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Old 03-22-2016, 09:27 PM   #1
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THOR #2025
emergency start switch and chassis battery connected?

Issue: emergency start switch will not work if chassis battery is dead.

So, I did some trail and error to lead me to the conclusion that my emergency start switch is connected to the chassis battery.

I wanted to move the rv back into the shed before the snow hit NY. Chassis battery was completely dead. House batteries tested at full charged. However, the emergency start wouldn't work. I then decided to charged the chassis battery to get the rig going. I let it run for about 10 minutes.

Day two I tried to turn on the rv and the chassis battery was almost dead. It wouldn't turn over, but it appeared to have some juice. I used the emergency start switch and it kicked over fine. So, the switch is good by all accounts.

Day three, today, I tried to turn on the rv and the chassis battery was completely dead. I used the emergency switch and nothing. I checked the house batteries and they were at full charged.

Store/Use button was in USE. No breakers tripped.

I am guessing that the solenoid that connects to the house batteries is powered by the chassis battery.

I'm hoping to get some insight and possible fixes to this issue.

These RVs make my head hurt

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Old 03-22-2016, 11:15 PM   #2
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What year is your Axis?
There is a very long discussion of how the batteries are connected up in the Vegas/Axis units in this thread: battery - axis 24.1
If your unit is older (like mine) then it doesn't have all that; instead there is a "RV Custom Products" circuit board in the drivers side front outside storage bay. That board powers the emergency start switch from both the chassis and coach batteries (at least that is what it looks like from the circuit diagram I have of it).
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:06 AM   #3
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2016 Axis

Jeesh...this drives me nuts.

As always, thanks again J.
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:16 AM   #4
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For 2016 the battery - axis 24.1 thread would apply.
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:43 AM   #5
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When you look at the BIRD documentation, the aux start switch hooks the coach battery directly into the small power post on the Trombetta. Since it only takes 8v to open the Trombetta, that current from the coach battery opens the Trombetta and connects the coach and chassis batteries as long as the aux switch is held open. Apparently, for some reason there has to be a minimum charge on the chassis battery for this to work. I seem to remember a post several weeks back that mentioned minimum voltage on a battery?
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:55 AM   #6
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Here it is, a post from Dave in February that indicated that you need a minimum of 2-3v on the chassis battery for the Trombetta to open. I don't know why that is true, but it seems to be. If your chassis battery drops below 2-3 v apparently, the Trombetta does not open when the aux start switch is pushed. One way around this is to build yourself a short piece of battery cable to connect the two posts of the Trombetta. This would bypass that problem by hooking the coach and chassis battery directly without the Trombetta being open. If you do this, BE VERY CAREFUL with that cable connected to one side of the Trombetta. All the metal in that vicinity is "ground" and there are a lot of amps coming out of the battery.....
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:52 PM   #7
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I read the long discussion about batteries Jamie recommended. I didn't have that issue of a missing disconnect.

I think you are absolutely correct ONeil. I was thinking a Xantrex Echo Charge would take care of the chassis battery.

Although your alternative is much cheaper.
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Old 03-23-2016, 04:10 PM   #8
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Be aware that while the coach deep cycle batteries can be deeply discharged a hundred times or more, the starting battery is not designed to be deeply discharged at all. It sounds like your starting battery has been discharged down to "dead" more than several times. If that continues to happen, you will quickly end up with a "boat anchor" instead of a battery. And you will be the first to see if the starting battery in the 2016 Vegas/Axis can be manhandled thru that small opening in the front of the engine rather than cutting your dashboard apart. While I would like to know if that is possible, I would not wish it upon you.
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Old 03-23-2016, 05:22 PM   #9
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With the myriad comments on the forum from folks that could not get the emergency start function to work, I sort of assumed it was more than just "jumping" the coach batteries to the chassis battery. In most cases the people who had problems had a completely dead chassis battery. The data from Dave confirms that there has to be at least 2 to 3 V left in the chassis battery for the Trombetta to open allow the coach batteries to be used to start the engine.
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:27 PM   #10
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Today I spoke with a tech at Thor. I explained the issue and he said that the battery should not need any voltage at all. I do remember in my 2001 Chateau the battery being completely dead and still being able to use the e-start with no problem.

I'm thinking that perhaps the Thor tech has a limited understanding of how certain parts in the Axis function.
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Old 03-23-2016, 07:16 PM   #11
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I agree with the Thor tech that theoretically there should be no reason why the Trombetta should not open with the chassis battery below 2-3v, but there may be a safety feature somewhere in there to keep the coach batteries from discharging into the chassis battery if there is a short. It does not show up on any of the documentation but empirically something seems to stop the switch from working if the chassis battery is below 2-3v.
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Old 03-23-2016, 08:33 PM   #12
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Oneil,

How has the modification you made worked thus far? BIRD red wire to Trombetta.

