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Old 08-22-2020, 04:56 PM   #21
MLP
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THOR #17478
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
When this is working as it should, I can pull up to a campsite with generator and ACs running and leave them on, and when I connect to the pedestal, the genset should turn off automatically, likewise if I am connected to shore power, and shore power is loss, the gen should turn on automatically. All of this assumes I am in AUTO mode.
Be careful about automatically starting a generator in an RV park. Even though the parks power is out, some parks don't allow generators to be run. I have been in several, but in one park with that rule when the power was out for a half hour and it the park was informed by the power company that it could be 4 to 5 hours to restore, they came around and told each site that they could run their generators. If a park doesn't allow generators, you will be kicked out.

That all being said, go ahead and kick me out for keeping my pets and grandma alive! When checking in, get prior permission for the auto gen start when power is lost. If they refuse, don't go back there.
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Old 08-22-2020, 04:59 PM   #22
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THOR #4735
typical AGS modules, whether Onan EC-30 or the Magnum AGS do NOT automatically start the generator simply because Shore Power is lost - there is only TWO reasons that it would, REGARDLESS of whether these is even Shore Power or not:

- Battery VOLTAGE level reading: if the voltage reading of the House Batteries falls below a set number, such as 11.9volts, then the AGS calls for the generator to Prime, and then Crank, to run and provide power to RECHARGE the batteries. It will run for the set time, called 'RUN TIME' that the owner sets - NOT an amount of time to get the batteries to a certain level. It is totally TIME driven.

- Temperature: If the AGS temperature sensor, or an integrated sensor reading from the air conditioner's Thermostat, rises ABOVE the set level, the AGS then primes and starts the generator, so that the Air Conditioner can then 'run'. This can be a little confusing, though, as there is a procedure for 'how' to set the AGS Temp Level and how to set the Air Conditioner's Thermostat setting, so that the A/C unit is 'ready' when the generator starts providing power - otherwise the generator could come on, and yet the a/c unit NOT provide cooling the whole time the generator runs. The AGS 'RUN TIME' setting ALSO applies to this. If you want the a/c units to run 'longer', set it for 1 or 2 hours, but if you want it to run only for 30 minutes, the minimum, set it to that. Whether the a/c unit continues to cool the whole time will be determined by the Thermostat, but won't effect the running of the generator, even if the a/c unit turns off in the mean time.

Some higher-end AGS modules can develop profiles and settings that allow the owner to more 'customize' the outcomes, but the basics usually work just fine.


Now, one way to 'get around' the lack of the 'loss of shore power to instantly start the generator' is to simply set the AGS Volts Level to a very high number, such as 12.5 volts or higher, so that the loss of power causes the AGS to kick in much quicker than it would otherwise.
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Old 08-22-2020, 05:05 PM   #23
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by MLP View Post
B...some parks don't allow generators to be run. I have been in several, but in one park with that rule when the power was out for a half hour and it the park was informed by the power company that it could be 4 to 5 hours to restore, they came around and told each site that they could run their generators. If a park doesn't allow generators, you will be kicked out.

...
I would be careful about spreading these types of concerns - most any park or campground has no issues with generators running when a power outage has occurred, OR even owners running theirs simply as an 'exercise' periodically for maintenance purposes, even if they have any 'rules' against it. Any 'rule' is referring to someone solely running their generator to power their coach, interfering with the peace and quite of the park, when they have Shore Power options.
We did run into several campgrounds with pretty strict 'generator run time' rules, and it's not always fun when you are so limited, especially when the big turbo diesel rigs, idling for what seems like hours, make MUCH more noise than the typical generator does.
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Old 08-22-2020, 06:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
When I said "Can of worms" I was referring to the mess you have now due to something (or multiple things) being wired incorrectly, not that your RV is a can of worms. Only the person that worked on your RV knowns what he did or attempted to do; everyone else is just guessing based on your interpretation of the symptoms you are experiencing. Mis-interpretation or mis-speaking when describing these symptoms just adds to the confusion and puts more worms in the can.

Anybody with electrical training knows that transformers are AC only devices. Others think of "transformers" as those toy car things that transform from cars/trucks to robots (or whatever) because they transform from one thing to another. So a device that takes AC and makes it into DC for whatever reason may be incorrectly called a transformer, that nomenclature makes it confusing for people who know what an electrical transformer really is; hence, as Cavie said, the need for correct nomenclature when talking electrical stuff.

Surge Guard/Surge Protector is the same thing - an EMS is is much more complicated (and expensive) thing.

Hopefully your dealer can quickly sort out a simple mis-wiring to get you working again, but as this is not a standard installation the chance you get cured by anyone on an internet forum for this issue is pretty small.
The RV is back at the dealership. They say it was working before I picked it up yesterday? They say the ATS may have failed.

I don't want to venture too far off topic, because my intent was simply to post my true first failure, I used nomenclature from the dealer and what I saw on product label in part to try to be more specific about what it is. That point failed miserably on this thread. If you look at the picture of ATS which is 40100, you can see on the new labels of same 40100 model from Southwire https://rvpower.southwire.com/produc...ansfer-switch/ they have re-named the brand so the word Surge Guard is not seen or used by the layman person reading what is on the product.

