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Old 11-28-2018, 02:00 AM   #1
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THOR #1020
Ignition Lock Out gone wonky

Ran into a problem I cannot seem to resolve and need help if available.

On our 2015 Thor Challenger 37TB suddenly and without fanfare slides, overhead bunk and awnings stop working. Initially thought it was Rapid Camp but after extensive troubleshooting worked the problem forward to the front interior electrical buss. Ignition/Accessories Relay 2, 3, 4 seem to be where the problem gets first seen. If Relay 2 is removed, the slides operate. If Relay 2 is replaced, slides operate. Once the ignition switch is turned on and then off, slides do not operate. Pull Relay 2 and replace, slides again operate. Turn the ignition switch back on and then off, slides don't operate. I am attaching the wiring diagram. The common feed to each of these relays is "Ford Ignition Input".

Also, steps fail to operate correctly. With ignition switch in off position, step switch on and open the door - steps deploy. With the ignition in off position, step switch on and close the door - steps retract. Again sounds like the ignition switch lockout.

I am attaching a copy of the wiring diagram. Anyone with experience with this issue or anyone with advise for resolving, please comment. Gonna get old fooling with these relays.

PS: Andrea Hans (Thor CSR) spent the better part of 90 minutes helping me. Thank you.
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:47 AM   #2
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Probably a stupid suggestion, but what about replacing relay #2 and see if that solves the issue? Also, I thought that's the way steps worked. I'm on our 3rd class A and that is what has always happened when the step switch was on. With it off, they remain out until the ignition switch is turned on.
Mike
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Old 11-28-2018, 04:00 AM   #3
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THOR #2631
So under normal conditions it looks like all four lockout relays should operate when the ignition is enabled, which then disconnects the respective loads for all four relays from the +12 VDC of the chassis battery.
Is relay #2 the only one with an issue? If yes does anything change if you remove relay 2 and replace it with a matching relay from another circuit ( I am assuming these relays are all the same) ?


The strange thing in your comments is when you pull out relay #2 and the loads for that relay still operate off the chassis battery. I would think that removing any of the four relays would stop the respective loads from functioning. Maybe a short cct from A4 to C5 on relay #2 base?
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Old 11-28-2018, 04:53 AM   #4
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THOR #2631
Correction to my previous comment......relay 1 is not operated by the ignition but is controlled by the fog light switch. The relay looks the same as 2, 3, and 4 though.
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:12 PM   #5
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THOR #1150
If the relays are the same exact unit I would:
  • Mark them with a sharpie (their original positions)
  • Exchange a couple to see what happens
If the behavior changes you know you have a bad relay with one of the two you exchanged. If you do another exchange you should be able to narrow down which one is iffy.
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Old 11-28-2018, 01:18 PM   #6
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THOR #1020
Coach is going into storage for 3 weeks and then we are going to living in again for 3 months. I agree with the idea of switching out the relays. To be sure, I am going to order 4 new ones while we are in our brick and mortar. Off Amazon they are less than $10 each.

Appreciate the inputs. If anyone else has direct experience with the "ignition lockout", I'd appreciate any advise.

I also contacted Andrea and asked for further info about the Ford Ignition Input 1A.


I'll check in once a day with follow up info.

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond.
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Old 11-29-2018, 01:32 AM   #7
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Follow up

Well - a quick update. Before we left our site this morning, I told the DW that by the time we got to our new site the problem would be gone. Sure enough, after driving for about 110 miles today - everything worked except the steps. I put the coach into storage and will finish as we head south to Key West for the winter.

Looking at the wiring diagrams and following up again with Andrea, I believe the issue is either in the ignition switch or even in the step/step controller.

Next steps in December will be the investment in 4 new relays and try to isolate the issue. (4 each delivered $19.50)

In a past life, I did some electronic and computer "stuff". The bane of debugging was always the intermittent bugs. TOUGH to isolate.

Anyway thanks to all of you again. Also, for the uninitiated I will post picture of the Rapid Camp Relay and some wiring diagrams. Unfortunately this has not been my first go around with the Rapid Camp.

Again thanks for the inputs.

