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Old 08-21-2020, 11:39 PM   #1
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THOR #13058
No AC Voltage from Transfer Switch?

What could cause no shore power from ATS?

I confirmed 120v on both legs at pedestal for 50, and the 30 and 20 amps legs. (yes with a voltmeter)

I confirmed 120v input voltage on both legs at pedestal for 50, and the 30 and 20 amps legs.

However the opposite side of the connector inside the Southwire Surge Guard is dead on all legs.

This is my first true issue with my coach; so I am all excited about who will answer first. This is 2019 Winnebago 29VE. I have trip plan for in the morning, but right now unless I run my generator I will have zero power.

Here is more context as to what happened and notes that I have on the issue.

1. I had just picked up the coach from Winnebago dealer who installed a new 120v receptacle BEFORE the ATS. That receptacle is hot (120v) when ANY shore power is supplied; so they got that part right.
2. I have called Dealer; so waiting for them to track down technical to call back. The coach is still under Mfg warranty.
3. It has the Southguard Surge Guard Model 40100 120/240 50 Amps 60 HZ

Odd observation... When I first got it home and connected the shore power; the generator tried to come on? It was humming and vibrating pretty good but the genset was NOT running? I went inside and verified that there was no power and manual stop button did nothing to stop the humming. I had to disconnect shore power and it stopped. I have since made a setting change within the AGS - EC - 30 to verify it could sense shore power; it could , and to also tell it that the sensor is now in front (Before) of ATS. Since then the oddity of genset trying to start or vibration has stopped; but there is no shore power through the ATS to confirm.

All ideas welcomed.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:29 AM   #2
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Confusing to say the least...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
What could cause no shore power from ATS?

I confirmed 120v on both legs at pedestal for 50, and the 30 and 20 amps legs. (yes with a voltmeter)
I confirmed 120v input voltage on both legs at pedestal for 50, and the 30 and 20 amps legs.
You checked it twice... that is good.
However the opposite side of the connector inside the Southwire Surge Guard is dead on all legs. So the SurgeGuard is dead - not repairable.

This is my first true issue with my coach; so I am all excited about who will answer first.

This is 2019 Winnebago 29VE. I have trip plan for in the morning, but right now unless I run my generator I will have zero power.

Here is more context as to what happened and notes that I have on the issue.

1. I had just picked up the coach from Winnebago dealer who installed a new 120v receptacle BEFORE the ATS. That receptacle is hot (120v) when ANY shore power is supplied; so they got that part right. Are you saying an non-fused receptacle was installed?
2. I have called Dealer; so waiting for them to track down technical to call back. The coach is still under Mfg warranty.
3. It has the Southguard Surge Guard You mean ATS? Model 40100 120/240 50 Amps 60 HZ

Odd observation... When I first got it home and connected the shore power; the generator tried to come on? It was humming and vibrating pretty good but the genset was NOT running? I went inside and verified that there was no power and manual stop button did nothing to stop the humming. I had to disconnect shore power and it stopped. I have since made a setting change within the AGS - EC - 30 to verify it could sense shore power; it could , and to also tell it that the sensor is now in front (Before) of ATS. Since then the oddity of genset trying to start or vibration has stopped; but there is no shore power through the ATS to confirm.
I do not know what an AGS - EC - 30 does, so you are on your own with that.


All ideas welcomed.
I am highly suspicious that when you plugged the shore cord in, it energized the generator and actually tried to "motor" it, that is what it sounds like to me by your description.
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:07 AM   #3
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I am just curious on how many forums did you pose this 'problem'? No wonder you mentioned so I am all excited about who will answer first.
On the Winnie site you did mention "rewired the 12vdc transformer" You did not want to assist us with that tidbit, leave us guessing? But no matter, I have never heard of a 12vdc transformer in my whole career.
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Old 08-22-2020, 01:54 AM   #4
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Man, what a can of worms.

How did they wire in a new 120 VAC outlet to the SP side before the ATS without adding a new panel and breakers?

Is it before the Surgeguard as well?

And I agree with Oldweb on both the generator being backfed with 240 VAC and the fact that there is no such thing as a "12VDC transformer".

