranty (such as it is) try to deal with it.

David
__________________
DavidEM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 08:22 PM   #46
Senior Member
 
Scubawise's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Vegas 25.6
State: New Mexico
Posts: 5,119
THOR #20220
You could really help all Axis Veges owners

100 hours diagnosing and fixing problems.
__________________
LAS CRUCES 2020 Thor Vegas 25.6
Lora & George. Golden Retriever & Multi-Gen Australian labradoodle & new ALD in March. Happy Campers!! E Biking, Hiking, Tennis, Scuba,Fishing,Cross Country Skiing, Snowshoeing. Retired H.S. Principal, Sr. IT Engineer, Life & Health Insurance Agent
"Today is a Gift and Why it is called the Present"
Scubawise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 08:36 PM   #47
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 24F
State: Ohio
Posts: 4,171
THOR #16721
Investors smile when a unit rolls out the door... investors frown when Buford stops to put in a missed screw. Is THIS the level that American manufacturing has stooped to?? Where's the pride in a job well done?
__________________
Chateau_Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 09:07 PM   #48
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Connecticut
Posts: 1,792
THOR #20289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubawise View Post
You could really help all Axis Veges owners

100 hours diagnosing and fixing problems.
I haven't a clue what this means.

David
__________________
DavidEM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 09:38 PM   #49
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 6,187
THOR #2121
Workers on that video are doing the best they can, and working at a very fast rate.

The guy on the first video probably shouldn't own any RV, and in particular a cheap trailer. Most people know that if a big guy leans back on a dinette back it will likely break. Same as people who push down on dinette tables to get up, and then complain when it pulls out of wall. The table is meant to support a dinner or two, not a 250-pound guy.

We all have different opinions, but I question the judgment of pulling a trailer that large with that type of SUV.

The real problem I see is that to keep price and weight that low, the trailer has to be built cheap and light-duty. If built with excellent design, engineering, and assembly, the cost would be so high that buyers would not purchase enough of them to keep Thor in business. There are trailers half that size that cost 2~3 times as much, including Airstream and others.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 09:41 PM   #50
Site Team
 
EA37TS's Avatar
 
Brand: Entegra
Model: Accolade 37TS
State: South Dakota
Posts: 8,771
THOR #1469
Comparing the travel trailer production process to issues with a motor home.

Apparently nobody caught the final audit step.

Also, donít compare your problems with entry level cheap Thor motorhomes to Jayco. Jayco may be owned by Thor Industries but they are not run by Thor Motor Coach (aka, Trashy Motor Coach).

BTW, did anyone read the RV Travel article on buyers being partially at fault in poor quality due to poor PDIs and accepting poorly built units?
__________________
EA37TS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 10:24 PM   #51
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 24F
State: Ohio
Posts: 4,171
THOR #16721
I saw no auditing/inspection during assembly, when it's critical... before problems are hidden behind walls.

And a "caulk inspection" as it's rolling out the door doesn't count.

Lightweight doesn't necessarily mean weak/poorly engineered and built. Otherwise there would be few airplanes overhead.
__________________
Chateau_Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 10:33 PM   #52
Senior Member
 
Scubawise's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Vegas 25.6
State: New Mexico
Posts: 5,119
THOR #20220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubawise View Post
You could really help all Axis Veges owners

100 hours diagnosing and fixing problems.
You spent 100 hours fixing things. Great experience
__________________
LAS CRUCES 2020 Thor Vegas 25.6
Lora & George. Golden Retriever & Multi-Gen Australian labradoodle & new ALD in March. Happy Campers!! E Biking, Hiking, Tennis, Scuba,Fishing,Cross Country Skiing, Snowshoeing. Retired H.S. Principal, Sr. IT Engineer, Life & Health Insurance Agent
"Today is a Gift and Why it is called the Present"
Scubawise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 10:56 PM   #53
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Connecticut
Posts: 1,792
THOR #20289
It might be worthwhile retelling the Livin Lite story:

Livin Lite was founded in the early 2000s by Scott Tuttle under the premise that his TTs would be simple, made of non corrosive, non organic materials (ie aluminum frame, cabinets with aluminum frames and Azdel panels, no wood) and built well. They were well received and developed a cult following like Scamp, Oliver, etc. I bought mine in early 2013 and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. It was the lightest TT of its size made- 3,000 lbs for a 16' box length.