Rapid Camp Module is also known as LCI LINC MULTIFUNCTION BOARD -8 CHANNEL OUTPUT.
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:29 PM   #8
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THOR #1020
Some more follow up. Talked with CSR Andrea Hans who provided me some info to complete the diagnosis. I checked the voltage at both pin slot A4 and C4 with the switch off. I got 12V at A4 and 6V at C4. Voltage with the switch off should be 12V at A4 and 0V at C4. C4 is wired to the switch via Ford Ignition Input 1A. This doesn't answer where that voltage is actually coming from but sure has narrowed down the place to look. Could be as simple as a loose connection at the Ford Ignition Switch. Definitely easier to get at than the dog gone Rapid Camp Module!!

Just to be clear to any others researching this or similar issue. With any voltage coming in at the C4 pin the relay will close activating the Ignition Lockout.

Of course this is all from the what it is worth department.
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:37 PM   #9
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THOR #2631
Interesting problem. I see there is a lock out relay feeding the Rapid Camp module as well which has an ignition sense wire on pin 86 (coil wire) of the lock out relay. It would seem logical for Thor to use the same ignition sense contact point for both the Rapid Camp and the front end relays (perhaps). Does the Rapid Camp "ign" wire also measure 6 volts when ignition is off and key is out of the ignition? If not it would be interesting to know where the two ign wires source.....perhaps your Thor CSR could find that out for you. Worst case you could tap the working ign source off rapid camp and use it for your front end relays......unless Thor comes through with some more details for you.



What is also interesting is that with only 6 volts on the ign wire for the front lockout relays....the relays operate. You would think they should be 12 volt relays. Perhaps they are sensitive and pull enough current at half voltage to operate.
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:00 PM   #10
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THOR #1020
The rapid camp module in fact does use that same voltage. The 6 volts comes from the Ford ignition input without being plugged into the relay. That is why the relay was closing incorrectly when the switch was off.

The good news is I've run it into a corner for now. It must be in the ignition switch itself. However that seems to have cured itself during the drive on Wednesday. This all leads me to believe that there is a loose connection in the switch.
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:51 PM   #11
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THOR #2631
Sorry, I missed the Rapid Camp loads were also having issues too. It would be nice if someone on the forum with Ford F53 schematic access could float the ignition schematic and Thor could provide something about where they connect to that ignition point. Seems odd that it measures 6 volts when the fault is on. You would think a short at the ignition would be either solid ground or 12volts. A loose connection might do a voltage in between but a constant 6 volts? .......this seems like a resistance in series with the ign wire like a short to 12v with some relay coil (resistance) dropping the voltage. It will be interesting to see what you find out.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:23 PM   #12
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THOR #1020
Javelin - the diagram I attached shows the connection via the relays in the Buss below the automotive fuse panel. I am trying to find the Ford ignition circuit.
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Old 01-18-2020, 02:50 AM   #13
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Similar problem right now! Thor ACE 30.1 2016

This morning slides came in fine. Arrive at boondock spot (just after dark, of course) and the slides don't go and the awning doesn't go. Interestingly, the lights (five white LEDs under the headlights on each side) that go on when the ignition is on, stay on. I have tried turnng ignition on and off to see if that resets anything. No joy. Can't call Thor as it's Friday night. (My experience in the past was that they were difficult to reach during business hours, an unhelpful if reached, but I've been reading the last year or so that there may have been a change.)

I imagine it's a relay issue as discussed. Anybody know where that relay (or those relays) might be on a 2016 Thor ACE 30.1 ? No Rapid Camp. Any idea which relay before i start yanking the all out (if I ever find any.)

Useful and/or entertaining suggestions welcomed! Thanks.

Neil
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:09 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by K6NCX View Post
This morning slides came in fine. Arrive at boondock spot (just after dark, of course) and the slides don't go and the awning doesn't go. Interestingly, the lights (five white LEDs under the headlights on each side) that go on when the ignition is on, stay on. I have tried turnng ignition on and off to see if that resets anything. No joy. Can't call Thor as it's Friday night. (My experience in the past was that they were difficult to reach during business hours, an unhelpful if reached, but I've been reading the last year or so that there may have been a change.)

I imagine it's a relay issue as discussed. Anybody know where that relay (or those relays) might be on a 2016 Thor ACE 30.1 ? No Rapid Camp. Any idea which relay before i start yanking the all out (if I ever find any.)

Useful and/or entertaining suggestions welcomed! Thanks.

Neil

I wish I could be more help regarding your situation and the previous person's trouble as well, but I can only fumble along sometimes.

