Battery not powering house

ArrowFlinger · 04-22-2022, 05:37 PM

Long winded description as i tried testing all the combination of things from forum and you-tube posts.

To turn on generator, I do have to have the engine running. I never have enough juice to start it from the coach batteries

When hooked up to shore power or my generator and see them at 13.4v (~14.3 engine running). The battery level indicator in the coach is showing 4 of 4 LED's
But once I unplug or turn off the generator in a very short period of time I have no 12v juice in the coach. If I try to start the generator or extend the slide, I will have no juice in seconds. If I only have the fridge and head on then after after couple of heat cycles not enough juice to run the fan for the heat. Even if I don't have anything turned on within a few hours hour the battery level LED will not light up.

My thought here are that the only juice I am seeing for the LEDs is some reserve in the capacitors of the converter and it is not really pulling from the battery. I did one test that I am confused about the results, which you may have the answer (or confirm my guess). I disconnected the battery (+) side from the 100amp breaker and if I put the voltmeter on the breaker and the negative of the battery I was reading 11.4v. I was expecting zero since that (+) was not hooked up to anything. Is that 11.4 what was left in the capacitors or does that indicate I have a bad ground somewhere? I Did this test with no generator/shore/engine power.

Last fall my batteries fell to 12.3v on that trip. I have charged them with an external charger up to 13.2 and they have held the charge, so they still appear to be good.

This is the third set of batteries. The ones on the rig went dead(so I thought). They had a sticker for a month before I bought it. I replaced them and next set went dead (so i thought - would not charge above 12.7 (shore power) and would fall to 12.4 real quick). Swapped them and the same thing happened after running them out watching a football game. So yes I could have discharged them too low to slightly damage them. However a couple of weeks ago I bought a new external charger and charged them up. They are still reading 13.04 after 2 weeks.

I tested the AC side of the box with the generator running and all breakers had 120v (ground & neutral)
The DC side all had 13.4v (note battery was still disconnected)
Turned off the generator hooked up battery(battery at 13.1v), but at the box after I took the RV out of "store mode", the DC side at the box was showing 9.8v, but the battery still showed 13+.
Turned the Generator back on reads 13.4
Turned generator off, but this time it still showed high 12v. Until i pulled the slide in about 12 inches and all lights went out.
At this point, hitting the store/"USE" button did nothing,even though my batteries still read 13+
So to me it seems the battery is not really feeding back into the coach. Is Battery to House a different path vs. charger to

Today I went out for an additional test. Battery was down to 12.8 and I could not get the "use" button to work. I then put the chasis in the run (not start) and then I was able to engage the "use" button and get lights. I removed the key and started testing the voltage at the box and it was reading 12.12 not 12.7-12.8 that i was seeing at the house batteries. My chasis battery was just a hair above the 12.12. I disconnected the house batteries and everything went out, as expected. Put the chasis back in "run" position to get the lights back on without a house battery connected. The box was reading high 12's. Removed the key and watched the box readings slowly drop until lights and radio went out around 12.4 and the reading dropped to < 1v

Bill Johnson · 04-22-2022, 06:12 PM

Try putting your meter on the battery and if it reads 12.6 or more, have someone turn on a load, fridge, or try to start the generator and if it drops to 0 or close to it it sounds like the battery/batteries might be bad or the terminals need cleaning. I had a camping friend his mother had a light that wouldn't turn on. He showed me the 120 volts but when he flipped the switch the voltage went to zero. The wire was just barely touching with one strand of wire

Bill Johnson · 04-22-2022, 06:21 PM

I noticed you had a post of your batteries draining about 2 years ago did you find the problem. I have a 2021 Ace 33.1. So I don't have an inverter when I said to try the fridge unless you have a 12volt fridge that won't work, but you could try the furnace fan. If your batteries have been drained down low too many times they may be bad

OldWEB · 04-22-2022, 09:19 PM

I am going to try to answer, inside of your quoted post, long-winded is right!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowFlinger

Long winded description as i tried testing all the combination of things from forum and you-tube posts.

