House Batteries - totally confused!

[Tmgsteve]

I’m not experienced at this, even though I have had coach since new. Original house batteries in my 2018 ACE 29.4 apparently toast. Keep coach connected to 50 amp service at home. While de-winterizing, unplugged shore power and didn’t have enough power to start generator! Used emergency start cross connect and fired up generator. Jumped on here to research which resulted in fog and confusion! OK, AGM a must/minimum, check. 100ah good (X2) to cover quiet time, check. Start looking to buy….Walmart, Amazon, auto zone, etc. Wow….overwhelmed. Size, shape…I’m not a cheapskate, but don’t need gold plating….I think. I don’t get to use my rig a lot. Only one long trip 2,000 miles round trip to date. Mostly close by (breed field and show dogs) with at least 20 amp shore power. So looking for battery recommendations for dummies.

[16ACE27]

Did you have your USE/STORE switch in USE while connected to SP? If not, those house batteries were not charging.
Did you check the battery water levels? If plates uncovered they're probably toast as you described. A must check maintenance item for Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries.

But some don't want to be bothered with that level check. If so, go for the AGMs. For your ACE, two group 31 AGMs will fit and be the best bang for the buck. AHs may vary slightly from brand to brand but expect 100 to 120 AH per battery. Lotsa people here are satisfied with the VMAX AGMs:

Here's a pack of two 120 AH for $630, shipping included:

https://www.amazon.com/MR137-120-Bat...dp/B01MSCEGPJ/

[Tmgsteve]

I really hate the use/store switch. Terrible deign. A simple DPDT with labels would be so much better. As it is, the sure way to be certain you are in use is to pull shore, shut down generator and see if the red light stays on! BTW, does your microwave and any of the 110 outlets run off house batteries? My range hood fan and light work, furnace, etc., but can’t make coffee unless I plug in to the chassis 110 outlet in front passenger seat/laptop area. Also, my house batteries are maintenance free, no water to fill.

Really appreciate your help.

[dkoldman]

Lot of things here.
Welcome to site
4 years may be normal that the battery is toast based on how it has been used, charged down etc.?

4 years of RV ownership says you have been doing something right
Put a green dot on the side of Use switch that you know is on, and it will be simple.

I am fairly certain a 29.4 comes with Inverter, if you don't know where it is sored, I would get with Thor, W/O Diagram the best way to know what run off of it, is to turn everything on and see what goes off when you only have Inverter on, Likely media center, various outlets throughout the coach, all TVs and external fridge are only things wired to it.

I concur with batteries recommended, try calling Vmax Tank direct, tell them you want the SLRs 125 amp-hrs Group 31

Not sure who told you the AGS would have helped in this case? If RV was stored AGS should be off, and use switch should be off. If you wish to keep RV active; then yes plug in shore, and put switch back to Use.

Also, not sure why you unplug to dewinterize?

[Pete'sMH]

If you were happy with the batteries you’ve had the cheapest and easiest thing to do will be to simply replace them with the same size flooded batteries. The same size AGM will require less maintenance but will cost more and probably won’t last any longer. It sounds like you don’t do a lot of boondocks camping so perhaps there is no real incentive to purchase bigger. 4-5 years is a pretty good run for any batteries.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Tmgsteve

I really hate the use/store switch. Terrible deign. A simple DPDT with labels would be so much better. As it is, the sure way to be certain you are in use is to pull shore, shut down generator and see if the red light stays on! BTW, does your microwave and any of the 110 outlets run off house batteries? My range hood fan and light work, furnace, etc., but can’t make coffee unless I plug in to the chassis 110 outlet in front passenger seat/laptop area. Also, my house batteries are maintenance free, no water to fill.

Really appreciate your help.

Well the USE/STORE switch is really just a control switch for a simple SPST latching relay battery disconnect; a DPDT switch isn't needed and I don't know of many that will handle the load required through the latching relay.

Ignore the little LED - it is not an indicator of the position of the latching relay - it just indicates the 12 VDC house buss has power. That power can come from either the house batteries or the converter.

If you want to simplify things, leave your latching relay closed (in USE) and install a manual battery disconnect on your house batteries. Should be no confusion as to that manual disconnect status.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Tmgsteve

I really hate the use/store switch. Terrible deign. A simple DPDT with labels would be so much better. As it is, the sure way to be certain you are in use is to pull shore, shut down generator and see if the red light stays on! BTW, does your microwave and any of the 110 outlets run off house batteries? My range hood fan and light work, furnace, etc., but can’t make coffee unless I plug in to the chassis 110 outlet in front passenger seat/laptop area. Also, my house batteries are maintenance free, no water to fill.

