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Old 05-10-2016, 06:15 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by aa9zz View Post
My diesel Sprinter was not expensive to keep up. I used an area Freightliner service/sales shop and had to do little more than change the oil. I got 22 MPG and was able to leave the engine running to keep the inside cool when I went into restaurants or to keep my two dogs cool. Just do not go to a Mercedes dealer to have work done.

If given the opportunity again, I would definitely take the diesel over gas.

What I did not like about the small unit was the size of the holding tanks. I could not stay two nights in a camping area unless it had full service or I moved out to dump.

What my wife did not like about the Sprinter was there was no full time bed. We traded for the Axis, for a large part, so that she would not have to take the bed down each day.

Neither of us liked the bathroom. It was very much like an airline bathroom, but with a shower.

A positive of having a class B first is that we still have empty storage bins. Small space living is an art. Remember, with a Sprinter there is no outside storage. We used a 2X5 foot tray in the hitch.

Phil
It was a tough decision when I was deciding on going with a Sprinter. I was and still am afraid of the Sprinter and the cost of ownership. However, after driving all of the current chassis options on the market, it was hard to not choose the Sprinter.

The shower in the CS Adventurous is not too bad, I actually prefer it over the Axis 24.1 shower. I do miss the outside storage of the Axis.

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Old 05-10-2016, 06:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
That's the one big advantage Sprinters have over ProMaster and Transit vans. My preference would be to stay with gasoline though.
I really wanted a gasoline engine but the ProMaster had a low tow rating. However, the biggest problem we had with the ProMaster was the front cab. The steering wheel was not adjustable. Also, the foot well is very shallow and my wife and I have long legs which made for a cramped drive.
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Old 05-10-2016, 06:30 PM   #43
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I think the decision was made by my wife. She likes the look and size of the Axis. I sold my Airstream just a week before a scheduled vacation trip to the coast. She said "I like the Axis and want to take it". I guess it was, a happy wife", etc.

I think I too was taken by the new style and new size and just gave it a try. Since then I have retired and she will soon and we now want a 32-34 multi slide unit so we can snow bird for a few seasons. I don't know if that one will be a diesel or not.


Phil
We would also move up to a lager size with slides if we were going to snow bird. I don't foresee us ever going that rout.
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:10 PM   #44
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Chance,
What would be your preferred exterior dimensions for the type of motorhome you would like to see produced?
Anywhere between the little Hymer and a Winnebago Reyo would be great. The Hymer's size is nearly perfect as an oversized van.



The Hymer is 87.4 inches wide. The Reyo is 90 inches. Axis for reference is 94 inches.

Hymer is 23 feet long. Reyo is 25'-5". Axis is 25'-6" to 27'.

Hymer is under 9'-6" tall. Reyo is 10'-9". Axis is 11'-3".

Hymer is 7,700 pounds GVWR. Reyo is 11,000 pounds. Axis 12,500 pounds.



The Hymer is built on Fiat Ducato chassis, but the design could be adapted to the single-rear-wheel E-350 stripped chassis Ford has made previously. Combined with upcoming more-efficient V8 and 6-speed transmission, 12 MPG or higher would be easy to achieve. I have little doubt of that being possible with proper engineering.

For us the perfect size means being able to pull into many standard parking spots. Plus I'd want the dimensions and weight distribution to be inherently stable to drive. I would bet the little Hymer doesn't need suspension "upgrades" to make it drive correctly.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:14 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
Anywhere between the little Hymer and a Winnebago Reyo would be great. The Hymer's size is nearly perfect as an oversized van.



The Hymer is 87.4 inches wide. The Reyo is 90 inches. Axis for reference is 94 inches.

Hymer is 23 feet long. Reyo is 25'-5". Axis is 25'-6" to 27'.

Hymer is under 9'-6" tall. Reyo is 10'-9". Axis is 11'-3".

Hymer is 7,700 pounds GVWR. Reyo is 11,000 pounds. Axis 12,500 pounds.



The Hymer is built on Fiat Ducato chassis, but the design could be adapted to the single-rear-wheel E-350 stripped chassis Ford has made previously. Combined with upcoming more-efficient V8 and 6-speed transmission, 12 MPG or higher would be easy to achieve. I have little doubt of that being possible with proper engineering.

For us the perfect size means being able to pull into many standard parking spots. Plus I'd want the dimensions and weight distribution to be inherently stable to drive. I would bet the little Hymer doesn't need suspension "upgrades" to make it drive correctly.
Yes, that would make for a great compromise for an all around coach. The length could be just a little bit long for some spots based on my experience with my current Sprinter but I have made it work.