Did it impact anything else in the coach? The red wire must go somewhere.

Seems like this is a better alternative than buying a small charger to keep the chassis battery fully charged.
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Old 03-23-2016, 09:54 PM   #13
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It has worked perfectly and nothing else has been impacted in the coach. We camped for three nights this weekend and drove the coach 200 miles. Talking to Thor and the BIRD rep, the red wire is supposed to go directly to the coach battery, just like the orange wire is supposed to go directly to the chassis battery - as it does. They could think of no reason why the red wire should go anywhere else. In my coach, the red wire was hooked up to some power source, but cutting it should not have affected that source and I made sure I covered the end so it could not short against a ground. The BIRD/Trombetta setup is now working as it was designed - keeping both battery systems fully charged whether on Engine alternator, generator or shore power. Much better than having to buy and use something else.
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:22 PM   #14
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This will be my next project.

It would be great if you could post one or two pictures for us visual learners.

Thanks for all your incredible work on this battery snafu.
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:03 AM   #15
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A lot of wires here...
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:30 AM   #16
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Incredible. The Thor installer changed all the wire colors. The orange wire looks like it has changed colors twice. There are four wires coming off your BIRD ( all four of which your are holding in your hand). The white one turns into the yellow with black stripe that goes to the small power post on the Trombetta. The red wire, to the right of the white one, is the wire that probably goes back into the coach and connects to the coach batteries. The outside right wire (orange) (I can't see the color wire spiced to it) but it should connect to the small red wire connected to the right post of the Trombetta. There should be a 15 amp fuse underneath your hand in that line. The fourth wire (left hand one) goes to ground.
Are you having issues with your charging system? Is your chassis battery not charging when the coach is plugged into shore power or on the generator? If everything is working OK, I would not touch it just to fix the colors of the wires. If your chassis battery is not charging on shore power or the generator, you can cut the red wire coming off the BIRD and connect it to the large, left post of the Trombetta via a 15 amp fuse. That should fix the problem.
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:51 AM   #17
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See http://www.thorforums.com/forums/f8/...-1-a-3150.html posts 71 and 72 and 90-93 for pictures or BIRDs and Trombettas and a more detailed discussion of this issue. I will post a picture of my modified (BIRD/Trombetta) tomorrow. There is also a modified schematic of the BIRD/Trombetta/battery wiring in the above thread.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:13 PM   #18
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Yes, I tested both chassis and coach batteries while on shore power. Chassis battery receives nothing.

I'll be working on it today.
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Old 03-24-2016, 01:50 PM   #19
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Sounds like a similar problem. Here is a pic of my Trombetta and BIRD today. You can see the four colored wires out of the BIRD to the right and the Trombetta to the left. The original 15 amp fuse is connected to the orange wire from the BIRD and ends at the right post of the Trombetta. The small red wire on the left with the fuse box that is attached to the left large post on the Trombetta is the one I spliced into the red wire coming out if the BIRD. The easiest and quickest way to see for you have the same problem that I did is, with the coach unplugged from shore power, cut the red wire coming out of the Trombetta at the place where it is joined to the new wire at the connector. That way you can easily connect it back up, if it is not the problem. Then measure the voltage on the wire that the red wire was connected to. See if you have the same voltage as the voltage on the left post of the Trombetta (the coach battery). If they are different you probably have a problem. Now plug in shore power and measure the voltage on the left post of the Trombetta and on that same wire leading back into the coach. The Trombetta should read over 13.5 v and if the red wire (the end going back into the coach) is connected correctly, you should get the same voltage reading. If both are reading the same, then the system is hooked up correctly. If so, You can reconnect the red wire and measure the voltage on the right side of the Trombetta with shore power on. If the two large posts do not read the same, and the Trombetta opens with the engine running and provides power to the coach battery, then it is probably the BIRD. If the voltage at the left post of the Trombetta and the wire leading back into the coach are not the same while you are hooked to shore power, then the fix is to connect the red wire from the BIRD directly (via a 15 amp fuse) to the left post of the Trombetta. After you hook it up, wait forever a minute or two before measuring the voltage. There is a time delay before the Trombetta opens.
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Old 03-24-2016, 03:32 PM   #20
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Just finished up the mod and it works perfectly! Chassis battery is being fully charged while on shore power.

I used a 5amp fuse as recommended. So, I should install a 15 fuse?
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