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Old 11-23-2022, 03:20 PM   #1
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THOR #22209
House batteries dead after 24 hours charging

My 2021 Thor Outlaw 29S house batteries are both dead.


I have maintained both batteries (NAPA 8301 wet cell) from day one.


I also have 200w of solar power.



Over the year and a half that we have had these batteries, I have used about 3/4 of a gallon of distilled water to keep them filled. I check them about every month. No cell has ever been so low as to show the plates.



Yesterday before turning on the generator (I had to start the engine since the batteries were dead), the interior lights would not even turn on.


After about an hour of generator power, I shut the generator off and the lights did stay on.


At that point, I decided to check the specific gravity of the batteries . The specific gravity was about 1125 in each cell (basically dead).



I went ahead and plugged into shore power.


My converter is putting out 13.7V (tested via multi-meter) of power to the batteries.


I checked the specific gravity after charging overnight. The specific gravity is still about 1125 in each cell (basically dead).



We got home 2 weeks ago from a month trip where we were plugged in the entire time.


After we got home we winterized which used the water pump for at most 15 minutes. We also had the propane heat on for about an hour so the furnace used some power. Additionally, we moved the slide in and about 2 or so times.



My Questions: How could the batteries be so dead!


Why are they not charging?


Is it probable that both batteries turned bad at the same time?


Rick

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Old 11-23-2022, 05:07 PM   #2
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What's the status of your Master Power (USE/STORE) switch? It has to be ON (in USE) in order for the batteries to charge.

When on SP or running the generator the indicator light does not indicate the switch is ON - it only indicates voltage on the DC buss from the converter.

There is no "Automatic switching" of this battery disconnect.

It takes a lot more than 1 hour to charge two dead house batteries.

Have you put a voltmeter on the house batteries while connected to SP to verify they are getting charge voltage from the converter?
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Old 11-23-2022, 06:50 PM   #3
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Thanks for the response.


The master switch is on.


I am going to unplug the shore power and let it sit awhile and then check the voltage.


Yesterday when I checked the voltage, with the generator on and the master switch turned on, I got about 13.7v.


I turned off the master switch and it drop to about 12.6.


I know there may be stray voltage there so I will let it sit for a while.


The hydrometer is showing that they are dead.



Rick
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Old 11-23-2022, 06:55 PM   #4
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THOR #22209
Also....


My solar controller is giving me an error "E01" meaning that the batteries are too low power.


I looked up the NAPA warranty and it is only for 1 year. So I guess they do not expect them to last much more than a year.


Rick
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Old 11-23-2022, 07:27 PM   #5
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Clean the terminal connections.
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Old 11-23-2022, 08:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummelr View Post
My 2021 Thor Outlaw 29S house batteries are both dead.


I have maintained both batteries (NAPA 8301 wet cell) from day one.


I also have 200w of solar power.



Over the year and a half that we have had these batteries, I have used about 3/4 of a gallon of distilled water to keep them filled. I check them about every month. No cell has ever been so low as to show the plates.



Yesterday before turning on the generator (I had to start the engine since the batteries were dead), the interior lights would not even turn on.


After about an hour of generator power, I shut the generator off and the lights did stay on.


At that point, I decided to check the specific gravity of the batteries . The specific gravity was about 1125 in each cell (basically dead).



I went ahead and plugged into shore power.


My converter is putting out 13.7V (tested via multi-meter) of power to the batteries.


I checked the specific gravity after charging overnight. The specific gravity is still about 1125 in each cell (basically dead).



We got home 2 weeks ago from a month trip where we were plugged in the entire time.


After we got home we winterized which used the water pump for at most 15 minutes. We also had the propane heat on for about an hour so the furnace used some power. Additionally, we moved the slide in and about 2 or so times.



My Questions: How could the batteries be so dead!


Why are they not charging?


Is it probable that both batteries turned bad at the same time?