Also, FWIW this morning the dealer confirmed no breaker was added only inline fuse as was on the invoice. Speaking of which he still calls it a 12vdc transformer but I understand the technicality of the difference. No worries as long as they can fix. I must have at least 10-20 of those things around the house and I have always called them AC/DC adapters.

I will certainly update all as to what happens when it is complete.
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Old 08-22-2020, 07:16 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldWEB View Post
I have read "most" of the manual for the Onan EC-30 and from what I understand it is used exclusively to start/stop the generator when:
1) There is no AC shore power; AND
2) The thermostat is calling for A/C (or I suppose heat?) OR the batteries require a charge.


It is not designed to automatically start if the shore power goes off without either of #2 above requesting it. It is only a safety feature to keep the left behind pets (or maybe grandma?) inside from baking. This is how I read the manual.
So for you 'needing' the 12VDC sensing voltage on the shore side of the ATS is wrong. If anywhere in the coach there is a loss of AC, then the EC-30 should start the generator as you can assume the shore cable is not supplying power.
Am I wrong in this assumption I read from the manual?
Good luck.
What you state is EXACTLY what I have been using my EC-30 to do thus far. However, upon further review and conversations with Onan, I realized I was NOT leveraging all of my features.

It is designed and capable to start if shore power goes off, and can also shut down generator if shore power is detected. I can't speak to the manual you are reading, but if I can find an electronic version of what I have that came with my EC-30 from Onan you will see; as you obviously do not care to believe me

During the interim, the below is a picture of the my EC-30 with serial number blacked out. Look at pins to #13 and #14. That is how EC-30 knows or senses shore power. The AC/DC Adapter is plugged into 120vac source BEFORE or AFTER ATS and it converts it (maybe not transform ) to 12vdc on these two pins.

The reason it was in the shop was because these 2 pins previously had been wired reversed (reverse polarity) and connected to a outlet that was AFTER the ATS. Onan allows you do it either way. I wanted full features from my EC-30 thus the need for this work order. Ironically all seems to be fine now as far as the EC-30 and wiring is concerned, it just that a mishap must have occurred with ATS during the process. I promise to keep posted as to what happening I think I am learning that this is not something that is commonly known and there is hesitancy to believe what I say or at the least what I am attempting to do? The EC-30 is by far the most favorite toy of all on my RV. 8 months and my batteries have never dropped below 12.4v next year, this Nov; I plan to drop it to 12.3v for Auto Gen to start.
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Old 08-22-2020, 07:31 PM   #26
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THOR #13058
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLP View Post
Be careful about automatically starting a generator in an RV park. Even though the parks power is out, some parks don't allow generators to be run. I have been in several, but in one park with that rule when the power was out for a half hour and it the park was informed by the power company that it could be 4 to 5 hours to restore, they came around and told each site that they could run their generators. If a park doesn't allow generators, you will be kicked out.

That all being said, go ahead and kick me out for keeping my pets and grandma alive! When checking in, get prior permission for the auto gen start when power is lost. If they refuse, don't go back there.
MLP,

In situation you described; my EC-30 will not auto start due to power loss.

My EC-30 Auto Gen has feature called Quiet Time. It is optionally programmed. I set mine at 10:00 PM START TIME and 7:00 AM END time. So when I am in park with quiet hours I put the AGS in Quiet Time mode. It will NOT Auto Start under any condition including loss of power.

Even when boondocking away from a campsite, I prefer Quiet Time because genset will not try to start up in the middle of the night. It waits until 7:00 AM to either recool the coach or recharge the batteries.

But you pose a interesting test case Let's say it is in Quiet Time mode, the batteries stay fully charged overnight, the coach temperature stays above the HVAC request call, and power goes out at 5:00 AM and stays out to say 9:00AM; will the EC-30 tell it to start at 7:00AM because of loss of power?
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Old 08-22-2020, 07:58 PM   #27
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Onan EC-30 Manual

I must say I am a little taken back surprised that the feature I have been discussing is not commonly known.

Here is Owner Manual for EC-30 (from Onan)

https://onan.xmsi.net/900-0541B%20On...0(12-2007).pdf

You can see all of the details wiring drawings for installs etc. But to get right to the point go to page 5 of the manual
(Preventing Automatic Starting when connected to Shore Power AC)

Pages 7 and 8 explain the detail of how it works. Look at bottom right of page 7 and all of page 8.

You will see where I am going from the functions SP SENSE AFTER to the SP SENSE BEFORE

I will gain the ability of #2 for Genset to shut off when AC power is present from Shore and #3 auto start upon loss of AC power, Onan refers to it as automatic backup system.