To turn on generator, I do have to have the engine running. I never have enough juice to start it from the coach batteries
- Either the batts are uncharged, won't hold a charge or there is/are dirty connections.

When hooked up to shore power or my generator and see them at 13.4v (~14.3 engine running).
Normal converter (alternator) output voltage.

The battery level indicator in the coach is showing 4 of 4 LED's
But once I unplug or turn off the generator in a very short period of time I have no 12v juice in the coach. If I try to start the generator or extend the slide, I will have no juice in seconds. If I only have the fridge and head on then after after couple of heat cycles not enough juice to run the fan for the heat. Even if I don't have anything turned on within a few hours hour the battery level LED will not light up.

Again, this indicates low charge or batteries are toast.

My thought here are that the only juice I am seeing for the LEDs is some reserve in the capacitors of the converter and it is not really pulling from the battery. I did one test that I am confused about the results, which you may have the answer (or confirm my guess). I disconnected the battery (+) side from the 100amp breaker and if I put the voltmeter on the breaker (which side? Battery or coach?) and the negative of the battery I was reading 11.4v. I was expecting zero since that (+) was not hooked up to anything. Is that 11.4 what was left in the capacitors or does that indicate I have a bad ground somewhere? I Did this test with no generator/shore/engine power.

If you were on the coach side, voltage may "trickle" in from the chassis battery thru the "Emerg Start relay" or as you say, the caps in the inverter. If it was on the "open" side of the breaker, maybe the breaker has fouled and any carbon inside could give a reading from the connected battery, you never know.

Last fall my batteries fell to 12.3v on that trip. I have charged them with an external charger up to 13.2 and they have held the charge, so they still appear to be good.

Agreed, but a proper battery load test would confirm.

This is the third set of batteries. The ones on the rig went dead(so I thought). They had a sticker for a month before I bought it. I replaced them and next set went dead (so i thought - would not charge above 12.7 (shore power) and would fall to 12.4 real quick). 12.4V is 'normal' at rest voltage for a LA battery. Swapped them and the same thing happened after running them out watching a football game. So yes I could have discharged them too low to slightly damage them. However a couple of weeks ago I bought a new external charger and charged them up. They are still reading 13.04 after 2 weeks. With charger "On" or "Off"? "On" I would guess.

I tested the AC side of the box with the generator running and all breakers had 120v (ground & neutral)
The DC side all had 13.4v (note battery was still disconnected) Now that is the normal converter output.
Turned off the generator hooked up battery(battery at 13.1v), but at the box after I took the RV out of "store mode", the DC side at the box was showing 9.8v, but the battery still showed 13+. There are two "+" points in the 'box' if it is the converter/fuse box you refer to. There is a +VCC - from the converter output and a "POS" that goes to the battery bank. There are also TWO fuses (40 amp?) side-by-each and these need to be checked, they connect the converter to the coach (house) battery bank.
Turned the Generator back on reads 13.4
Turned generator off, but this time it still showed high 12v. Until i pulled the slide in about 12 inches and all lights went out.
At this point, hitting the store/"USE" button did nothing,even though my batteries still read 13+
So to me it seems the battery is not really feeding back into the coach. Is Battery to House a different path vs. charger to

Today I went out for an additional test. Battery was down to 12.8 and I could not get the "use" button to work. I then put the chasis in the run (not start) and then I was able to engage the "use" button and get lights. I removed the key and started testing the voltage at the box and it was reading 12.12 not 12.7-12.8 that i was seeing at the house batteries. My chasis battery was just a hair above the 12.12. I disconnected the house batteries and everything went out, as expected. Put the chasis back in "run" position to get the lights back on without a house battery connected. The box was reading high 12's. Removed the key and watched the box readings slowly drop until lights and radio went out around 12.4 and the reading dropped to < 1v

Whew!!! More to follow!