I don't think you're going anywhere until you get this back to the dealer to straighten out their wiring.
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:13 AM   #5
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you found a 'dealer' who would actually provide a NEW wiring scheme for a 'unbreakered' outlet/circuit BEFORE your ATS or Main Panel? HOW in the world did they even DO that? Are you SURE you are wording your issues correctly? WHY would you need an outlet 'before' the ATS in the first place?
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:20 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldWEB View Post
I am highly suspicious that when you plugged the shore cord in, it energized the generator and actually tried to "motor" it, that is what it sounds like to me by your description.
I am fairly certain that is what happen. I thought it was strange as I simply plugged up to 50 amp shore power and the generator sounded like it started it up It was actually not, but the noise sounded like it was!!!! When I unplugged the 12vdc transformer it stopped.


1. I had just picked up the coach from Winnebago dealer who installed a new 120v receptacle BEFORE the ATS. That receptacle is hot (120v) when ANY shore power is supplied; so they got that part right. Are you saying an non-fused receptacle was installed? No they installed an inline fuse. FWIW it did not blow.


3. It has the Southguard Surge Guard You mean ATS? Model 40100 120/240 50 Amps 60 HZ
I mean Southwire Surge Guard ATS Model 40100 120/240 50 Amps 60 HZ, at least that is what it says?

Odd observation... When I first got it home and connected the shore power; the generator tried to come on? It was humming and vibrating pretty good but the genset was NOT running? I went inside and verified that there was no power and manual stop button did nothing to stop the humming. I had to disconnect shore power and it stopped. I have since made a setting change within the AGS - EC - 30 to verify it could sense shore power; it could , and to also tell it that the sensor is now in front (Before) of ATS. Since then the oddity of genset trying to start or vibration has stopped; but there is no shore power through the ATS to confirm.
I do not know what an AGS - EC - 30 does, so you are on your own with that.
The Onan EC-30 AGS is my favorite toy on the entire RV. It was dealer installed after the sale but they have obviously failed the installation.
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldWEB View Post
I am just curious on how many forums did you pose this 'problem'? No wonder you mentioned so I am all excited about who will answer first.
On the Winnie site you did mention "rewired the 12vdc transformer" You did not want to assist us with that tidbit, leave us guessing? But no matter, I have never heard of a 12vdc transformer in my whole career.
I posed the EXACT same question on 3 different sites at about the EXACT same time. Winnieowners, IR2 Winnebago Forum, and Thor. I don't play... this is not a fire drill, I can't use my RV as planned. Do you know the cost of a lost RV day? I guess I wanted to see the true effectiveness of each site

I gave the Winnie site the insight of the rewired 12vdc transformer because they asked the right question

But for all on Thor, part of why it went back to dealer was that I discovered the 12vdc transformer was miswired (reversed polarity). I discovered that when do a System Test with the EC-30- and noticed it could not detect (sense) shore power. So while the had to repair that, I also questioned why did they install the 12vdc transformer AFTER the the ATS? The only true way to know if Shore power is on / off the transformer MUST be BEFORE the ATS.

What the 12vdc transformer does is send a 12v signal to pins 13 & 14 on the EC-30 controller, that is how the EC -30 know shore power is on or off. Based on how your EC-30 is set up it knows when to turn the genset on/off automatically when shore power is loss, or when genset is on and shorepower comes on, it will turn the generator off
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16ACE27 View Post
Man, what a can of worms. Yes, finally after 8 months, I have a RV problem!!!, crappy Winnebagos Actually akin to most Thor blamed issues I have seen; this has nothing to do with Mfg. This was a dealer installed option, that I just learned was installed incorrectly and when they tried to fix it they may it worse.

How did they wire in a new 120 VAC outlet to the SP side before the ATS without adding a new panel and breakers? I need to confirm they didn't, I don't think they did, but if they did I don't see, so I will learn later. They did install an inline fuse.

Is it before the Surgeguard as well? I am confusing people here, so let me try to clarify.

I have two Southwire Surge Guard Products.

the 50 amp Surge Guard that I plug into the pedestal that will indicate with green/red LED status of connection. It is all green by the way with no issues.

and the Surge Guard ATS Model 40100 120/240 50A that I believe is where the problem is. The 120 volt outlet was tapped into the Surge Guard ATS Model 40100 120/240 50A. It is grounded, connected to neutral bus, and the hot lead to get 120 volts. That receptacle is working fine and the 12vdc transformer is plugged into it. The the EC-20 can now sense shore power. The problem is there is no shore power on the output side of the Surge Guard ATS Model 40100 120/240 50A.