I hope this help clarifies for all. Sorry for any confusion on my part with terms or definitions. I just want them to get it fixed. It was my first real oh oh moment with a Winnebago Dealer and I thought I would share. The coach was returned back to them within 18 hours of my pickup yesterday. I will give them some time to advise as to what happened. Last night; I had vision or hope that some little red button may have been missing for easy fix; as to not have to cancel my trip, but those plans are toast now.
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Old 08-22-2020, 08:31 PM   #28
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Auto Shutdown

Now with a little nudging, I do see why the shore sensing is needed, how else would the gen set know when the shore power has returned!!??!!

It has been an enlightening posting to say the least, at least I did learn something today. I am glad you got it into the service centre and hope you can make your trip timings.
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Old 08-26-2020, 08:56 PM   #29
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Its not a 12vdc transformer, its a ac powered 12vdc power supply and battery charger. There should not be an outlet before the ats for any reason. That would mean your outlet is only breakered (fused) at the 50 amp power pole. Remember a 50 amp connection is 50 amps each leg! The ats is a solenoid, sometimes they don't energize correctly, just like in a car starter, tap it with a hammer it might switch. If however the surge protector is showing no power it is fried and not repairable. Test it plugged in directly.
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Old 08-27-2020, 05:04 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by MaceMan View Post
Its not a 12vdc transformer, its a ac powered 12vdc power supply and battery charger. There should not be an outlet before the ats for any reason. That would mean your outlet is only breakered (fused) at the 50 amp power pole. Remember a 50 amp connection is 50 amps each leg! The ats is a solenoid, sometimes they don't energize correctly, just like in a car starter, tap it with a hammer it might switch. If however the surge protector is showing no power it is fried and not repairable. Test it plugged in directly.
I thought this had been put to rest, but you may not have read all of the posts

It was established that it is 12vdc Power Supply in post #11. I also took a picture of it in post #12 where it is actually called AC/DC Adapter by the manufacturer. The Dealer invoice called it a Converter 2A 24W. "It is what it is".

The term 12vdc transformer originates from the dealer, whether it was a typo or mistake error by the ticket service writer is irrelevant and off point. Per Onan a AC Transformer or 12vdc Power Supply is to be wired BEFORE or AFTER the ATS dependent upon which features you wish to use. It is not my job to convince you ... as I have posted the full Onan manual which explains it all in details if you care to learn why it MUST be wired in front of ATS for reasons to sense shore power.

FWIW, the picture of manual below is likely why the Dealer mixed the AC Transformer with 12vdc Power Supply. Onan is stating that it must be one of the two options... and that point may have been lost?

Also just so you know, it has a 15 AMP inline fuse 14AWG

I would have tried to tap it to see what happens, had I got your suggestion last week. The coach is still new under warranty; so I took it back to Winnebago dealer. I will report what they find is wrong with the Southwire ATS.

Be advised it has nothing to do with the Southwire surge protector. There is power through the surge protector, and to both legs on the input side of the Southwire ATS.

I am really surprised by how many peeps have never heard of an AGS being wired in front of ATS!!! Call Onan directly, or google and you will see. My install is authorized by Onan & Winnebago Dealer, and it actually extends my Onan warranty on the AGS EC-30 when installed on brand new RV by an Authorized Dealer.

Look forward to the day I get it back, may have to make a video so all can see the Genset fire up when I unplug it, or turn off when I plug it to shore power.

If you take a minute to THINK it through, it is no way it could do that AFTER the ATS because how would the shore sensor know if the 120vac was sourced from Shore or the Generator
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Old 08-31-2020, 11:00 PM   #31
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Update: This morning I got confirmation that the issue was with the ATS. A new part is on order; so the actual repair is pending. I also had them upgrade the 110vac receptacle to include a grounded casing that happens to have a better color match (dark brown) for cosmetic purposes.
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Old 09-04-2020, 10:33 PM   #32
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Update: The new ATS was installed this morning and shore power is now restored

You can also see the new receptacle. Compare to picture in Post #13. My next step is to go into AGS Automatic mode and start playing with new features.
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Old 09-05-2020, 03:53 PM   #33
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Confirmed working as expected

Update: This morning I had the time to go through some of the new features afforded to me based on having the 12VDC Adapter connected to 120VAC Shore power source BEFORE the Southwire ATS.

1. The Onan EC-30 AutoGen would not AUTOMATICALLY start in any scenario if AC shore power was present. Note: If you go to Manual mode Generator will start and ATS takes over to supply coach from Generator

2. The Onan EC-30 AutoGen AUTOMATICALLY shut off when AC shore power was restored. Note: It conforms to the minimum runtime of 10 minutes before Generator shutdown.

3. The Onan EC-30 AutoGen started AUTOMATICALLY when AC Shore power was loss. Note: This effectively is an automatic power backup system.

I know there were a few doubters, but the EC-30 by Cummins Onan is 5 Star in my book. For what we do in our RV, it is the most essential Mod todate. Note: this was not Factory Installed by Winnebago rather an Onan option I chose with to do with an Authorized Winnebago Dealer. Short the failure with the Southwire ATS, this would have gone flawless the 1st time. I credit my Dealer for staying on this replacing that ATS at no additional cost, and quick turn around during Covid.

Few pictures to show what the screens looked like during my testing.
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