Def heater issue

[simidrm]

Originally Posted by roncalderz@gmail.com

Thank you simidrm , I can comprehend some of what you are saying. I crawled under chassis today to look for any visual signs of damage . When you say lines you are talking about wires or harness ? This is way over my head but I try to learn as much as possible so that I might be able to fix it if it happens again.
After talking to Cummings tech today he asked me about temps. It has definitely been cold enough ,8°below , for def to freeze. Daytime temps the last couple of days have been mid 40s.
Tech said it is possible def is still frozen in lines. I read that def lines purge when engine is shut down. Can you confirm that ? At this point I think I will fork out $$$ for Frieghtliner Mobile repair.

Yes what he is saying is true, when you shut down the engine you hear the def pump for about 3-5 minutes as it purges the def from the lines, and when you say harness that is the oem (freightliner)harness that plugs into the def line heaters, the line heaters consist of a small heating element at each end of line and it is kinda like a heat tape that wraps the whole length of the line as well.
Def lines are from 100.00 to 200.00 depending on which line it is.

[simidrm]

Originally Posted by The Gritz Carlton

"...there is nothing in the DEF or Emissions related systems that will suddenly 'STOP' your engine - that is pure bunk. Cummins emissions related systems are not part of your ENGINE, only the emissions. The only related action is due to a low, or lack of, DEF liquid, which can send a signal to the engine to 'derate' it, meaning that it will govern your engine output to a lower mph speed, but has nothing to do with shutting it down or off."


Perhaps my "stop you cold" was an exaggeration...but...ANY issue with DEF will eventually STOP your engine. I was involved in commercial truck sales when this program was first forced on diesels. I've owned a 2011 Duramax since new. 2011 was the first year this was mandated for light trucks. Low fluid, poor quality fluid, failure of the system to regenerate correctly and several other symptoms will give you warnings as to how many more miles you have till empty, how many more miles you have to a forced reduction in speed of 55 MPH, how many more miles you have to a forced reduction in speed of 5 MPH and a final warning of forced no re-start. It's not limited to low or lack off fluid only. Forcing my vehicle to a government chosen reduced speed is a forced penalty any way you look at it. There should be a one-time emergency bypass to get you where you can have it refilled, repaired or replaced. If you were in the middle of nowhere and had an issue other than low or poor quality fluid requiring service by a commercial truck mechanic, it could lead to huge tow charges. It isn't just Cummins...it's every diesel driven vehicle. Caterpillar chose to not install the system and just pay the fine...interesting how they are no longer in the engine business.

You are correct on everything you said,the def and dpf systems are purely epa issues for nox level in exhaust and while in the trucking industry which thor uses the same engines, there are 2 systems in the exhaust you have the dpf (diesel particulate filter) and the def system the dpf handles the capture of soot and the particulates that come out and the def is the reduction of nox (nitrogen oxide) and a fault in either system will eventually derate to 5mph while the dpf system can and will shutdown the engine for its own protection.
I have been to Detroit and Cummins schools and certified for both in aftertreatment and work on these everyday and by far freightliner has the worst breakdown rates for aftertreatment issue's caused by faulty or improper routing of there wiring harness,the big faults with cummins is the problem of idle times causing the exhaust not generating enough heat to keep itself clean,which is when a forced or parked regen is needed.

[roncalderz@gmail.com]

Can DEF expire to the point of no return ?
Is DPF also known as the doser ?
Where would one find replacement def line 1 or 2 specific to my motorhome ?
Purging and cleaning out DEF tank ,$$$ ?

[simidrm]

Originally Posted by roncalderz@gmail.com

Can DEF expire to the point of no return ?
Is DPF also known as the doser ?
Where would one find replacement def line 1 or 2 specific to my motorhome ?
Purging and cleaning out DEF tank ,$$$ ?

The dpf is basically a exhaust filter it is the front section that consist of a doc (diesel oxidation calaylst) and the dpf filter the doc traps the soot and when you regen it turns the soot to ash which is held in the dpf and what no one tells people is that these have to be removed and either cleaned or replaced at a scheduled interval and they are not cheap $800.00 for a reconditioned one.

The doser is a injector that goes into a long tube called the decomp tube it injects the def fluid into the scr system (selective catalyst reduction)

Any cummins dealer can get this all you need is the last 8 digits of the vin number, all freightliner and international dealerships are cummins dealers ,usually international is cheaper on parts which both get from cummins. If you get parts from international dealer you will need the esn (engine serial number) which is found either on the valve cover or the ecm mounted on the left side of engine where all the harness connect to.

