What a climb

[The_Breeze]

Phoenix to Flagstaff. I thought the V10 may let me down. She made it but it really didn't look that bad sitting in the driver seat. 43-45 up some of the 'hills', towing a 3500lb toad. I can't help but wonder if I should take her into the higher country. Old girl may not make it. 2017 with 18k+ miles. There may be a diesel pusher in my future. Not whining. Making an observation.

[Judge]

A Super C will purr right up and down the biggest hills. I have a 2020 Magnitude SV35 and the 6.7 Power Stroke goes up and down hills around 2000 RPM’s without shifting. [emoji106]

[Pete'sMH]

I’ve had my 6.8L class A up to 10,000 ft + several times. It’s fine. A very few long pulls and I’m seriously in the truck lane. But it’s not often and I’m very happy with it.

[TurnerFam]

yes, agreed, as I don't understand why some feel that 'just because' they could only 'climb' up the mountain at 45 that it's somehow dismantling their manhood... RVs aren't race cars. If it gets you there, it got you there.

[ducksface]

We were in Flagstaff today.
Joannes
Michael's
No crowd.
Easy.

Home depot?
Not a single open parking spot.
We passed that up.

The 17 is as bad as it gets slope wise.
You'll do fine everywhere else.
We go through Prescott across the 17 to Payson and then to Phoenix just to miss that horrible 17.
Im surprised there wasn't a total halt to traffic.
Between wrecks and brush fires the 17 always sucks.

[EA37TS]

Food for Thought

Something to keep in mind is that some, in fact quite a few, of the diesel pushers out there have the same horsepower as the Ford V10. They might have a little more torque but the HP is the same. The biggest difference is the diesel will pull the hills at lower RPM and maybe a little quieter, but a lot of them will only pull the same hills at the same speed. My Challenger on the F53 had 362 HP at 4250 RPM and 450 lbft of torque at 3250 RPM.

A Palazzo with the 340HP Cummins may have it in the hills with 700 lbft of torque but the F53 will take it on the flat grounds with the 362 HP V10. Higher torque basically allows climbing the hills at lower RPM.

There are trade offs so make sure you really know how you will be traveling before jumping into something.

Our Accolade with the 360HP Cummins is right there with the Challenger for HP but has almost double the torque (800 lbft) of the Challenger.

If you start looking at the diesels with 400HP or more you will be starting at 200K or better in price.

[Judge]

Just some real world feedback......

I had a Class C with the V10 and now have a Super C with the 6.7L Diesel PowerStroke.

While the Class C does have plenty of power for towing and most applications there is a night and day difference between how the two perform.

The V10 is louder in the cockpit on the long pulls because 1/4 of the engine is in the cockpit. You can barely have a conversation when it downshifts and is revving at 5000 RPM's for a long stretch, There is also more heat generated thought the floor board. Yes.... you can insulate the dog house, etc.

I went through the Carolina Mountains last week. While not the Colorado mountains there were some steep and winding stretches. Set the cruise control to 55 and turned on the engine break. I almost never had to touch either pedal up or down. It held at 1800 - 2000 without any shifting going up and the engine brake held her steady going down. And with all that we could talk back and forth without having to scream at each other to hear.

I did the 5 Star Tune with the V10 to help with the constant shifting. It did help but it did hurt my fuel economy a little... maybe 1/2 - 1 MPG. I have not touched the PowerStroke.

With my old Outlaw 29H and the Can-Am Spyder in the garage (~1100lbs), I would be lucky to get 7 to 7/12 MPG. With my Magnitude pulling the Spyder on a trailer (now about 1700lbs), I am getting about 10 MPG.... closer to 11 MPG if I keep it around 60.

[Chance]

I agree with TurnerFam that 45 MPH up really steep hills you only encounter occasionally is plenty fast. Even if you could hold 60 MPH it would only save a few minutes, and my time isn’t that valuable. If I wanted a diesel pusher I’d be for other reasons, but not to save 5 or 10 minutes a year crossing the Rockies.

My two cents ....

1) If you want to drive fast up steep hills, the key is greater “actual” power per unit weight. And by actual I mean what the engine can produce at the given elevation and whatever RPMs you limit yourself to. Turbocharged engines don’t lose significant power at elevation, whereas a naturally aspirated gasoline engine can easily lose 25% or more at 7,000 feet, dropping a V10’s 305 HP to under 230 HP. And if you want to keep V10 in the 3,250 RPM range, then it’s closer to 195 HP. Still, for a Class C weighing 14,500 pounds, that’s not all bad. Many larger and heavier diesel pushers have less power for their weight than that, and I’ve passed plenty on steep climbs on I-40 while they were going under 45 MPH.

2) The V10 is practically history unless you’re considering buying a used motorhome or one left on lot from 2020 model year, and the new 7.3L V8 appears much more powerful than V10, so should be used as new baseline for comparison versus diesel options. The performance (as in power) difference between it in lighter Class Cs and heavier diesel pushers should be much less other than requiring more gear shifts. Shifting to adjust RPMs is just part of naturally aspirated gasoline engines in order to get better fuel economy, so if that’s an issue to buyer, get a diesel even if it’s slower up steep grades.