And I agree with Oldweb on both the generator being backfed with 240 VAC

Yes!!! and the fact that there is no such thing as a "12VDC transformer". Do you need pictures Think about why I have it and it will make sense. First it did not come with the coach but it is standard OEM upgrade. When I had the Onan EC-30 installed, the controller has features based on whether or not ther coach has shore power or not. In order for the EC-30 controller to know, you have to plug a 12vdc transformer into a 120 volt source. The black/red leads out the the 12vdc controller connects to pins #13 & #14 on the Onan EC-30. My original problem was that the dealer made two mistakes. First they installed the transformer AFTER the ATS, second they reversed the pins so polarity was wrong. So in was back at dealer to put outlet in front of ATS and correct the polarity. I think they have corrected both but in the proces my ATS is fried or not working.

I don't think you're going anywhere until you get this back to the dealer to straighten out their wiring.
I think you are right I am packing it up; may return tomorrow, but we had plans at the lake, I may still go but that is long time to run genset 100% of the time... for me anyway.
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:05 AM   #9
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First, I am a retired electrical engineer for a major government contractor. There is no such thing as a DC transformer. There are DC voltage and current sensors that can provide a signal or a AC to DC power supply. In order to get voltage through a transformer you need AC, alternating current. Tesla (AC) vs Edison (DC) for transmitting power. Tesla beat Edison do the the efficient transmission of AC current through increasing the voltage through transformers and then reducing the voltage at the receiving end. That is how it is still done.
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
you found a 'dealer' who would actually provide a NEW wiring scheme for a 'unbreakered' outlet/circuit BEFORE your ATS or Main Panel? HOW in the world did they even DO that? Are you SURE you are wording your issues correctly? WHY would you need an outlet 'before' the ATS in the first place?
Read my post #8 to the ACE.

If there is breaker, I will advise but as of now I only see an inline fuse.

What most are missing is that standard wiring for Onan EC - 30 called for you to install a 12vdc transformer BEFORE or AFTER the ATS. Apparently my dealer didn't know that AFTER rendered a lot of features useless If you install it BEFORE you can use features to have generator automatically turn genset on or off based on how you have it configured. The dealer originally installed my 12vdc AFTER That was NOT what I wanted because my automation would not work. When it is AFTER, there is no way for the Onan EC-30 Controller to know if the 120 volt source is from Genset or Shorepower.
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLP View Post
First, I am a retired electrical engineer for a major government contractor. There is no such thing as a DC transformer. There are DC voltage and current sensors that can provide a signal or a AC to DC power supply. In order to get voltage through a transformer you need AC, alternating current. Tesla (AC) vs Edison (DC) for transmitting power. Tesla beat Edison do the the efficient transmission of AC current through increasing the voltage through transformers and then reducing the voltage at the receiving end. That is how it is still done.
It is a AC to DC power supply. It transforms 120VAC to 12VDC. You may even call it a converter, I am just quoting what was listed as the part on the invoice.

Onan's install manual page 14 States:
Note: AC transformer or 120VAC to DC converter is not supplied.

-12vdc ground side connects to pin #13
+12vdc positive side connects to wire #14
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
It is a AC to DC power supply. It transforms 120VAC to 12VDC. You may even call it a converter, I am just quoting what was listed as the part on the invoice.

Onan's install manual page 14 States:
Note: AC transformer or 120VAC to DC converter is not supplied.

-12vdc ground side connects to pin #13
+12vdc positive side connects to wire #14

What you say here is correct. It is a AC to DC converter or an AC to DC power supply. Not as previously stated a DC transformer.
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Old 08-22-2020, 04:07 AM   #13
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Under advice of my attorney, I thought I would snap a picture of the part the dealership charged me $30 for under the name of of 12vdc transformer. Onan calls the same a AC transformer or 120VAC to 12DC converter. AC/DC Adaptor appears to works too.

My problem is what did they do to cause the connector inside the surge guard for shore power to malfunction? Shore power no longer goes through the ATS. The outlet they added has 120vac and the EC-30 can now sense if shore power is on / off. The problem is when shore power is on, and the sensor knows; but the the actual power is not coming out of output side of surge guard model 40100.

All of this is under warranty and I will take it back to the dealer within a week (if not tomorrow); so we will see what happens. I was hoping for a quick fix tonight to use tomorrow, but that appears to be off the table now.