[simidrm]

Originally Posted by roncalderz@gmail.com

Can DEF expire to the point of no return ?
Is DPF also known as the doser ?
Where would one find replacement def line 1 or 2 specific to my motorhome ?
Purging and cleaning out DEF tank ,$$$ ?

Def does degrade over time, but that's not too much of a worry.
Unless the def tank is contaminated with anything especially fuel you should never have to clean it out but some of the smaller 6-8 gallon tank have a drain plug in the bottom, and all def systems have a filter for the def fluid which depending on how many miles you have on it you might want to have it replaced while they are doing lines as they have to take the cover off the pump anyway the def filter for cummins is part number uf101 made by fleetgaurd.

[roncalderz@gmail.com]

Problem was DEF heater relay not fuse . Relay was not bad . Four pin relay , one pin not making contact in fuse box
tweaked pins receivers problem solved
All voltage was good in lines 1 and 2.

[simidrm]

Originally Posted by roncalderz@gmail.com

Problem was DEF heater relay not fuse . Relay was not bad . Four pin relay , one pin not making contact in fuse box
tweaked pins receivers problem solved
All voltage was good in lines 1 and 2.

That's good news and by far way cheaper then line replacement.

[Chuck and Mary Ann]

Wow, must be a full moon or something. We picked up our coach (2018 Palazzo with the Cummings engine) today at CW after a bunch of warranty work and other stuff. Turned the key and waited for the pigtail to go out and when it did, the check engine light and low def warning came on. CW does not do engine work I guess! Def tank is full and I mean full both gauges show full as is the actual tank. When I shut the engine off after a 50 minute drive it sounded like a pump running, so I wine to the engine compartment and heard a pump running in the def compartment area but have no idea why. So if anyone has seen this issue before please advise as we were headed out on a 1500 mile run, but not until I get the check engine light off and the def message corrected. Will call Cummings in the am and discuss with them I guess, but any help is appreciated.

[Chuck and Mary Ann]

Got any pictures of where to look or directions to find this relay?

[The Gritz Carlton]

Check the wires/plug connection to the sensor that reads volume of the tank. It could be they knocked it loose somehow. My GMC will show check engine light as well as messages with different DEF issues (low fluid, poor fluid quality, etc.).

[Chuck and Mary Ann]

Thanks Gritz, will look at that today - pretty tight in that compartment and some unique type connection snaps - don't want to break any off.

[roncalderz@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by Chuck and Mary Ann

Thanks Gritz, will look at that today - pretty tight in that compartment and some unique type connection snaps - don't want to break any off.

Call Frieghtliner number that should be somewhere near drivers side , ( decal )
They will walk you through the process of finding fault code. They will also tell you where fuse box is. Mine is above inverter. They will have a longer explanation of what fault code entails.
Ask a lot of questions like , driving coach to Frieghtliner, is it safe to drive at all.
Noise you are hearing maybe def line purging itself. I have learned a lot from this thread , very knowledgeable people here. Good luck Happy Trails.

[roncalderz@gmail.com]

Thank you to all of you for your help with this matter. Still had to pay for the fix but also learned a little bit which is always good. Again Thanks.

[simidrm]

Originally Posted by Chuck and Mary Ann

Wow, must be a full moon or something. We picked up our coach (2018 Palazzo with the Cummings engine) today at CW after a bunch of warranty work and other stuff. Turned the key and waited for the pigtail to go out and when it did, the check engine light and low def warning came on. CW does not do engine work I guess! Def tank is full and I mean full both gauges show full as is the actual tank. When I shut the engine off after a 50 minute drive it sounded like a pump running, so I wine to the engine compartment and heard a pump running in the def compartment area but have no idea why. So if anyone has seen this issue before please advise as we were headed out on a 1500 mile run, but not until I get the check engine light off and the def message corrected. Will call Cummings in the am and discuss with them I guess, but any help is appreciated.

There is a plug for the def tank level sensor and if your looking at the top of the tank where the 2 blue def lines are you should see a black wire going down the back side of tank and about half way down is the plug for tank level, temp, quality sensor and if you keep following those wires they will go into a harness at the def pump, the pump has a metal protective cover to shield it from any debri from the road, and most likely if you look where the wires run into the pump you will find that the wires have rubbed the cover and rotted some of the wires, very common issue with freightliner
or the level sensor in the tank went bad and will usually set a fault code for def level or temp or def quality, either way these systems are designed to warn you with a check engine light when def levels drop to 2% and at 1% the red stop light will come and limit you to 5mph even though the tank is full the engine controller only knows what the sensor tells it.