Rick
See the AGM Battery posts on website

AGM recommended to me here and the BEST purchase
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Old 11-23-2022, 08:59 PM   #7
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Your use of distilled water seems a bit excessive to me. I suspect your power converter is going into bulk/fast charge mode and not backing down when the batteries are charged. This can in essence boil water in the cells.
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Old 11-23-2022, 09:59 PM   #8
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In response to widdershins:


I talked to the NAPA people this afternoon and they said basically the same thing, that the batteries are being overcharged.


Every time I have ever checked the voltage while charging it is 13.7v.


The documentation says that bulk mode is 14.4V for max of 4 hours.



Any ideas how I can test the converter?


I know it is putting out power.


I can find videos that show how to test if the converter is dead but nothing about how to test if the mode switching is working correctly.


I wonder if I should just buy a new converter before I buy new batteries.


Rick
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Old 11-23-2022, 10:58 PM   #9
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The manual for your converter should have details. If it's a WFCO this provides more info: https://wfcoelectronics.com/theory-of-operation/

Most of the problems I'm aware of with WFCO converters is failing to switch modes. According to the above after 48 hours of absorption charge at 13.6 volts it should go into storage mode at 13.2 volts.

If you're on shore power and the batteries are connected, I could see a lot of potential for loads to make the converter reset the 48 hour timer and stay in absorption mode.

You also have solar, which could be a factor.
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Old 11-24-2022, 12:47 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummelr View Post
In response to widdershins:


I talked to the NAPA people this afternoon and they said basically the same thing, that the batteries are being overcharged.


Every time I have ever checked the voltage while charging it is 13.7v.


The documentation says that bulk mode is 14.4V for max of 4 hours.



Any ideas how I can test the converter?


I know it is putting out power.


I can find videos that show how to test if the converter is dead but nothing about how to test if the mode switching is working correctly.


I wonder if I should just buy a new converter before I buy new batteries.


Rick
13.7 VDC is not float mode and will boil the batteries over the long term.
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Old 11-24-2022, 03:49 AM   #11
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If you bought the rig new, it's possible the batteries were abused on the dealer lot. If they were completely discharged several times, their life expectancy is not long.

Previous to our motorhome we had a trailer... the battery on it refused to hold a charge after only one season of camping... on a NEW trailer.
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Old 12-01-2022, 03:22 AM   #12
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Do you know that solar will not charge dead batteries. If you batteries discharged, because something was left on then solar will not charge. You have to charge batteries at least partially before solar will kick in. Usually the fridge is the biggest drain. Didn’t you close propane, but fridge was on? This would drain them in perhaps 2 hours
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Old 12-01-2022, 05:01 AM   #13
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Do you know that solar will not charge dead batteries. If you batteries discharged, because something was left on then solar will not charge. You have to charge batteries at least partially before solar will kick in. Usually the fridge is the biggest drain. Didn’t you close propane, but fridge was on? This would drain them in perhaps 2 hours
No, the control power on an absorption fridge will NOT drain 2 good house batteries in 2 hours. Why would it use any more battery power than when the propane was on? In fact, it will take longer for the "no propane" fridge to drain the batteries because after the start cycle is "locked out" it won't try to start anymore and the propane solenoid valve will not have any power.

So it would take days to drain the house batteries with an absorption fridge.
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Old 12-01-2022, 05:32 AM   #14
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I am not talking about control power, but power to heating element of fridge. I am familiar with 3 way RV fridges: 12V, 110V or Propane. I said if 110V was not connected and propane closed, while fridge was still left on, then fridge heater is on which drains battery very quickly. It happened to me. We parked and left. After about 2 hours when came back I realized that propane was closed. Batteries were dead by that time
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Old 12-01-2022, 02:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jannadem View Post
I am not talking about control power, but power to heating element of fridge. I am familiar with 3 way RV fridges: 12V, 110V or Propane. I said if 110V was not connected and propane closed, while fridge was still left on, then fridge heater is on which drains battery very quickly. It happened to me. We parked and left. After about 2 hours when came back I realized that propane was closed. Batteries were dead by that time
Most RV absorption fridges are not 3 way fridges; they are 2 way: Propane or 120 VAC. The OP's fridge is not a 3 way fridge.
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Old 12-01-2022, 05:33 PM   #16
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I feel like I'd write those off and replace with at least AGM if not LiFePO4. The Lithium batteries might seem pricey, but you have very few worries about over discharge and they will last at least 10 years unless seriously abused. Our Delano Sprinter came with a big old flooded battery with a whopping 60ah rating. It got swapped out real quick.

