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Old 06-27-2020, 09:25 PM   #1
Thor Palazzo 33.3 diesel
 
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THOR #4735
Exclamation Living, or surviving, on 'only' a household outlet

there's a lot of discussion of what you 'can' or 'can't' do when you have only access to 'less than' electrical power than what you RV's shore cord is designed for... and there are a lot of failures in understanding that you 'can' actually do a lot more than some may understand, IF it is treated correctly... meaning, mostly operator error in most cases, if it does not work as you expect.


Case in point - today:

we arrived in North Georgia, at a truck shop, to wait out until Monday morning for service.
they have several outside GFCI household type outlets.
while it would be nice to use my 'dual adapter' to bring two of these outlets, if on separate circuits, to the RV for up to 30amps, I know, by experience, that these adapters don't work with a GFCI outlet.....so.....

I'm relegated to only access the ONE household outlet that is close by...o.k., we'll make do with what we have access to, regardless.
My 50amp 4-prong shore cord is plugged into my 30amp 3-prong adapter.
That adapter is then plugged into a 'household' 3-prong adapter, and
then into the 'household' GFCI outlet.

I'm now running a roof air conditioner, during the heat of the day, while also enjoying 4 different electric fans spread out within the coach, having the 120v residential fridge running, charging the phones and computers, having the battery charger provide a trickle charge to the batteries, all while enjoying satellite tv from the receiver. Nice.


'CAN' you enjoy yourself while 'only' on a household outlet. Maybe yes.

I do believe, though, it will have to do with what you 'limit' yourself to, even with me just saying how much we are doing, but we are 'doing' it carefully. If the circuit's breaker trips, I will have NO access to reset it, so I 'must' be careful, but at the same time enjoy the power.
It's now quite comfortable, and it's not resulting in any 'situations' that we can't overcome. If and when we want to use the microwave, we will simply turn OFF the roof air conditioner during that short time, since it uses even less power than the air conditioner's compressor. That a/c compressor is what I'm most 'careful' with, as I want to make sure that there is very little already 'running' when it goes to kick on, which is typically when a breaker might trip, during the 'surge' of amperage needed for the start of the compressor. Ultimately, though, when the a/c unit and compressor is already running, it is only using a much smaller amperage, giving you room for those 'other' things you want to have electrical power to.

Admittedly, many breakers are of differing age and weakness, and we may eventually encounter one that does not provide as much usage before it trips, but, until then, we'll enjoy this one!


ENJOY, many things are possible! : )
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:46 PM   #2
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Thanks for this info!
I'd love to see a picture of all those Dogbones strung together..,
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:58 PM   #3
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Smile

nope, just easy small adapter 'pucks'...nothin' to it

I've used these since we started RVing over 5 years ago, and over 100,000 miles 'ago'....simple, easy, and they just work.
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:07 AM   #4
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.
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:39 AM   #5
Thor Palazzo 33.3 diesel
 
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THOR #4735
as a note, about the difference between a 'puck' adapter and a 'dogbone' type adapter, some will say that only a 'dogbone' large adapter is the 'best' to use, or 'safer' or some other 'reasoning' to use one over the other.
The reality is that there is absolutely no difference, except for price and size. Otherwise, they both do the exact same thing - 'adapt' one type/size of outlet to another. Simple.
The internal wiring is the same, which is the only concern, anyway.

Don't overthink it. Keep it simple.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:02 AM   #6
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I have one of each. I thought there might be a difference in their abilities to carry a "heavy" load. (I thought the puck might get hot)
But they both stayed cool!
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:39 AM   #7
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I have one of each. I thought there might be a difference in their abilities to carry a "heavy" load. (I thought the puck might get hot)
But they both stayed cool!
You're right Bob. As the pucks age and the connectors and blades get dirty and corroded they present a higher resistance connection which heats up at max loads. The pucks do not have enough surface area to dissipate this heat and tend to melt. The dogbones have additional wire length and surface are to dissipate the heat.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:32 AM   #8
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...and I barely know which fingers should be kept out of electrical sockets!
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:55 AM   #9
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...only the ones you want to keep ; )
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:31 PM   #10
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......cut.....

I'm now running a roof air conditioner, during the heat of the day, while also enjoying 4 different electric fans spread out within the coach, having the 120v residential fridge running, charging the phones and computers, having the battery charger provide a trickle charge to the batteries, all while enjoying satellite tv from the receiver. Nice.


'CAN' you enjoy yourself while 'only' on a household outlet. Maybe yes.

.......cut.....
Did you know in advance if you were on 15 or 20 Amp circuit?