When this is working as it should, I can pull up to a campsite with generator and ACs running and leave them on, and when I connect to the pedestal, the genset should turn off automatically, likewise if I am connected to shore power, and shore power is loss, the gen should turn on automatically. All of this assumes I am in AUTO mode.
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Old 08-22-2020, 04:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLP View Post
What you say here is correct. It is a AC to DC converter or an AC to DC power supply. Not as previously stated a DC transformer.
I don't think I ever call it a DC Transformer? I thought I was saying 12vdc transformer? It may not be 12vdc transformer in your eye; but if we are going to split hairs lets get what I called it correct. I have had this part for almost 8 months and had not looked at it closely until tonight. The dealer sold me what they called a 12vdc transformer which is logical to me because 120vac is transformed into 12vdc.

The point of this adapter, transformer, converter or power supply is that it needed a 120VAC source BEFORE the ATS which some seem to question. Somehow in the re-installation process to move that 12vdc adapter from an outlet AFTER the ATS to a new installed outlet BEFORE ATS , the dealer may have miswired something to cause it to kill at least the shorepower portion of ATS. When Genset is running the ATS seem to be just fine. Maybe it is somehow stuck on generator flow?
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
I don't think I ever call it a DC Transformer? I thought I was saying 12vdc transformer? It may not be 12vdc transformer in your eye; but if we are going to split hairs lets get what I called it correct. I have had this part for almost 8 months and had not looked at it closely until tonight. The dealer sold me what they called a 12vdc transformer which is logical to me because 120vac is transformed into 12vdc.

The point of this adapter, transformer, converter or power supply is that it needed a 120VAC source BEFORE the ATS which some seem to question. Somehow in the re-installation process to move that 12vdc adapter from an outlet AFTER the ATS to a new installed outlet BEFORE ATS , the dealer may have miswired something to cause it to kill at least the shorepower portion of ATS. When Genset is running the ATS seem to be just fine. Maybe it is somehow stuck on generator flow?

You need to learn the correct language and stop using all the wrong words. I is very hard to follow what you are talking about.


you have shore power, generator, ATS, Electric Panel box, Main breaker, sub breaker, Converter. In that order.


First off. NOTHING goes before the ATS. The chain of command is. Shore power cord connected to INPUT side of ATS. Generate connected to 2nd input side of ATS. RV electric panel box with Main breaker and sub breakers installed connected to OUTPUT side of ATS.

That's it!!! Shore Power, generator, Electric panel. Any load before the electric main breaker is a hack job and against NEC code. No load of any kind is before the panel main breaker.

Also you need to check the voltage at the shore power for 240 volts L1 to L2. And keep checking that all the way back to the main breaker. 240 volts at the main breaker. L1 to L2. You will not get 240 volts from the generator.

You EMS (miss named "surge Protector" needs to see 240 volts. Also your EMS has a 120 sec time dely. It will not pass voltage untill it has gone thru it timed cycle.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavie View Post
You need to learn the correct language and stop using all the wrong words. I is very hard to follow what you are talking about.


you have shore power, generator, ATS, Electric Panel box, Main breaker, sub breaker, Converter. In that order.


First off. NOTHING goes before the ATS. The chain of command is. Shore power cord connected to INPUT side of ATS. Generate connected to 2nd input side of ATS. RV electric panel box with Main breaker and sub breakers installed connected to OUTPUT side of ATS.

That's it!!! Shore Power, generator, Electric panel. Any load before the electric main breaker is a hack job and against NEC code. No load of any kind is before the panel main breaker.

Also you need to check the voltage at the shore power for 240 volts L1 to L2. And keep checking that all the way back to the main breaker. 240 volts at the main breaker. L1 to L2. You will not get 240 volts from the generator.

You EMS (miss named "surge Protector" needs to see 240 volts. Also your EMS has a 120 sec time dely. It will not pass voltage untill it has gone thru it timed cycle.
P.S. I do not know what the dealer sold you for $30.00 But it was NOT a converter.
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by cavie View Post
P.S. I do not know what the dealer sold you for $30.00 But it was NOT a converter.
A picture of what the dealer installed is in post #13. The unit physically says AC/DC adaptor on the label so that is what I will call it. Although it is referenced as I described before by Cummins Onan on page 14 of the installation manual for an EC -30. If I ever get past my current issue, I can get a copy of the manual or someone may wish to google. I am considering on taking coach back to the dealer this morning. Thanks
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavie View Post
You need to learn the correct language and stop using all the wrong words. I is very hard to follow what you are talking about.


you have shore power, generator, ATS, Electric Panel box, Main breaker, sub breaker, Converter. In that order.