I have often wondered how those European motorhomes drove. Some of the engines seemed under powered and some of the chassis seemed to small for the size of the motorhome. My wife has been there several times TDY and she said their roads are small. Maybe they do not need much power over there. I do like some of their interior ideas however, some of them seem to cram too many seats in a small space.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:34 PM   #46
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Yes, that would make for a great compromise for an all around coach. The length could be just a little bit long for some spots based on my experience with my current Sprinter but I have made it work.

I have often wondered how those European motorhomes drove. Some of the engines seemed under powered and some of the chassis seemed to small for the size of the motorhome. My wife has been there several times TDY and she said their roads are small. Maybe they do not need much power over there. I do like some of their interior ideas however, some of them seem to cram too many seats in a small space.
We've made parking work too. My first RV was a Class C around 23- to 24-feet long built on Ford E-350 with 158-inch wheelbase. I could usually find parking just about anywhere I needed by backing the rear end over grass or other unused area.

As to power, or lack thereof, let's keep in mind that to have same acceleration and or hill-climbing performance, you only need roughly the same power in proportion to weight.

If a 362 HP Ford V10 can get the job done on a 16,000-pound motorhome pulling a 4,000-pound toad (20,000-pounds combined, with many on this forum doing more than that with their V10), then how much power do we really need for a 10,000-pound RV? Half as much? Less than 200 HP?

That's why a measly 188 HP from a Sprinter V6 diesel feels adequate in small motorhomes.
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:15 PM   #47
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Interesting discussion. Chance, have you looked at Born Free? They have a new 24' Reign on a Mercedes chassis with no slide outs and twin beds. Born Free has a solid quality reputation, and have models with and models without slides.

When I looked at the Hymer at the Tampa RV show, I was wondering about the challenges of getting repair parts for them. And, what kind of dealer network could they have?
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:49 AM   #48
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We've made parking work too. My first RV was a Class C around 23- to 24-feet long built on Ford E-350 with 158-inch wheelbase. I could usually find parking just about anywhere I needed by backing the rear end over grass or other unused area.

As to power, or lack thereof, let's keep in mind that to have same acceleration and or hill-climbing performance, you only need roughly the same power in proportion to weight.

If a 362 HP Ford V10 can get the job done on a 16,000-pound motorhome pulling a 4,000-pound toad (20,000-pounds combined, with many on this forum doing more than that with their V10), then how much power do we really need for a 10,000-pound RV? Half as much? Less than 200 HP?

That's why a measly 188 HP from a Sprinter V6 diesel feels adequate in small motorhomes.
I was really amazed by the acceleration of the Sprinter. You can really tell when the turbo kicks in. Without the turbo the engine really falls flat.
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:41 AM   #49
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Interesting discussion. Chance, have you looked at Born Free? They have a new 24' Reign on a Mercedes chassis with no slide outs and twin beds. Born Free has a solid quality reputation, and have models with and models without slides.

When I looked at the Hymer at the Tampa RV show, I was wondering about the challenges of getting repair parts for them. And, what kind of dealer network could they have?
I just checked out the Born Free Reign, the build quality looks outstanding. The biggest complaint I have with most of the wide body Sprinters is their stability. When I test drove a Winnebago view, it seem to rock from side to side. The Axis was a lot more stable on the road.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:29 AM   #50
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Check out the Freedom line too, can get it built on E-Series, F-Series, or Dodge chassis...nice!
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:59 AM   #51
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We looked at Born Free for the first time about 20 years ago, and they seem to be optimized for couples only. That theme appears to remain. If our goal is to travel and sleep with two others, or have forward-facing seats, we can pretty much get the same or more in a custom-designed van like a Sportsmobile. That was our take anyway.

Born Free are well built though, and seem to hold up better than most motorhomes.
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:17 PM   #52
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I was really amazed by the acceleration of the Sprinter. You can really tell when the turbo kicks in. Without the turbo the engine really falls flat.
Sounds like a great engine. That 3-liter diesel provides acceleration from 0 to 60 MPH in 23 seconds (in a 10,240-pound Reyo motorhome) which confirms it's not slow. And it reportedly got 17.3 MPG, which is also impressive.

The smaller and lighter Hymer pictured above probably gets over 20 MPG with its 4-cylinder diesel and 6-speed automated manual. Performance should be about the same or better than the Reyo's based on power-to-weight ratio.