When cutting it that close, air conditioner size and efficiency is very important due to variations in Amp draw. Some may pull as little as 11 Amps and others over 15 Amps. What were you running? And were you monitoring total current?

Anyway, your example shows that newer mid-size motorhomes with 30A service can have two small Power Saver air conditioners as long as one is turned off temporarily while microwave is used. The extra 10~15 Amps can power the second A/C.
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:55 PM   #11
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no, this is just a temporary situation where we are waiting out several days over the weekend until the shop opens Monday morning - arrived and found the GFCI outlet and decided to sit and make do with what we have access to. With a possible radiator problem, I don't want to necessary drive around searching for a campground, even if I wanted to.
The GFCI outlet is working just fine. The 13.5kw roof air conditioner is working just fine, and is capable of powering the unit with no problem.

There have been many threads on these and other forums about being able to 'run' two roof a/c units while 'only' on 30amp power, which is certainly possible, as we've done it many times. It's also certainly possible to power a single roof a/c unit while only on an outside GFCI outlet, too.

:roof a/c unit, 4 electric fans, roof fan, residential fridge, computer and device chargers, tv receiver, and a small trickle charge from the Battery Charger...


there are some things to consider/check when you are first 'powering up' the air conditioner: is the fridge's compressor already running, is the battery charger in 'bulk charging' mode, the 'shore power max' setting on the Magnum inverter battery charger, etc.

while it's possible to do what we are doing on a simple GFCI outlet, you do have to 'manage' how you do it. Make sure that most everything is 'off' or 'not running' when you first power on the a/c unit, especially when the compressor first kicks on. When it has a chance to run for a few seconds, it's power draw will be considerably less, leaving room for those 'other' things you want to also power at the same time: especially the fridge's compressor when it kicks on several times each hour.

Once the a/c unit is running/cooling, the fridge's compressor is running, and all your other devices/battery charger are operating, you'll be set, and know that when things cut on or off during the course of time, you have enough power to make it all happen.
Now, as for the a/c unit, we have it's fan set to 'low', for constant fan movement, and the Temp down to it's lowest setting, so that the compressor actually runs constantly. If it gets 'too' cool for us, we just turn the a/c unit off for the time being, rather than letting the unit decide when and if the run, or not run, it's compressor.

We also know, if it's not handled correctly, or we easily 'forget' and someone turns on the microwave, we may trip the GFCI outlet's circuit breaker, and loose ALL power, with no way to have access to reset it. It can seem like a crap shoot at first, but once everything is up and operational, and you have a chance to finally relax a little, it's just fine, and the initial concerns or worries seem to fade quickly with time, especially if you watch a couple of episodes of 'Duck Commander' in the mean time! : )
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:09 PM   #12
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admittedly, this post may sound like a brag, but I'm really just showing a 'real world' situation to make a proof that sometimes what we 'hear' around the campfire, or from others who 'seem' to know about electricity, or the incorrect assumptions by some that certain things 'aren't possible' and shouldn't even be 'attempted'.

One of the things that seems to really get 'RVrs' going is the subject of 'plugging in'.
When you talk about 'electricity' around the campfire, attitudes quickly come to the forefront, rather than facts.

Yes, there will be many, in the same situation that I am now, who will never endeavor to even 'try' to use a simple outlet to power their RV. There will be others who will, but will demand that 'no one' should even attempt to try to run one of their roof air conditioners while doing so, as though it will somehow 'blow up' something, or 'damage' the a/c unit. And, there will be a few of the others of us who don't always bow down to what seems to be 'common knowledge' and actually prove out that what people 'hear' over and over again isn't always fact.

Some will plug in and immediately trip the breaker. They may not have planned well, though out the subject, and correctly dialed down the appropriate appliances and devices before doing so.
They may also have plugged into a circuit with a weak, or overly sensitive, breaker.
Some will not realize that their battery charger is currently in 'bulk charging' mode, and is what is taking them 'over the limit' for the breaker, even though it would have worked perfectly, otherwise.
Some will have a larger 15kw a/c unit, which draws more start-up power, and this may not apply to them, or it may not be as easy. Every situation can be different.

in the end, it's POSSIBLE, not 'impossible'.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:47 PM   #13
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It's all about figuring out the balance between what you need...
...and what you have to work with.
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Old 06-28-2020, 01:52 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
admittedly, this post may sound like a brag, but I'm really just showing a 'real world' situation to make a proof that sometimes what we 'hear' around the campfire, or from others who 'seem' to know about electricity, or the incorrect assumptions by some that certain things 'aren't possible' and shouldn't even be 'attempted'. Every situation can be different.

in the end, it's POSSIBLE, not 'impossible'.
I am newbie ( 8 months as actual owner); but I can confirm all that I have read thus far to be true in my experience. We have 50 amp service & two 13.5ks.