OldWEB · 04-22-2022, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArrowFlinger

<snipped>

Turned the Generator back on reads 13.4 Converter output, battery... maybe?
Turned generator off, but this time it still showed high 12v. Until i pulled the slide in about 12 inches and all lights went out. This could indicate bad connections, bad Use/Store relay contacts or bad battery.
At this point, hitting the store/"USE" button did nothing,even though my batteries still read 13+ Are you able to find and check the position or test the Use/Store relay?
So to me it seems the battery is not really feeding back into the coach. Is Battery to House a different path vs. charger to

Those two fuses (40A) in the DC fuse panel need to be checked as do ALL battery connections, the ground to the frame, all cable connections....

Today I went out for an additional test. Battery was down to 12.8 and I could not get the "use" button to work. I then put the chasis in the run (not start) (confused

)and then I was able to engage the "use" button and get lights. I removed the key why? and started testing the voltage at the box and it was reading 12.12 not 12.7-12.8 that i was seeing at the house batteries. (Shore power on or off?) My chasis battery was just a hair above the 12.12. (shore power on or off?) I disconnected the house batteries and everything went out, as expected. Put the chasis back in "run" position (confused again

) to get the lights back on without a house battery connected. (Shore power on or off?

) The box was reading high 12's. Removed the key (???) and watched the box readings slowly drop until lights and radio went out around 12.4 and the reading dropped to < 1v

Do you have a "Emergency Start" switch on your dash?

Do you have a BIM, BIRD or a BCC - if not known, read up on their operation.
Do you have a chassis disconnect switch? Same as the Use/Store switch and do you know where the relays are for these? (Refer to BIM-BIRD-BCC question)

ArrowFlinger · 04-23-2022, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Johnson

I noticed you had a post of your batteries draining about 2 years ago did you find the problem. I have a 2021 Ace 33.1. So I don't have an inverter when I said to try the fridge unless you have a 12volt fridge that won't work, but you could try the furnace fan. If your batteries have been drained down low too many times they may be bad

No Inverter, same coach, same issue. 3rd set of batteries. But they charged up fine to 13+ on a new charger in my garage. 2 weeks after charge still at 12.8, so I don't think I toasted the batteries.

I will try and answer your questions, but quoting your message is only quoting the outer message no my quoted message with your response, so i am going to cut and paste each question with an answer

- Either the batts are uncharged, won't hold a charge or there is/are dirty connections.

Batteries charged, nuts and post clean. Tomorrow I'll take a file to the connector, but I doubt this is the issue

Normal converter (alternator) output voltage.

Again, this indicates low charge or batteries are toast.
Batteries still read 12.8v, so not dead. And note that i get the same behavior when I disconnected the battery--later test/notes

(which side? Battery or coach?)
If you were on the coach side, voltage may "trickle" in from the chassis battery thru the "Emerg Start relay" or as you say, the caps in the inverter. If it was on the "open" side of the breaker, maybe the breaker has fouled and any carbon inside could give a reading from the connected battery, you never know.
Coach Side

Agreed, but a proper battery load test would confirm.
I will take them to Autozone tomorrow

With charger "On" or "Off"? "On" I would guess.
This is with the charger disconnected. after 2 weeks the battery is still at 12.8

There are two "+" points in the 'box' if it is the converter/fuse box you refer to. There is a +VCC - from the converter output and a "POS" that goes to the battery bank. There are also TWO fuses (40 amp?) side-by-each and these need to be checked, they connect the converter to the coach (house) battery bank.
This was a weird one as it only happened once. All fuse are good. when generator is on I get 13.4v going into fuse, coming out and at the dc connectors for each circuit. 40a fuses are good too

Converter output, battery... maybe?
yep 13.4 expected generator dc output

This could indicate bad connections, bad Use/Store relay contacts or bad battery.
I think connections are good, but relay is my leading guess.