Itasca Reyo 25R Sprinter Review
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:41 PM   #53
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This forum thread is very interesting to me. We currently own a 2000 Dodge Xplorer Class B van. Have had it for 14 years. It only has 93,000 miles on it. We are retiring now and looking at something with more living space. Our wet bath is extremely small, too.

....cut.....
Xplorer vans of the past are some of my earliest RV memories. I recall seeing one built in the 60s or 70s that had a drop floor area just behind the passenger seat -- by the entry door.

The van was only like 7 feet tall but had enough head room for a 6-foot person to stand up straight in a small area in front of stove.

TransVans of the same time period also used the same idea of a drop floor, but at the very rear of motorhome by entry door.

It's amazing how RVs have changed over the decades.
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:59 PM   #54
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Sounds like a great engine. That 3-liter diesel provides acceleration from 0 to 60 MPH in 23 seconds (in a 10,240-pound Reyo motorhome) which confirms it's not slow. And it reportedly got 17.3 MPG, which is also impressive.

The smaller and lighter Hymer pictured above probably gets over 20 MPG with its 4-cylinder diesel and 6-speed automated manual. Performance should be about the same or better than the Reyo's based on power-to-weight ratio.

Itasca Reyo 25R Sprinter Review
The un-modified van version of the Sprinter feels a littler quicker than 23 seconds.

One of the main complaints I have read from owners of the Reyo was limited occupant and cargo carrying capacity.
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:05 PM   #55
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Check out the Freedom line too, can get it built on E-Series, F-Series, or Dodge chassis...nice!
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One of the advantages the Axis and Vegas has over anything else that is built on the E-Series chassis is the ability to use the front cab as part of the living space. Yes, there are other makes and models that can rotate the seats in the cab but the Axis gives you the ability to stand up in the cab. This is critical in a 25 foot coach...imho.
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Old 05-11-2016, 04:53 PM   #56
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One of the advantages the Axis and Vegas has over anything else that is built on the E-Series chassis is the ability to use the front cab as part of the living space. Yes, there are other makes and models that can rotate the seats in the cab but the Axis gives you the ability to stand up in the cab. This is critical in a 25 foot coach...imho.
We CAN rotate the drivers and shotgun seats when parked. Slide must be extended for the drivers seat to rotate.
Cannot recline the drivers seat, and it is a bit of a challenge to get it rotated, but it can be done.
For additional inside seating...we, also, have a couple inexpensive, lightweight IKEA folding chairs...they serve the purpose well and stow easily.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:16 PM   #57
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The un-modified van version of the Sprinter feels a littler quicker than 23 seconds.

One of the main complaints I have read from owners of the Reyo was limited occupant and cargo carrying capacity.
You are correct on both counts.

MotorHome magazine had done a three-way test between Sprinter Class A, B, and C. The Class B was indeed quicker to 60 MPH in 19 seconds. That's roughly 20% faster.

Because all were limited by the same Sprinter maximum GVWR, the lighter Class B had the highest realistic Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity at 2,300 pounds. By comparisison the heavier Class A Reyo only had 790 pound ROCCC.

When comparing motorhomes on otherwise identical chassis, it's easy to see why it pays big time to keep weight down. In this case much faster acceleratin, better fuel economy, and much higher occupant and cargo capacity.


Winnebago ERA 70X Sprinter Review
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:24 PM   #58
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One of the advantages the Axis and Vegas has over anything else that is built on the E-Series chassis is the ability to use the front cab as part of the living space. Yes, there are other makes and models that can rotate the seats in the cab but the Axis gives you the ability to stand up in the cab. This is critical in a 25 foot coach...imho.
That's the main reason I can see to getting an Axis over a similar-size Class C.

As a point of interest, the first Class A built on E-Series that I'm aware of also had this capability, but did not have the step up to the driving area. Its level floor made it even nicer in my opinion because it integrated the cab area into living area even more so. That motorhome is no longer in production.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:24 PM   #59
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I think you can analyze, re analyze, over analyze till the cows come home (shows my age) at the end of the day you see a unit that will fill most of your needs. Its like looking at houses, you will never find everything you want but when you finally walk into that one house you'll know its right.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:03 PM   #60
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We CAN rotate the drivers and shotgun seats when parked. Slide must be extended for the drivers seat to rotate.
Cannot recline the drivers seat, and it is a bit of a challenge to get it rotated, but it can be done.
For additional inside seating...we, also, have a couple inexpensive, lightweight IKEA folding chairs...they serve the purpose well and stow easily.
I agree, the drivers seat was a pain. We only rotated the drivers seat when we wanted to eat at the table.
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