I carry at all time 2 dogbones, 20 to 50 amps, and 30 to 50 amps. For good measures I also have the 50 amp surge guard that I always insert in between.

So far; the way we use our RV; I will say when I have electricity available it is about 1/3 time 15-20 amps, 1/3 time 30 amps, and 1/3 times 50 amp. I have never tripped a breaker except when I tried to run both ACs on my 30 amp 3500 watt Sinemate portable generator. Not sure why I did that test; but may have been related to neutral ground I had made, but I digress

My power management systems knows if shore power is NOT 50 amps and assumes 30 amps; unless I specifically push button a pad button to tell it that it is 20amp. The PMS will manage the loads, or at al least assist me to NOT run the 2nd AC unless I just want to.

But I agree with what the OP is stating. In fact, I can take it further, because of my actual experience of what I may or may not do on 15/20 amps service is pretty much the same as what I can do on 30 amps.

Also... I could always switch my fridge to propane if I wanted to, but thus far it has not been an issue. Another thing I could do is turn inverter on to power the TVs, outside fridge, and some inside receptacles to relieve some load off the 15/20 amp breaker. Our AC vents are ducted; so we close off the ducts in the back to force all of the air in the front regardless of which unit is own.
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Old 06-28-2020, 02:19 PM   #15
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....cut....

Another thing I could do is turn inverter on to power the TVs, outside fridge, and some inside receptacles to relieve some load off the 15/20 amp breaker. .....cut....
If I understand your plan correctly, that will work but only as a short-term temporary fix unless you have lots of solar to charge batteries. Otherwise batteries will go dead, or the battery charger (converter) will end up using more power than you saved.
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Old 06-28-2020, 03:04 PM   #16
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If I understand your plan correctly, that will work but only as a short-term temporary fix unless you have lots of solar to charge batteries. Otherwise batteries will go dead, or the battery charger (converter) will end up using more power than you saved.
Ah a thinking man I see... I like these virtual problems as they are lot more fun than having to experience them when you are on the road

Okay let me start by saying I have no solar. I think it is great, but I have never seen the financial benefit. If I ever wanted solar, I think I would want a lot more than 1000watt and build it ground up.

As far as your scenario goes, in my case; when I have any shore power (15-20amps or more) the battery charger is on; so while inverter is on (remote button in RV), the batteries are being replenished. I have yet to see the output from Inverter be such that it had negative drain on house batteries when charger was on? It certainly does not have negative impact when running off the engine alternator; which I do all the time on every trip.

Next trip, I will have to look to see if my House batteries voltage is dropping when Inverter is on & shore power is connected? I think in past, I have always turned off the Inverter when shore power was on; as I did NOT need. But in example above, if I was on 20 amps and really worried about tripping the outside breaker as OP stated, I would turn on the inverter to offset some load off the 20 amp circuit.

But let's make an assumption that it could drain my house batteries a little over time (a day or two); I could get around that by making certain my AGS is on. If my House batteries hit 12.5v (my programmed voltage to start to generator) my generator will start and guess what ... it will ensure power to the charger that it already had from shore So if the Generator can supply sufficient power to charge over the normal drain caused by inverter being on, why wouldn't the same happen for shore power?

The below is bonus...
In my case depending on how I have the Onan AGS configured, with AGS on.... once it hits the 12.5v (my programmed voltage to start to generator) it would trigger to start generator; but since shore power is sensed on pins 13 & 14 at the controller, the Generator will not start. It is user defined setting; so I may turn that off so the generator will start even though shore power is on. It is the latter scenario that I used above in assumption. I just wanted to point out that I can optionally have my generator to NOT start if shore power is detected. I don't believe my coach batteries will drain with normal 1000 watts of load, or less with any shore power.
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Old 06-28-2020, 03:41 PM   #17
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
...
But I agree with what the OP is stating. In fact, I can take it further, because of my actual experience of what I may or may not do on 15/20 amps service is pretty much the same as what I can do on 30 amps. ...
yes, the difference is not as 'much' as many may think, because in most situations with any 30amp RV, the usage is actually not as close to that 30amp maximum as might be thought. With 20amps, you might obviously much closer, but even then, chances are that unless you are doing almost 'everything' all at the same time in the RV, it would work just fine.

Now, let me also add a few additional thoughts about this 'plugging in' to a regular outlet, or a GFCI outlet, like I first discussed.