From the description it sounds like your ignition switch, though off, is still powering (some) Ignition circuits, acting and powering loads like it is still on. I am not familiar with the 2016 ACE control wiring. My 2013 ACE uses the BCC battery control made by RV Custom Products, and when Ford ignition is on, it operates a couple relays in the BCC (ignition and accessory) that basically power other coach loads that the Ford ignition switch is not designed to do (current rating too low). Now I “assume”, even on my coach, which I should know better than I do, that one of the ignition control wires likely connects all the way back to two of three identical relays mounted together under the bed. One relay locks out the awning, one I “think” (marked ignition) locks out the slides when the ignition is on; the third is simply a water pump relay. Picture attached FYI in case you have similar. If you have these relays I suspect that the two relays (awning and slides) are being operated by your ignition signal, and are therefore locked out (prevented from operating). You could pull one of the coil wires on each of the lockout relays under the bed (coil wires usually labelled 85 and 86 on most 4 or 5 pin relays. If you do this temporarily make sure your reconnect before traveling.



So question is why is your ignition “on” signal still connecting to things when your ignition switch is off? Bad ignition switch perhaps? The next question is, can you defeat the lockout temporarily to allow camping at least (and not discharge your chassis battery loads that appear to be on as well), until you can get the coach in for repair (or find someone that knows what a 2016 ACE uses for lockout controls).


Are all other Ford accessory loads on (or powered) as well? In other words, any Ford items working that normally need ignition on to do so.....like turn signals?
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:55 PM   #15
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Update - still no joy

With help from someone smaller and more limber than myself, pulled the four relays out of the Thor panel under the left side of the dash. Then the six from the Ford panels (two on red panel, four on green panel.) According the diagram (I bought a Chilton online subscription for this) one of the two on the green panel should have been the Daytime Running Light relay, so they should have gone out. They remained on...

All relays are back in now. Not surprisingly with the DTR on, slides and awning still do not work.
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Old 01-19-2020, 03:53 AM   #16
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THOR #2631
If just the DRLs are the only lights on after the ignition is turned off and you want to turn them off, you could try pulling the DRL relay #2 in the UPS Power Dist Box #1.......according to the 2015 Ford Motorhome Chassis Owners Manual fuse/relay listing. (View is attached). I “assume” this is mounted in the engine bay “somewhere” like the Ford Power Dist Box is.....but I don’t know that for sure; nor if pulling the relay will kill your DRLs. I assume it would, but not sure as I have no schematics to help.



Also curious if putting on your parking brake will turn the DRLs off also?


In the end, turning off the DRLs may not actually re-enable your lockout relays for the awning and slides, but perhaps the ignition “on” sense for those lockouts somehow comes from or through the DRL circuit. Having no schematics makes this kind of problem difficult to solve. I hope you find your solution; or that someone in the know can better help you.
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Old 01-19-2020, 04:16 AM   #17
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THOR #13932
I'll add to the confusion.
My drl aren't on when low beam. They are on at all other times.
So, low beam position kills the drl circuit on my 24.1
I know fog lights do not work on high beam.

Probably not related,
But
since we've moved to drl and ignition, try it all low beam, try it all high beam.
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Old 01-19-2020, 01:13 PM   #18
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THOR #2631
Just one more added comment on DRL fusing. The 2015 chassis owners manual also shows a DRL fuse (fuse #10 is a 20Amp) in the Power Distribution Box in the engine bay. Not sure if it protects the DRL relay or the actual DRL module/cct?
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Old 01-19-2020, 02:18 PM   #19
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THOR #16471
Quote:
Originally Posted by K6NCX View Post
.... should have been the Daytime Running Light relay, so they should have gone out. They remained on...

All relays are back in now. Not surprisingly with the DTR on, slides and awning still do not work.
Is there a chance the 5 LEDs under the headlights are "Fog Lights"?
I know this might be silly, but is your fog light switch 'on'?
I am looking at photos for your unit and am not sure which headlamps perform what function. I am just grasping...


Stay cool
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Old 01-22-2020, 02:54 AM   #20
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When you pulled out the relays was there any green corrosion in or on the terminal ends of the distribution box?

I have found a few pdm's that got moisture in them and corrodes and cross feeds power to other terminals or causes low voltage issues.

And in a number of times chassis modules had to be replaced,known issue with diamler/chrysler or freightliner modules covers not sealing correctly and was a recall to replace covers to a newer design.
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