Be careful with your solar setup. Most controllers can be damaged if the panels are connected without batteries connected first. I don't know if completely dead batteries could be an issue too, but it might be a good idea to disconnect the panels until you get the battery situation sorted.
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Old 12-02-2022, 01:20 PM   #17
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Early this year I changed the original 2 x 27D wet batteries to 3 x 110Ah AGMs from Vmax tank....
I could not be happier with that.
I also installed a Victron 712 battery monitor.
It has wireless capability so I can check the battery status remotelly.
One month in storage w/o any trickle charge and its holding 12.9V.
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Old 12-03-2022, 05:14 PM   #18
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Thanks everyone! I am still working through all your ideas and suggestions.

Here are today's findings and questions:

This morning I checked the voltages on the back of the Renogy Adventurer 30A PWM solar controller with my multi-meter. I decided to do this because even with my batteries at full charge, I still received an E01 error on the controller. (E01 = Batteries undercharged error)

The Battery voltage read at 11.6V at the controller. The PV voltage read at 22.4 volts (yes, 22.4 volts).

I then disconnected all the wires leading to the controller starting with the PV as stated in the manual.

After I reinstalled the wires, the PV read at 12.1V and the batteries read at 11.6V.

Also, after those readings, I did turn the generator on and got surprising readings.

I have several questions:

1. Was the Renogy controller really sending 22.4 V of power into my 12V batteries before I reset the controller?

2. Why did the PV voltage jump to 13.4V when I turned the generator on? I can understand the Battery voltage jumping to 13.4V but the generator should not have any effect on the PV voltage.

Rick
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Old 12-03-2022, 05:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Hummelr View Post
Thanks everyone! I am still working through all your ideas and suggestions.

Here are today's findings and questions:

This morning I checked the voltages on the back of the Renogy Adventurer 30A PWM solar controller with my multi-meter. I decided to do this because even with my batteries at full charge, I still received an E01 error on the controller. (E01 = Batteries undercharged error)

The Battery voltage read at 11.6V at the controller. The PV voltage read at 22.4 volts (yes, 22.4 volts).

I then disconnected all the wires leading to the controller starting with the PV as stated in the manual.

After I reinstalled the wires, the PV read at 12.1V and the batteries read at 11.6V.

Also, after those readings, I did turn the generator on and got surprising readings.

I have several questions:

1. Was the Renogy controller really sending 22.4 V of power into my 12V batteries before I reset the controller?

2. Why did the PV voltage jump to 13.4V when I turned the generator on? I can understand the Battery voltage jumping to 13.4V but the generator should not have any effect on the PV voltage.

Rick
The PV voltage is the voltage the solar cells are sending to the controller. The battery voltage is the same as the output of the controller to the batteries.

The PV voltage went up with the generator running because the converter was also charging the batteries, pushing the battery voltage up, so the solar charger isn't working as hard to charge the batteries, so less current from the solar cells, so their voltage increases.

I sure hope that 11.6 VDC isn't on your new batteries.
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Old 12-03-2022, 08:52 PM   #20
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Thanks for the info.


These are my old batteries. I will not purchase the new ones until after my new convertor comes in.


I ordered a Replacement Converter WFCO RV Power Centers - 55 Amp from etrailer.com.



Once it arrives and I get it installed, I will go ahead and purchase 2 new AGM batteries.


Rick
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