- there is several possible scenarios that may be in play when you encounter a situation like this. One that may not at first be evident is that your RV may not be the ONLY draw from that circuit. If you are visiting relatives, parked in their driveway, and your only 120v power option is their garage GFCI outlet, chances are, they may ALSO have some draws on that same circuit, such as maybe a freezer in the garage, an outside device such as an irrigation timer, etc.
In that case, you can certainly ascertain that you are not really going to have to 'full' amount of amperage that I may be seeing here where I'm plugged in. This commercial building has several GFCI outlets located around it's perimeter, and while there is nothing else plugged into any of them, I can only assume that I'm the only draw, though it's really a throw of the dice until you know you are running everything you wish, successfully.

- another scenario is that the breaker for the outlet's circuit may be either 15amp or 20amp, but if you have no access to the breaker, like I don't here, then you are just 'guessing' about the amount of power you can use. The only 'real' way to know is to ramp up usage, slowly, and see how much of what you 'need' to do is possible, without losing power. I am successful here, but if this commercial building had another GFCI outlet, unknown or unseen to me, being used by a live device, I may have found quickly that this same outcome was not as possible, at least with ALL that I am currently powering. I may have lost power, tripping the breaker, and having to find either another 'live' outlet to access, or otherwise be without shore power, or go somewhere else that does.

My point is that in unique situations like this, you just don't necessarily have all the information to know your limitation, other than taking a test to see. If it's temperate weather, and you don't need any air conditioning, then you probably will have no problem. If it's really hot, and the real 'need' you have is for the air conditioner, you might find it successful, or you may find yourself without power, all together.

Finally, someone mentioned something about an adapter puck versus a dogbone. I found this adapter puck at wmt today, and found that since it has a somewhat 'clear' body, you can see the stout size of the internal wiring, which makes me even more confident that these pucks are really wired just as 'correct', and 'safe', as any other type of connector, and maybe even more so because they don't need to make use of any additional 'wiring cable' between the two connections - and it's all 'encased' within this simple body.
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Old 06-28-2020, 06:38 PM   #18
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Ah a thinking man I see... I like these virtual problems as they are lot more fun than having to experience them when you are on the road

Okay let me start by saying I have no solar. I think it is great, but I have never seen the financial benefit. If I ever wanted solar, I think I would want a lot more than 1000watt and build it ground up.

As far as your scenario goes, in my case; when I have any shore power (15-20amps or more) the battery charger is on; so while inverter is on (remote button in RV), the batteries are being replenished. I have yet to see the output from Inverter be such that it had negative drain on house batteries when charger was on? It certainly does not have negative impact when running off the engine alternator; which I do all the time on every trip.

......cut.....

Because of converter, battery, and inverter energy inefficiencies (none are 100% efficient), it takes more energy to feed the converter than what the inverter makes. Without outside help from solar, generator, or alternator, you'll use more energy than you save in the long run, or in steady-state operation.

If you turn off converter or limit how much it charges batteries, then the inverter can use previously-stored energy in batteries to produce 120V power, but that’s only possible on a temporary (short-term or transient) basis.

Anyway, you’re correct that running some items powered by inverter will give you more “total” power while connected to limited shore capacity, but only if you limit battery charging during that time.
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Old 06-28-2020, 08:36 PM   #19
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I'm not sure I agree with the idea that turning 'on' your inverter is somehow going to help maximize the amount of shore power available. The Inverter, unless it is a HYBRID design, is simply 'passing thru' shore power to those items normally otherwise powered by the inverter.
So, the outcome is the same. If you are using 12amps, you are using 12amps, regardless of whether the inverter is ON or OFF, when plugged into shore power.

Now, with certain Inverters with Integrated Battery Chargers, like our Magnum, there is a 'Shore Max' setting, which allows the owner to tell the system what 'amount' of amperage is available, such as 15 or 20amps, as we've discussed. The system then monitors the amperage usage, and pairs back the Battery Charger so that there is less of chance of IT contributing to a tripped breaker.
But, you can also use this 'Shore Max' setting to 'customized' how YOU want the battery charger to perform while on 'less than' full power, such as turning it back to 5 or 10amps. This allows for even MORE headroom for the rest of the usage in the RV, but at the same time allowing the battery charger to at least provide a 'trickle charge' none-the-less, which is what I am doing right now in our described GFCI outlet situation, while running the air conditioner.
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Old 06-28-2020, 08:53 PM   #20
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I'm curious about your inverter/charger...
Do you have a model description?
(And link to their website...)
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