Really appreciate your help.

My Entegra has it right. First, it is labeled Main Power. Second one switch on or off. When on red light illuminates. When off the only power available is through the inverter which is wired to the batteries.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Tmgsteve

I’m not experienced at this, even though I have had coach since new. Original house batteries in my 2018 ACE 29.4 apparently toast. Keep coach connected to 50 amp service at home. While de-winterizing, unplugged shore power and didn’t have enough power to start generator! Used emergency start cross connect and fired up generator. Jumped on here to research which resulted in fog and confusion! OK, AGM a must/minimum, check. 100ah good (X2) to cover quiet time, check. Start looking to buy….Walmart, Amazon, auto zone, etc. Wow….overwhelmed. Size, shape…I’m not a cheapskate, but don’t need gold plating….I think. I don’t get to use my rig a lot. Only one long trip 2,000 miles round trip to date. Mostly close by (breed field and show dogs) with at least 20 amp shore power. So looking for battery recommendations for dummies.

I just installed 3 of these:
https://www.vmaxtanks.com/XTR27-110-...ery_p_175.html
They are really good and this is what I consider minimum for an RV.

[Hugh.vines@att.net]

Originally Posted by RACarvalho

I just installed 3 of these:
https://www.vmaxtanks.com/XTR27-110-...ery_p_175.html
They are really good and this is what I consider minimum for an RV.

200 pounds heavy

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Hugh.vines@att.net

200 pounds heavy

While this sounds heavy, it is only 0.9% of my 22000 GVWR and the sticker says I do have 3900+ lbs of payload capacity....

I did consider and was willing to move to Lithium but I decided for AGMs for the following reasons:

1 - Use vs Cost:
Lithium is way more expensive and I would have to change the converter, dump the BIM, install a DCtoDC charger and find and install a relay to keep the emergency function. I was willing to do that until I consider the cost and work involved versus what I really need: We don't do boomdock, only Walmart overnights ! So to me it looked too much $ and a lot of work that is not really needed... Better to put that $ and effort in other mods!!!
2 - Temperature:
Early in Spring and late in Fall we do camp in freezing temperatures.
The battery bay in our MH is made of steel and it is open to the environment which means the batteries do have possibility to be frozen and lithium really don't perform when is frozen. In our last trip we got lower 20s and had to run the furnace at night. The draw that night was a total of 117ah in total for the overnight and the AGMs performed flawlessly.
If I had installed the 200ah Lithium I had planned, I would be concerned if the batteries would deliver 60% of their stated capacity under those circunstances. I don't want another concern while I'm on vacation.
To solve that concern I would have to bring the batteries inside the MH but since my floorplan have opposite slides this would be an even more complicated intervention and then we get back to point 1...

The reason I stated those are minimum is because I consider our use (117ah overnight when it is freezing outside) to be the minimum you can expect w/o turning the genny overnight.
We do turn the genny on in the morning to do coffee and use the microwave for breakfast but thats it.
As a data point, the other night we overnight at Walmart and didn't have to use the furnace the draw was around 65ah so completely within the 50% capacity of the 330ah bank of AGMs and easy/fast to recharge since as soon as we turned on the engine the BIM connected the batteries and the alternator started to dump 40A into the house batteries!!!

[abjbrtd]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

If you were happy with the batteries you’ve had the cheapest and easiest thing to do will be to simply replace them with the same size flooded batteries. The same size AGM will require less maintenance but will cost more and probably won’t last any longer. It sounds like you don’t do a lot of boondocks camping so perhaps there is no real incentive to purchase bigger. 4-5 years is a pretty good run for any batteries.

"4-5 years is a pretty good run for any batteries."

Sure wish ALL my 12v batteries over the decades would have lasted that long

[Metalman]

I replaced the two OEM batteries in our Windsport with two AGM batteries from Batteries Plus Bulbs. They were expensive, but are working well. The RV is stored more than it is used. I do not plug it into shore power while being stored. I turn off the store/use switch (it is labeled store and use). I also put a battery disconnect switch on the negative side of the two coach batteries. An AGM specific maintainer is attached to the two AGM batteries and a flooded lead acid battery maintainer is attached to the chassis battery.