If you’re willing to let transmission downshift as intended, then focus on “actual” power and RV combined weight which is what matters. I’ve passed plenty of diesels with well over 1,000 lb-ft of torque. On steep grades, 500 HP in a 50,000-pound luxury DP is still slow.

[JamieGeek]

For another perspective: There are airport shuttles with the V-10 with 500k miles on them...you're worried about 18k miles?

Our Axis is our 3rd V-10. My prior two were in F-Series (F-250, and F-350 respectively). I traded the F-250 in on the F-350..the 250 had 138,000 miles on it and the V-10 ran as good as new. The 350 had 70+k miles on it when we traded it and the 5th wheel for the Axis.

Our F-250 was a 2000 model year which was almost the worst year for the V-10 (2 valves, restrictive exhaust, low HP) we pulled the 5th wheel through all kinds of hills and "mountains" (yeah ok Tenessee mountains not Colorado mountains, still some pretty steep grades). No issues...

I believe Chance's V-10 has a few miles on it as well...

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

Food for Thought {snip}

Our Accolade with the 360HP Cummins is right there with the Challenger for HP but has almost double the torque (800 lbft) of the Challenger.

If you start looking at the diesels with 400HP or more you will be starting at 200K or better in price.

Total engine torque is useless without the rpm where it is developed. Your B6.7 360 Cummins has the torque rating of 800 ft @1,800 rpm. The current Ford V-10 has a torque rating of 460 ft lbs @ 3,000. If the Ford was geared so that the engine was turning 3,000 rpm and the Ford's output shaft was turning 1,800 rpm, the output shaft would have a torque rating of 3,000/1,800x400= 667 ft lbs. Yes the B6.7 360 has more torque but only about 20% which is along way from double.

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by Judge

Just some real world feedback......

I had a Class C with the V10 and now have a Super C with the 6.7L Diesel PowerStroke.

While the Class C does have plenty of power for towing and most applications there is a night and day difference between how the two perform.

The V10 is louder in the cockpit on the long pulls because 1/4 of the engine is in the cockpit. You can barely have a conversation when it downshifts and is revving at 5000 RPM's for a long stretch, There is also more heat generated thought the floor board. Yes.... you can insulate the dog house, etc.

I went through the Carolina Mountains last week. While not the Colorado mountains there were some steep and winding stretches. Set the cruise control to 55 and turned on the engine break. I almost never had to touch either pedal up or down. It held at 1800 - 2000 without any shifting going up and the engine brake held her steady going down. And with all that we could talk back and forth without having to scream at each other to hear.

I did the 5 Star Tune with the V10 to help with the constant shifting. It did help but it did hurt my fuel economy a little... maybe 1/2 - 1 MPG. I have not touched the PowerStroke.

With my old Outlaw 29H and the Can-Am Spyder in the garage (~1100lbs), I would be lucky to get 7 to 7/12 MPG. With my Magnitude pulling the Spyder on a trailer (now about 1700lbs), I am getting about 10 MPG.... closer to 11 MPG if I keep it around 60.

There is very little reason to let a V10 engine run at 5,000 rpm unless you just like to listen to it work. Just slow down a little and keep it around 4,200 rpm and it will get you there just fine. I don’t think anyone would disagree that there are coaches and power trains available that work “better” but for the money you can’t beat a Ford gas coach. If the new ones are better than the old ones so much the better. But the 6.8 will surely get the job done just as it has for years.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by TurnerFam

yes, agreed, as I don't understand why some feel that 'just because' they could only 'climb' up the mountain at 45 that it's somehow dismantling their manhood... RVs aren't race cars. If it gets you there, it got you there.

You had to go there, right? LOL. No worries, it's all good.

Seriously, the only thing that bothered me was there were times when she dropped so low she was tacking 4g. It's a 4.8g motor so that was getting pretty close. I could use jake brake once in while.

I was just wondering if I'll make up some of the steeper grades headed north. I made it to Page and took 89 instead of 89A. She was fine. Not sure what was different. FI is not supposed to be affected by altitude changes so I wonder if the MAF sensor was acting up or the computer 'got confused'

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by Chance

cut...
If you’re willing to let transmission downshift as intended, then focus on “actual” power and RV combined weight which is what matters. I’ve passed plenty of diesels with well over 1,000 lb-ft of torque. On steep grades, 500 HP in a 50,000-pound luxury DP is still slow.

I appreciate your input. Points to Ponder. Thanks.

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by The_Breeze

You had to go there, right? LOL. No worries, it's all good.

Seriously, the only thing that bothered me was there were times when she dropped so low she was tacking 4g. It's a 4.8g motor so that was getting pretty close. I could use jake brake once in while.

