WARNING -- Virginia is discriminating against handicap folks

[CaptnJohn]

Reasonable accommodation does not include violating safety for the handicapped or general public.

































































Reasonable accommodation does not include putting the handicapped or general public in an unsafe situation. VA has determined what they believe is safe to use. VA lawyers get paid no matter what they do so it can go all the way. VA will not change their mind to accommodate 1 person no matter how entitled they feel when there are alternatives. The decision of scooter was made without enough research.

[The Gritz Carlton]

If it weren't for the majority of the entitled abusing it, it would make sense. Everyday, I see well-fit soccer moms jumping from their SUVs in their way too tight long underwear, trotting into the stores after parking in handicap spaces. I see people with their smelly dogs walking into McDonald's, or sitting them up at tables in restaurants just because they were able to obtain a "Service Dog" permit...by lying about the circumstances. It's the less than 1% that, when given an inch they take 5 miles, ruin every real need for assistance in this country....and the "officials" are too afraid to challenge legitimacy.

[Bob Denman]

This might simply be a case of Virginia wanting to keep Golf Carts off of these trails...

.. without fully realizing how that the Cricket is not your typical Golf Cart...

It's been a while since I've looked at their specifications; but I believe that they are just about 32 inches wide, and weigh just a touch over 300 pounds.
The typical Golf Cart weighs about 700 pounds (depending upon it's configuration), and is 47" or 48" wide...


I've got no dog in this fight on either side; but it seems as if more information could be used by everyone.

[Lt Keefer]

Michael, I re-read your first post and something dawned on me. You say that the personnel at Claytor Lake would not let your wife drive her Cricket down the 'path' that RVs use to get to their sites. That statement is misleading. The 'path' that RVs use is actually called a road and mobility devices are usually not allowed on roads. I have been to Claytor Lake SP, nice place by the way, great friendly staff last summer, and while the roads may look like paths, they are roads not footpaths. Maybe instead of forcing your lifestyle on the taxpayers of Virginia you should accept the limitations you have and make appropriate adjustments. Side note, I say this as a disabled veteran that is married to another disabled veteran. The wife and I have been disabled for over 20 years and while we live an 'active' lifestyle there are things we can't do but we would never think to force others to do them for us.

[Bob Denman]

Thank you for clarifying this important point...

[The Gritz Carlton]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

This might simply be a case of Virginia wanting to keep Golf Carts off of these trails...

.. without fully realizing how that the Cricket is not your typical Golf Cart...

It's been a while since I've looked at their specifications; but I believe that they are just about 32 inches wide, and weigh just a touch over 300 pounds.
The typical Golf Cart weighs about 700 pounds (depending upon it's configuration), and is 47" or 48" wide...


I've got no dog in this fight on either side; but it seems as if more information could be used by everyone.

I think your dog in this fight is your own Cricket, right? While they may be small and cute..smaller than a golf cart, even...they are not approved mobility devices for the handicap and thus, not approved for that use. I think that was the original complaint...defending the use of a Cricket as a mobility device. Maybe I misread it.

[RVMichael]

Originally Posted by The Gritz Carlton

Lots of drama here over why a golf cart isn't considered a mobility scooter. Isn't that your biggest complaint? I'm sure it pissed you off that they wouldn't let her ride a golf cart wherever she wanted to...but...really?? I've never seen a two-seater mobility scooter with a beer cooler rack in the back. But...I have seen people with a legal single-seat, mobility scooter go just about anywhere they wanted to and people kindly opening doors and assisting them any way they could. Go back to the same place and try it again with the appropriate device...life will be much better.

We legally have basically gone anywhere we wanted to in Florida, Georgia and Alabama. it's only Virginia that has massive restrictions. This is in about 62 or 63 different state parks.

According to Virginia law as soon as a motor is put on a wheelchair, then it can't go anywhere in a Virginia State Park except on a special trail. Can't take it to the shower, can't take to take out the trash, can't take it to see friends, can't even take it to the special trail that does allow motorized wheelchair. It must be put on a car and hauled to the trail and unloaded at the trail.

Here's the Federal law that Virginia is not obeying.

Here's the lawsuit Alabama lost

Here's the Florida policy regarding OPDMDs

And here's Georgia (basically wherever a pedestrian can go, the OPDMD can go)

I could go on with state after state allowing OPDMD. It's Virginia who's behind the times.

The thing that has really upset me the most is the lack of caring some folks show towards other folks. It's like we're trying to get laws changed or get tons of things changed. She just wants to view and visit the state parks to a reasonable degree. Nothing drastic, nothing earthshattering, nothing that's going to affect anything. Sheesh.

PS -- I could give you exact Virginia law they quoted me on why they have restricted motorized wheelchairs. It's really not very nice to physically handicapped folks.

[The Gritz Carlton]

Some states are really backwards and don't deserve my attention or money. I have a short list of states I will not travel through. It's sad that we will miss the history and gorgeous sites within these states but their government is of a 3rd world country and the people have elected them...so...they are of a different breed to me as well. Sounds like VA is one of them for you. Get out fast as you can and don't go back. BUT...as you are doing now...let everyone know. Hit em where it hurts...the pocketbook! They have no hearts!

[CaptnJohn]

OP thinks many (most) here are uncaring. As a disabled person I saw none of that. Mostly people are being understanding and realistic. Most see an unrealistic entitlement desire.
Gritz, there are 36 states I visit. The rest do not honor my CCP. I'll not rant about how unfair they are, adapt and overcome.