[The Gritz Carlton]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

If you were happy with the batteries you’ve had the cheapest and easiest thing to do will be to simply replace them with the same size flooded batteries. The same size AGM will require less maintenance but will cost more and probably won’t last any longer. It sounds like you don’t do a lot of boondocks camping so perhaps there is no real incentive to purchase bigger. 4-5 years is a pretty good run for any batteries.

^^^Perfectly explained...I got 4 years out of my flooded twin 6 volts. Replaced them with 2 new flooded Trojans. I check water levels once a month like clock work as I run generator for cocktail hour. Most premature battery issues are due to lack of maintenance. If it worked well for that long...why change??

[Bob Denman]

I just had to put a pair of AGM Batteries in my Tiffin.
I had size 27s in there (FLA); but 31s fit perfectly!
No more worrying about water levels!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Hugh.vines@att.net

200 pounds heavy

Actually those Max tanks recommended above are only 137 lbs for two. You would then need to deduct the OEM batteries weight so you might only be talking 40 lbs more.

The vMax tanks I bought were 75lbs each so that is 150 lbs
https://www.vmaxtanks.com/SLR125-12V...tery_p_38.html

But these batteries last twice as long. I do agree with what Pete said above that this user may not need AGM, but I find a lot of irony that so many people seem to not worry about price of gas but some find it practical to a money saver to buy FLAs. I dumped my perfectively good FLA because I just wanted more AH ( OP does not seem to need) and the corrosion that ruining the floor and concrete of my new RV.

I am about as cheap as they come, but a FLA is something I will never ever buy for my RV. I take that back, I don't think I have had any issue with my Chassis FLA, it has been 2 1/2 years and it does not and will not get any water from me. So depending on when it dies I will decide. I just know it never corrodes and starts like a champ every time If it goes another 1 1/2 years...then when it dies; I will compare the cost of OEM FLA replacement to a new AGM and decide. If it died today, it would be AGM without a 2nd thought.

[Tmgsteve]

Thanks for all the info and advice. Realize now that I have never truly dry camped, always had access to shore power. Only now finding out what the house batteries can power, or doesn’t power. Battery life issue aside (solve following provided advice), I’ve found that the microwave and 110 outlets have no power when on battery. TVs, furnace etc. work. Is this the way it is supposed to work in ACE 29.4?

[MJC62]

Originally Posted by Tmgsteve

Thanks for all the info and advice. Realize now that I have never truly dry camped, always had access to shore power. Only now finding out what the house batteries can power, or doesn’t power. Battery life issue aside (solve following provided advice), I’ve found that the microwave and 110 outlets have no power when on battery. TVs, furnace etc. work. Is this the way it is supposed to work in ACE 29.4?

TV's? Our ACE is a 2018 27.2 no TV's on the house batteries. They are on the 110 circuits (shore power or generator). Furnace WILL operate on house batteries as the furnace blower is 12 volts.

[Metalman]

For your TVs and 120-volt outlets to work from the batteries you would need an inverter. I suspect only larger RVs have an inverter big enough for a microwave.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Tmgsteve

Thanks for all the info and advice. Realize now that I have never truly dry camped, always had access to shore power. Only now finding out what the house batteries can power, or doesn’t power. Battery life issue aside (solve following provided advice), I’ve found that the microwave and 110 outlets have no power when on battery. TVs, furnace etc. work. Is this the way it is supposed to work in ACE 29.4?

The only way your TVs work when "on battery" is if you have an inverter that powers them. If you have a residential fridge then Thor installed an inverter to power it from the batteries and also connected the TV outlets - standard practice.

If you do have a residential fridge and inverter and you plan to do any dry camping in the future (i.e National Parks), then get the largest AH batteries you willing to spend money on.

[Scubawise]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Did you have your USE/STORE switch in USE while connected to SP? If not, those house batteries were not charging.
Did you check the battery water levels? If plates uncovered they're probably toast as you described. A must check maintenance item for Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) batteries.

But some don't want to be bothered with that level check. If so, go for the AGMs. For your ACE, two group 31 AGMs will fit and be the best bang for the buck. AHs may vary slightly from brand to brand but expect 100 to 120 AH per battery. Lotsa people here are satisfied with the VMAX AGMs:

Here's a pack of two 120 AH for $630, shipping included:

https://www.amazon.com/MR137-120-Bat...dp/B01MSCEGPJ/

Vmax will ship cheaper and free shipping and fix anything with battery they claim...I am thrilled