Are you able to find and check the position or test the Use/Store relay?
There are so many relay, solinoid switches and breaker, i am not sure which one would be for the use/store. Is this one of the ones that would be behind the circuit board in the BCC? I checked the manual breaker (just found out about that one today) in the BCC and it was not tripped, but that does not mean that it is still good. I wish my coach had the manual dial use store vs the fake switch

Those two fuses (40A) in the DC fuse panel need to be checked as do ALL battery connections, the ground to the frame, all cable connections....

40a are good. I will try and track down all connections and tighten down

(confused )
I'm confused too as to why it would not activate until i had chasis juice running into the system.

Removed the why?
I wanted todays test to be off of house batteries and did not want chasis power coming in.

(Shore power on or off?)
Not hooked up to shore power, generator off, and engine off.

Put the chasis back in "run" position (confused again )
This was a final test to see voltage values with no house battery connected to compare to when they were connected

(Shore power on or off? )
the only power provided at this time would be from the chasis side (key in run position

Removed the key (???)
To remove all power sources

Do you have a "Emergency Start" switch on your dash?
Yes
Do you have a BIM, BIRD or a BCC - if not known, read up on their operation. BCC
Do you have a chassis disconnect switch? Same as the Use/Store switch and do you know where the relays are for these? (Refer to BIM-BIRD-BCC question)I have the house battery disconnect switch.
Is there another one for the chassis?

Thanks for the input

OldWEB · 04-23-2022, 01:31 PM

Wow! Yes, it makes it difficult when I answered inside your quote! So sorry!

First, do not take a file to the crimp-on cable connectors, these are typically tin plated copper, a wire brush is all that is needed. Once you have exposed the copper, blue corrosion likes to form, not good. The round battery post style are lead and need any layer of corrosion removed to the shiny lead on the connector and the post, it needs to be shiny lead, dull lead is still corrosion. Once clean, a thin layer of anti-ox grease or whatever you want... BIG debates on this one.

Please provide the model of BCC and read up on what you have. VERY good info here. Find yer model under "Our Products". Generally the House, Interconnection (Emerg Start/Charge) and Chassis solenoids are located here, depending on your model. Ensure the connections are tight on the BCC too... but be CAREFUL! A lot of DC here! There are tests that can be done with the BCC to confirm its operation.

(Shore power on or off? )
the only power provided at this time would be from the chasis side (key in run position
"Remove key" or "Run position" - you mean ignition key? Just indicate engine running or not in this instance, that would suggest the alternator charging or not.

Converter output, battery... maybe?
yep 13.4 expected generator dc output
I may be wrong here for your set-up, but the generator only supplies AC power to the converter to charge the house batteries, the same as shore power (SP) does, they both power thru the same AC breaker in the breaker/fuse panel. The generator does not supply a DC output. Older generators did, but I do not think that applies here.

If the generator and/or SP is providing 120VAC, then focus on if the converter is supplying reliable ~13.4VDC in the breaker/fuse panel. Does the converter fan run when the AC is turned on? If you have ~13.4VDC, then turn on all interior DC lights, this will put a good load on the house batteries and the converter fan should run and the converter should still maintain ~13.4VDC.

Then turn off the AC sources and see if the chassis engine alternator is supplying ~14VDC to the same points in the breaker/fuse panel (also confirm at the chassis battery). There is a time delay and it will only charge the house batteries once the chassis battery is charged, so there could be a wait (all this in the BCC manual).

Good luck!

EDIT: Oh, ensure the Chassis and House Disconnects are "ON" or "USE" for these tests... if they are not working, then the BCC manual will help.

Trkyte@msn.com · 04-23-2022, 02:04 PM

Your batteries could still be toast. Take them to a auto zone or such and have them load tested.
I have a motorcycle that always showed 12+ volts but loadtesting it immediately dropped to 2 volts.

ArrowFlinger · 04-23-2022, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldWEB

Wow! Yes, it makes it difficult when I answered inside your quote! So sorry!