I was just wondering if I'll make up some of the steeper grades headed north. I made it to Page and took 89 instead of 89A. She was fine. Not sure what was different. FI is not supposed to be affected by altitude changes so I wonder if the MAF sensor was acting up or the computer 'got confused'

Fuel injection will adjust for altitude in that it will keep the mixture correct in the less dense air but it can’t replace the missing oxygen. There’s less oxygen in the thin air and the FI will reduce the fuel to match but the bottom line is less power. But not to worry you’ll be fine. Really.

[ducksface]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...T6qtkrV9gGIKLh

We pulled this at 60 to 65mph on the straights.
Not a problem at all.
Almost 11,000ft.
We did it twice last year.

[99dart]

Originally Posted by Judge

Just some real world feedback......

I had a Class C with the V10 and now have a Super C with the 6.7L Diesel PowerStroke.

While the Class C does have plenty of power for towing and most applications there is a night and day difference between how the two perform.

The V10 is louder in the cockpit on the long pulls because 1/4 of the engine is in the cockpit. You can barely have a conversation when it downshifts and is revving at 5000 RPM's for a long stretch, There is also more heat generated thought the floor board. Yes.... you can insulate the dog house, etc.

I went through the Carolina Mountains last week. While not the Colorado mountains there were some steep and winding stretches. Set the cruise control to 55 and turned on the engine break. I almost never had to touch either pedal up or down. It held at 1800 - 2000 without any shifting going up and the engine brake held her steady going down. And with all that we could talk back and forth without having to scream at each other to hear.

I did the 5 Star Tune with the V10 to help with the constant shifting. It did help but it did hurt my fuel economy a little... maybe 1/2 - 1 MPG. I have not touched the PowerStroke.

With my old Outlaw 29H and the Can-Am Spyder in the garage (~1100lbs), I would be lucky to get 7 to 7/12 MPG. With my Magnitude pulling the Spyder on a trailer (now about 1700lbs), I am getting about 10 MPG.... closer to 11 MPG if I keep it around 60.

That sounds pretty good. On our trip to Yuma we saw between 5.9 - 6.8 with the V10 in the ws31. The new to us 28,000 lb Itasca with 6.7 Cummins got 8 -8.5 for the return trip. Plus, it is very quiet, easy to talk.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

There is very little reason to let a V10 engine run at 5,000 rpm unless you just like to listen to it work. Just slow down a little and keep it around 4,200 rpm and it will get you there just fine. I don’t think anyone would disagree that there are coaches and power trains available that work “better” but for the money you can’t beat a Ford gas coach. If the new ones are better than the old ones so much the better. But the 6.8 will surely get the job done just as it has for years.

So I rounded up..... more like 4600 with a heavy load and peaking at 5000 when downshifting. Whether, 4200, 4600 or 5000...... still a night and day difference in the cab background noise and heat generation of the V10 compared to the Super C Diesel.

I'm not discounting the reliability of the V10. It is a solid platform. But there are significant differences in overall performance when you look at a Class C motorhome that is over 30' and a weight of 14,000 - 19,000lbs. And yes..... the price is different too.

Besides the drivetrain performance differences there is a substantial difference in handling and ride quality.

I had to put to make $1500 in suspension upgrades in the Class C (I did the labor.... sway bars, steering stabilizer, Sumo springs) to get it to handle and ride so it was not a white knuckle experience. Even with those upgrades about 6 - 8 hours was as much as you would want to drive it without feeling worn out.

I ended driving over 11 hours in the Super C yesterday. I always thought 10 hours would be the absolute max in perfect conditions. But with good weather and traffic, over 11 hours was relatively easy and I did not feel worn out. And the best part is I did not have to change one thing on the chassis from stock.

Just providing some real world feedback of a 14,500lb 29' Class C with the V10 on a van chassis and a 35' Super C with the 6.7L Diesel on a truck chassis that is almost 5000lbs heavier.

Knowing what I know now.....

I would never purchase a Class C motorhome over 25 feet on a van chassis. When the manufacturers exceeds 25 feet, they are putting more length and weight than the stock van chassis was designed to handle. You might not be pushing the limits of the drivetrain, but you are pushing the limits of the suspension, tires, etc. and the overall performance of the coach suffers as a result.

[Lloyd]

Originally Posted by Judge

Knowing what I know now.....

I would never purchase a Class C motorhome over 25 feet on a van chassis. When the manufacturers exceeds 25 feet, they are putting more length and weight than the stock van chassis was designed to handle. You might not be pushing the limits of the drivetrain, but you are pushing the limits of the suspension, tires, etc. and the overall performance of the coach suffers as a result.

I totally agree!! I have been preaching just that statement for years.
It doesn't just stop with the Class C either. The Class A can be included.

[Bob Denman]

If you really want to get up those pesky mountains faster: get yourself the right
car and driver!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZlcRezBFXA

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

If you really want to get up those pesky mountains faster: get yourself the right
car and driver!

LOL. But what happens when I reach the summit? How do I deploy the wings?????