First off. NOTHING goes before the ATS. The chain of command is. Shore power cord connected to INPUT side of ATS. Generate connected to 2nd input side of ATS. RV electric panel box with Main breaker and sub breakers installed connected to OUTPUT side of ATS.

That's it!!! Shore Power, generator, Electric panel. Any load before the electric main breaker is a hack job and against NEC code. No load of any kind is before the panel main breaker.

Also you need to check the voltage at the shore power for 240 volts L1 to L2. And keep checking that all the way back to the main breaker. 240 volts at the main breaker. L1 to L2. You will not get 240 volts from the generator.

You EMS (miss named "surge Protector" needs to see 240 volts. Also your EMS has a 120 sec time dely. It will not pass voltage until it has gone thru it timed cycle.
Attached is picture of what I call surge protector. Southwire also calls it a Surge Protector and I don't see it referred to as EMS at all? https://rvpower.southwire.com/produc...r-model-44270/
There is 240 vac across L1 and L2 at the pedestal, at this Surge protector 44270 from Southwire.

At what I call ATS - It is Southwire's Surge Guard model 40100 it has 240v across L1 and L2 on the input side (120vac each leg). This ATS model has no surge protection, but I don't think surge was an issue because the aforementioned surge protector Southwire 44270 was connected.

What I did do this morning at someone's suggestion was to fire up the generator and took measurements on plug end of the shore cord. I got 1.2vac on L1 and 1.0vac on L2.

I follow your questioning on why a 120 outlet is in front of ATS, but it is the required layout by Cummins Onan to fully utilize their EC-30. It was not installed by Winnebago this way but it is authorized option upgrade by Winnebago & Cummins installers. In fact once install Onam actually extends the warranty because they view owners with EC-30 wil better utilize their Onan Gensets due to the automation. Where the plug outlet is located it will never be used for anything other that the 12vdc power supply or AC/DC adapter that is in picture.

Something clearly went wrong with the installation and now I believe my ATS is simply dead. I will return to see what they say. Thanks

FWIW, I started the thread in part as to show my first true issue with my coach. Granted it was Dealer induced but at a very inconvenient to me for me as I have cancelled my trip. I have been reading various Thor dealer issues for almost two years, I am waiting to see how my first live experience turns out with Winnebago.
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:33 PM   #19
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THOR #7035
When I said "Can of worms" I was referring to the mess you have now due to something (or multiple things) being wired incorrectly, not that your RV is a can of worms. Only the person that worked on your RV knowns what he did or attempted to do; everyone else is just guessing based on your interpretation of the symptoms you are experiencing. Mis-interpretation or mis-speaking when describing these symptoms just adds to the confusion and puts more worms in the can.

Anybody with electrical training knows that transformers are AC only devices. Others think of "transformers" as those toy car things that transform from cars/trucks to robots (or whatever) because they transform from one thing to another. So a device that takes AC and makes it into DC for whatever reason may be incorrectly called a transformer, that nomenclature makes it confusing for people who know what an electrical transformer really is; hence, as Cavie said, the need for correct nomenclature when talking electrical stuff.

Surge Guard/Surge Protector is the same thing - an EMS is is much more complicated (and expensive) thing.

Hopefully your dealer can quickly sort out a simple mis-wiring to get you working again, but as this is not a standard installation the chance you get cured by anyone on an internet forum for this issue is pretty small.
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Old 08-22-2020, 03:54 PM   #20
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: England
Posts: 273
THOR #16471
I have read "most" of the manual for the Onan EC-30 and from what I understand it is used exclusively to start/stop the generator when:
1) There is no AC shore power; AND
2) The thermostat is calling for A/C (or I suppose heat?) OR the batteries require a charge.


It is not designed to automatically start if the shore power goes off without either of #2 above requesting it. It is only a safety feature to keep the left behind pets (or maybe grandma?) inside from baking. This is how I read the manual.
So for you 'needing' the 12VDC sensing voltage on the shore side of the ATS is wrong. If anywhere in the coach there is a loss of AC, then the EC-30 should start the generator as you can assume the shore cable is not supplying power.
Am I wrong in this assumption I read from the manual?
Good luck.
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