First, do not take a file to the crimp-on cable connectors, these are typically tin plated copper, a wire brush is all that is needed. Once you have exposed the copper, blue corrosion likes to form, not good. The round battery post style are lead and need any layer of corrosion removed to the shiny lead on the connector and the post, it needs to be shiny lead, dull lead is still corrosion. Once clean, a thin layer of anti-ox grease or whatever you want... BIG debates on this one.
House battery connections are via the threaded terminal not the lead post, they looked good but will brush the wire connector

Please provide the model of BCC and read up on what you have. VERY good info here. Find yer model under "Our Products". Generally the House, Interconnection (Emerg Start/Charge) and Chassis solenoids are located here, depending on your model. Ensure the connections are tight on the BCC too... but be CAREFUL! A lot of DC here! There are tests that can be done with the BCC to confirm its operation.
I will have to look into this, but todays plans have changed.
I need to run to my kids house to cut down a large tree branch that fell onto the neighbors phone line(not sure if they use it but they called and complained to the city, instead of knocking on the door)

(Shore power on or off? )
the only power provided at this time would be from the chasis side (key in run position
"Remove key" or "Run position" - you mean ignition key? Just indicate engine running or not in this instance, that would suggest the alternator charging or not.
Yes, ignition key. engine not running, just in run position to turn on the the accessories. Note when engine running, I see 14.x, everywhere i saw 13.x with generator running

Converter output, battery... maybe?
yep 13.4 expected generator dc output
I may be wrong here for your set-up, but the generator only supplies AC power to the converter to charge the house batteries, the same as shore power (SP) does, they both power thru the same AC breaker in the breaker/fuse panel. The generator does not supply a DC output. Older generators did, but I do not think that applies here.
Right, 13.4 output from the converter - through the fuses to to the DC board

If the generator and/or SP is providing 120VAC, then focus on if the converter is supplying reliable ~13.4VDC in the breaker/fuse panel. Does the converter fan run when the AC is turned on? If you have ~13.4VDC, then turn on all interior DC lights, this will put a good load on the house batteries and the converter fan should run and the converter should still maintain ~13.4VDC.
Fan wasn't kicking on, but i had little load. 3 LED lights.
I can have a second person run the slides for a load

Then turn off the AC sources and see if the chassis engine alternator is supplying ~14VDC to the same points in the breaker/fuse panel (also confirm at the chassis battery). There is a time delay and it will only charge the house batteries once the chassis battery is charged, so there could be a wait (all this in the BCC manual).
earlier test showed 14v everywhere when engine running

Good luck!

EDIT: Oh, ensure the Chassis and House Disconnects are "ON" or "USE" for these tests... if they are not working, then the BCC manual will help.

Thanks again

ArrowFlinger · 05-17-2022, 03:26 PM

Sorry for the delay. My daughter got married a couple of weekends ago, so i was a bit distracted. I did end up taking it into the shop to get fixed.
The end diagnosis is that there was a bad weld at or near stud the ground cable was connected, which was causing a voltage drop the made it appear that the batteries were dead. Moving the ground cable to a new clean off spot on the frame has resolved that issue. My wiper motor (relay/fuse/resettable fuse whatever you call) kept blowing. Turns out the wiring harness was wore through causing it to short out.

They way overcharged me for the repair, since I had done a lot of the diagnostic work for them. But at least these guys were competent enough to figure it out, where General RV was clueless (actually worked on the RV). You don't have many options when it comes to "house" issues. If I have any chasis issues, I i will take it to the place that works on the local ambulance/firetrucks. My preferred shop does not have a big enough bay for the RV, but they were able to recharge the AC in the lot (guessing at 25% the cost the RV shop would have charged.). Out of curiosity i will ask them what they charge for brakes and AC charge, when i pick it up, so i have a baseline.

Thanks to those that gave all the good input and hope this helps anyone else that has a similar issue

Bill Johnson · 05-17-2022, 09:57 PM

I'm glad you got it fixed. I had a new Jayco a few years ago and I went to clean and paint the rust under the new motorhome and found 2 broken ground studs and I had to re-attach them to the frame. I also found wires hanging everywhere underneath and tied them up so running over something wouldn't catch them and get damaged.

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