In late 2013 or early 2014 Thor bought LL from Scott, moved the factory from its independent shop and consolidated it with another Thor brand. They changed the roof from aluminum to TPO, started installing cheap fiberboard paneled cabinets, dropped the double pane German made windows, changed the aluminum channel flooring to composite, changed twin axle models to singles, etc., etc.

Owners started complaining about poor quality materials and poor workmanship. It quickly lost its cult status and was just another crummy Thor product. A few years later Thor shut it down because they weren't selling anymore. Wonder why?

David
__________________
DavidEM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 11:23 PM   #54
Site Team
 
EA37TS's Avatar
 
Brand: Entegra
Model: Accolade 37TS
State: South Dakota
Posts: 8,771
THOR #1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidEM View Post
It might be worthwhile retelling the Livin Lite story:

Livin Lite was founded in the early 2000s by Scott Tuttle under the premise that his TTs would be simple, made of non corrosive, non organic materials (ie aluminum frame, cabinets with aluminum frames and Azdel panels, no wood) and built well. They were well received and developed a cult following like Scamp, Oliver, etc. I bought mine in early 2013 and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. It was the lightest TT of its size made- 3,000 lbs for a 16' box length.

In late 2013 or early 2014 Thor bought LL from Scott, moved the factory from its independent shop and consolidated it with another Thor brand. They changed the roof from aluminum to TPO, started installing cheap fiberboard paneled cabinets, dropped the double pane German made windows, changed the aluminum channel flooring to composite, changed twin axle models to singles, etc., etc.

Owners started complaining about poor quality materials and poor workmanship. It quickly lost its cult status and was just another crummy Thor product. A few years later Thor shut it down because they weren't selling anymore. Wonder why?

David
Totally different story being told over here.

https://www.livinlite.com/forum/index.php/topic,51.0.html
__________________
EA37TS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2021, 11:25 PM   #55
Site Team
 
EA37TS's Avatar
 
Brand: Entegra
Model: Accolade 37TS
State: South Dakota
Posts: 8,771
THOR #1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidEM View Post
It might be worthwhile retelling the Livin Lite story:

Livin Lite was founded in the early 2000s by Scott Tuttle under the premise that his TTs would be simple, made of non corrosive, non organic materials (ie aluminum frame, cabinets with aluminum frames and Azdel panels, no wood) and built well. They were well received and developed a cult following like Scamp, Oliver, etc. I bought mine in early 2013 and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. It was the lightest TT of its size made- 3,000 lbs for a 16' box length.

In late 2013 or early 2014 Thor bought LL from Scott, moved the factory from its independent shop and consolidated it with another Thor brand. They changed the roof from aluminum to TPO, started installing cheap fiberboard paneled cabinets, dropped the double pane German made windows, changed the aluminum channel flooring to composite, changed twin axle models to singles, etc., etc.

Owners started complaining about poor quality materials and poor workmanship. It quickly lost its cult status and was just another crummy Thor product. A few years later Thor shut it down because they weren't selling anymore. Wonder why?

David
Totally different story being told over here.

https://www.livinlite.com/forum/index.php/topic,51.0.html

Thor provided the ability to modernize and update their facilities.
__________________
EA37TS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2021, 01:16 AM   #56
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 6,187
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad View Post
......cut......

Lightweight doesn't necessarily mean weak/poorly engineered and built. Otherwise there would be few airplanes overhead.