[Bob Denman]

This might sound uncaring; but that's not my intent.
You can always "vote with your wallet", and let those States know exactly why you won't waste a dime in them...

[RVMichael]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

This might sound uncaring; but that's not my intent.
You can always "vote with your wallet", and let those States know exactly why you won't waste a dime in them...

My grandchildren, daughter, and son in law live in Virginia. What I think we'll do is good old fashioned Thoreau peaceful civil disobedience. We'll hopefully get a ticket and then just let the courts take care of it.

[RVMichael]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

OP thinks many (most) here are uncaring. As a disabled person I saw none of that. Mostly people are being understanding and realistic. Most see an unrealistic entitlement desire.
Gritz, there are 36 states I visit. The rest do not honor my CCP. I'll not rant about how unfair they are, adapt and overcome.

When the situation is explained 99.9% are indeed compassionate. We have educated a fair number of rangers. However, the inolerance of Virginia's laws cannot be tolerated. I wouldn't be so adamant if I hadn't seen how easy it is to implement OPDMDs in Florida and other states. Maybe my tolerance level has been lowered because my own brothers wanted to put my high functioning mentally handicapped sister into a place "with her own kind" and that really frosted me. I will work on my tolerance of the intolerant.

[Bob Denman]

Originally Posted by RVMichael

My grandchildren, daughter, and son in law live in Virginia. What I think we'll do is good old fashioned Thoreau peaceful civil disobedience. We'll hopefully get a ticket and then just let the courts take care of it.

Rather than civil disobedience: why not just make yourselves a pair of major pains in the butt at these places?
Ask to have Park Personnel transport you both? After all: they're the ones who said that the Cricket isn't allowed...
Throw some Federal Laws at them, and watch them squirm...

[fhenn]

This thread has run it course, time to move on

[RVMichael]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Rather than civil disobedience: why not just make yourselves a pair of major pains in the butt at these places?
Ask to have Park Personnel transport you both? After all: they're the ones who said that the Cricket isn't allowed...
Throw some Federal Laws at them, and watch them squirm...

The park manager was very nice and was on our side after learning more. It's just the laws he is forced to enforce.

[RVMichael]

Originally Posted by fhenn

This thread has run it course, time to move on

I am not sure why. I am still looking for solutions and more options.

[RVMichael]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

Reasonable accommodation does not include violating safety for the handicapped or general public.

































































Reasonable accommodation does not include putting the handicapped or general public in an unsafe situation. VA has determined what they believe is safe to use. VA lawyers get paid no matter what they do so it can go all the way. VA will not change their mind to accommodate 1 person no matter how entitled they feel when there are alternatives. The decision of scooter was made without enough research.

Alabama did and my wife and I benefit from his actions. Maybe somebody will benefit from our actions. So far Virginia is the only state that has the restriction so I am thinking our choice ain't that bad. Haven't seen any mishaps with OPDMDs anywhere.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by RVMichael

....cut....

According to the Federal ADA law, this is a mobility scooter and was designed for this purpose. .....cut.....

I suppose “it can be” a mobility scooter under certain circumstances, yet I have never seen a Cricket or anything similar at a mall or football game where wheelchairs and personal scooters are common. Laws must therefore differentiate and limit their use in other places as well.

I’m not disabled but feel I could ride in a wheelchair or mobility scooter most places even without a placard. Lots of people temporarily limited by a broken leg or other injury can use a wheelchair just about anywhere. Not so a Cricket.

I do care. And I’m the most reasonable person I know.

After reading the entire thread again, the same arguments would apply if you tried to drive a Cricket into a mall or football stadium. She would benefit from greater access. No one else would likely suffer. It would bring her joy. Etc... But I doubt that’s enough of an argument.

You seem to have taken the position that a Cricket is a mobility scooter and should therefore have no limitations on where it can go. You’re asking for a blank check. I’m sure to you it seems black and white, but to those of us who weren’t there, don’t know the park, and are not disabled, it’s not so easy. The state of Virginia might also have excellent reasons why Crickets shouldn’t be allowed, but they are not here to represent their side.

I do care, but believe in the saying that no matter how thin you slice an issue, there are always too sides. As long as it’s legal to limit use of Crickets in malls and stadiums, it “may” be legal in other places also. I guess courts will have to decide.

Good luck, and wish you and your wife well.

[Muggs]

Interesting thread. While neither of us are using a handicapped placard, I sympathise. We recently returned from WDW after pushing 10 year old with a cast in light transport chair. The accomodation for this was impressive though grandson is concerned about wife and I ability to walk great distances.

We both would easily qualify for placards we chose not to at this time as we have trouble admitting we are almost dinosaurs.

There are places even in Flrida where ADA access is limited. This is because accomodation would be unreasonable in safety.

We stay away from places that require more walking than we are capable of. Maybe some day we will get over watching people abuse system and not wanting to be associated with them. The abusers do not help those with genuine need.

Hate to see OP have to deal with Virginia State stuff. Maybe the use of cricket is base issue? I am considering getting one to get around at track. Track officials consider them a compact golf cart.

[Bob Denman]

The horse has been more than "well-tenderized" by now...

http://www.thorforums.com/forums/att...1&d=1571751514