Do you know how many gallons the tank holds? most likey about 16gal
and that level sensor is about 500.00, but I would check the wiring first as I said freightliners are well known to have wiring issues caused by improper securing or routing of wires causing them to rub against something until they break.

[Chuck and Mary Ann]

Just strange that this would happen while sitting at CW for warranty work and not on the road. We dropped it off a month ago and everything was fine, started it to bring home after reviewing the work and got the Check Engine Light - Low Def warning on the dash panel. Tried using my ODBC-II reader with the adapter and could not get a connection at either port - not recognized message, so this is putting us behind again. I'll check the wires, drain the tank, see if I can clean the sensor and start again - and it looks like rain today - oh the fun I'll have dumping 16 gals of def fluid - I only have so many 5 gallon buckets!

[roncalderz@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by Chuck and Mary Ann

Just strange that this would happen while sitting at CW for warranty work and not on the road. We dropped it off a month ago and everything was fine, started it to bring home after reviewing the work and got the Check Engine Light - Low Def warning on the dash panel. Tried using my ODBC-II reader with the adapter and could not get a connection at either port - not recognized message, so this is putting us behind again. I'll check the wires, drain the tank, see if I can clean the sensor and start again - and it looks like rain today - oh the fun I'll have dumping 16 gals of def fluid - I only have so many 5 gallon buckets!

Welcome to the world of RVs. I went through stuff like this , still going through stuff like this, I had a feeling picking up my Pallazo 34.5 on Friday the 13th was a bad idea. After talking to fellow RVers with the 1/2 million dollar coaches I was told even they go thru this stuff. Alot of it is caused by ruff roads. Constant vibration will loosen up cabinets screws ,wire connections, etc . It is an ongoing job. I felt comfort hearing this from owners of these massive coaches.
Back to your issue. Have you called Freightliner or Cummings yet ? Warranty should handle this , I think you said it was brand new. TransWest has a mobile unit that can fix anything that is possible in the field. Getting Thor to pickup the bill is another issue, how much time do you have ? I am assuming that you have a Freightliner chassis.

[TurnerFam]

...the def tank is not anywhere near 16 gallons, it's only 10 or 12. Also, this is a Cummins issue, as for warranty, not a Thor problem as the chassis comes to them in this capacity, already installed by Freightliner. Cummins warranties 5 years or 50,000 miles for the emissions related products. Call Cummins directly, or a Cummins service center, as they are the best to help with this.
Otherwise, Thor may can help, but they'll probably send you to Freightliner. Freightliner will probably send you to Cummins.

[The Gritz Carlton]

"Getting Thor to pickup the bill is another issue"

This is not a Thor issue..they pick up enough of their own bills. This is an issue with the chassis/engine manufacturer and their warranty should cover it.

[Chuck and Mary Ann]

Called Cummins and it's a Frieghtliner issue I'm told - can't get in until Wednesday at best. Trying something with FL - said leave the key on for 2 hours to see if the ERG or something resets - thinks that's BS but will try anything right now. As far as the DEF tank size, not interested in an argument over it - it's full that's all I know, and show full on both dash and tank gauge. Tried my OBDCII reader with the adapter - no luck and I'm told that unless you have the Cummins software you can't reset the check engine light anyway. will pull the negative battery cable next after hearing that annoying key alarm for 2 hours. At least it gave me time to change the oil! Thanks all for all input and suggestions - we need to help each other on these issues as service is a challenge for us all!

[roncalderz@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by Chuck and Mary Ann

Called Cummins and it's a Frieghtliner issue I'm told - can't get in until Wednesday at best. Trying something with FL - said leave the key on for 2 hours to see if the ERG or something resets - thinks that's BS but will try anything right now. As far as the DEF tank size, not interested in an argument over it - it's full that's all I know, and show full on both dash and tank gauge. Tried my OBDCII reader with the adapter - no luck and I'm told that unless you have the Cummins software you can't reset the check engine light anyway. will pull the negative battery cable next after hearing that annoying key alarm for 2 hours. At least it gave me time to change the oil! Thanks all for all input and suggestions - we need to help each other on these issues as service is a challenge for us all!

Agree ,help is appreciated. I was told also unhook battery , didn't work.