Of course not, but if you want light ďandĒ strong, well built, durable, etc. at same time, it adds a lot of cost. Have you checked airplane prices lately?

Hymer builds very light trailers and motorhomes, but thatís because they have to for European market. And they are expensive.

High-end racing bicycles is another area where you have to spend a lot of money to make them light and strong (plus other qualities like great ride, handling, and beauty). My carbon fiber bike weighs a lot less than my steel, with aluminum and titanium in middle of that. Light and good isnít cheap to build.

If we wanted a very light trailer it could be built from carbon fiber like some airplanes, but it would be cost prohibitive for 99% of buyers. Just saying buyers shouldnít expect something for nothing.

Iím not defending poor quality in any way. Just saying buyers also have to have reasonable expectations.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2021, 04:27 AM   #57
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 24F
State: Ohio
Posts: 4,171
THOR #16721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
Of course not, but if you want light ďandĒ strong, well built, durable, etc. at same time, it adds a lot of cost. Have you checked airplane prices lately?

Hymer builds very light trailers and motorhomes, but thatís because they have to for European market. And they are expensive.

High-end racing bicycles is another area where you have to spend a lot of money to make them light and strong (plus other qualities like great ride, handling, and beauty). My carbon fiber bike weighs a lot less than my steel, with aluminum and titanium in middle of that. Light and good isnít cheap to build.

If we wanted a very light trailer it could be built from carbon fiber like some airplanes, but it would be cost prohibitive for 99% of buyers. Just saying buyers shouldnít expect something for nothing.

Iím not defending poor quality in any way. Just saying buyers also have to have reasonable expectations.
Even an aluminum aircraft will always be relatively expensive because of redundancy and liability insurance. Ask Cessna.

I think for RVs there's a middle of the road. Somewhere between exotic and junk. A midway point between cardboard and carbon fiber.

But I think the largest room for improvement is simply build quality. It's evident in (at least earlier) Grand Design products. Not perfect by any means, but better than most in their price bracket. They use essentially the same products/components as the others, but things just fit much better than average.

As petroleum prices rise and inflation skyrockets, I fear RV prices will continue to rise... even with NO build quality improvement.
__________________
Chateau_Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2021, 01:27 PM   #58
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Four Winds 26B
State: Ohio
Posts: 490
THOR #20900
Quote:
Originally Posted by EA37TS View Post
Totally different story being told over here.

https://www.livinlite.com/forum/inde...opic,51.0.html

Thor provided the ability to modernize and update their facilities.
Interesting read. Reading down through the thread, it sounds like there were a couple bad years, when it was under Thor's Crossroads management, then got better again after being transferred to Thor's K-Z.
__________________
2021 Thor Four Winds 26B on Chevy 4500
atreis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2021, 01:37 PM   #59
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Chateau 24F
State: Ohio
Posts: 4,171
THOR #16721
Quote:
Originally Posted by atreis View Post
Interesting read. Reading down through the thread, it sounds like there were a couple bad years, when it was under Thor's Crossroads management, then got better again after being transferred to Thor's K-Z.
But when you're dealing with a cult of fanboys, warts often become invisible - and a completely unbiased opinion is impossible.

You see that all the time in the pickup truck market. There's every reason to believe it also exists with motorhomes/travel trailers.

That's NOT to say the products aren't high quality - just that the reviews may be skewed. Of course that can work BOTH ways - good and bad.
__________________
Chateau_Nomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2021, 04:32 PM   #60
Junior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Michigan
Posts: 7
THOR #25113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
Hymer builds very light trailers and motorhomes, but thatís because they have to for European market. And they are expensive.
The European B/C class type (6-7 meter) all seem to be much lower cost than US msrp. Most fall between 50 and 100 k euros. I suspect in US the dealer margin is 30-50%. This could be to cover all the warranty work that is a given, and why the selling dealer has to be used.

You need to watch the tours of euro models, they typically appear to be better than Airstream quality.
__________________
MrRV is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 04:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2