Finally bit by Schwintek!

[Chateau_Nomad]

After four full seasons and no problems with my Schwintek slide room it finally came to an end! Here's a brief description of what happened:

As usual about this time of year we're prepping for the summer season. I perfectly level the motorhome (as usual) then start extending the slide. It starts moving normally and moves out about 6 inches... then the front motor stops and the slide starts going crooked. Of course I immediately released the button.

After playing contortionist I got the front motor removed... along with the gearbox on the bottom of the motor which fell apart.

There were SUPPOSED to be TWO set screws holding the gear box/drive assembly to the bottom of the motor. Only one was there... and considering the application, NO thread lock was used. NO EXCUSE Lippert!

I found exactly what failed. There's a set screw (silver screw in bottom of pic) driven in from outside which is supposed to prevent the motor from "popping upward" which disengages it from the vertical drive shaft... which turns the drive gears in the tracks.

This screw extends into one of the oval shaped cutouts in the top of the motor. This design is wishful thinking at best; a hillbilly afterthought at worst. In time with normal slide operation, the motor torques back and forth, which eventually bends the screw - allowing the motor to move upward. My motor had twisted so far that the wiring harness unplugged itself... and the motor stopped.

For the curious - there are two fatal flaws in the Schwintek design. First and foremost is the lack of robustness in the design. Second is that STUPID screw afterthought described above. Without a POSITIVE locking method to hold the motor solidly, it's only a matter of how many cycles it will take to bend that screw. I don't think it's necessarily the size of the slide as much as it's the piss-poor engineering.

I should add lack of QC in design and build quality is also a factor. That gearbox falling apart was a function of SLOPPY assembly... a reputable company would NOT put that crap in a $100,000 product. Please read this LIPPERT and pay attention!

I suggest people read Judges very thorough post on the Vroom slide system. Although it's really a travesty that Thor and others continue to use Lippert slide mechanisms instead of going to a better setup.

For those wanting a THOROUGH education about how and why Lippert/Schwintek slide hardware is destined to prematurely fail, please watch these videos. The one detailing the Schwintek system is fairly long, but after watching you will FULLY understand. The other shows the common sense of how Vroom fixed Lippert's pathetic engineering.

Schwintek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUlZej3Nwuw

Vroom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTH3kIByLYM

[Chateau_Nomad]

To follow up on the fix: New motor ordered from Amazon to arrive tomorrow. Larger slightly longer hardened stainless steel screw from Lowes. The Vroom is a little out of budget range at this time.

On lubrication. As the Schwintek video I posted CLEARLY illustrates... who would YOU listen to? An incompetent engineer or a qualified conscientious service tech who's repaired hundreds of these?

I'm thoroughly cleaning the tracks (as usual) and then keeping a very thin coat of the CRC Teflon on the areas indicated in the video.

We'll see how long before I rinse/repeat...

The old motor still works. I'll make a project for my grandson to try assembling the gearbox to working order. Then it's a backup

[TripleGGG]

Good luck with your repairs. I agree with everything you said. I bit the bullet and had both slides upgraded to Vroom on my 2014 36.1 Palazzo. Wasn't cheap but the peace of mind has been worth it. The difference in materials and operation is not even close in comparison.

[Bob Nodine]

Thanks for posting. Enjoyed the video's and saved the links in my slideout folder for future reference if we have slide problems.

[CactusJuice]

How many times would you say that you operated the slide before the failure. Not exact of course, but do you use it a lot like a full timer might or rarely like a weekender-vacationer?

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by CactusJuice

How many times would you say that you operated the slide before the failure. Not exact of course, but do you use it a lot like a full timer might or rarely like a weekender-vacationer?

Not full time. But starting last season and moving forward will be using for continuous 2+ month long trips.

But to date, thinking out loud math:

Count an overnight as one cycle... extend/retract

Bought new in fall 2019
2 or three weekends shakedowns
8 overnights?

2020 season
20 overnights?

2021 season
25 overnights

2022 season
25 overnights

2023 season
50 overnights

Plus cycles when doing maintenance etc.
Estimate 30

So that's 158 cycles. I'm sure it's higher than that... counting dealer cycles, etc. So I'm going with 200 for a rounded up number.

That would be pretty tragic for a full timer... Not even a year!

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Not full time. But starting last season and moving forward will be using for continuous 2+ month long trips.

But to date, thinking out loud math:

Count an overnight as one cycle... extend/retract

Bought new in fall 2019
2 or three weekends shakedowns
8 overnights?

2020 season
20 overnights?

2021 season
25 overnights

2022 season
25 overnights

2023 season
50 overnights

Plus cycles when doing maintenance etc.
Estimate 30

So that's 158 cycles. I'm sure it's higher than that... counting dealer cycles, etc. So I'm going with 200 for a rounded up number.

That would be pretty tragic for a full timer... Not even a year!

In all actuality for a lot of full timers that would be high. Many full timers spend a couple weeks to a month in the same spot so they extend and retract slides less than weekenders. When we full time during the summer (6 months on average) we tend to stay 2 to 3 weeks at a sight with one of 2 overnights between stops. Also our maintenance is done during a longer stop so no additional operation required

Your operation may be more than the average full timer’s.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

In all actuality for a lot of full timers that would be high. Many full timers spend a couple weeks to a month in the same spot so they extend and retract slides less than weekenders. When we full time during the summer (6 months on average) we tend to stay 2 to 3 weeks at a sight with one of 2 overnights between stops. Also our maintenance is done during a longer stop so no additional operation required

Your operation may be more than the average full timer’s.

You're right... I probably way overestimated. We spent 6 weeks in Colorado Rockies last summer, and most campgrounds were at least 4 - 5 days. And even 4 day weekend trips the slide only extends/retracts once.

So yeah ... I definitely over counted. BUT that even makes the Schwintek case for reliability even worse!

Well I got the motor replaced... no easy feat. But it's all synced up and working. The original set screw was 1/2"... I went with a 3/4" grade 5 stainless and all is well. I'm going to replace the back motor set screw with 3/4" also. Copious amount of blue thread locker applied to both!

[Scubawise]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

To follow up on the fix: New motor ordered from Amazon to arrive tomorrow. Larger slightly longer hardened stainless steel screw from Lowes. The Vroom is a little out of budget range at this time.

On lubrication. As the Schwintek video I posted CLEARLY illustrates... who would YOU listen to? An incompetent engineer or a qualified conscientious service tech who's repaired hundreds of these?

I'm thoroughly cleaning the tracks (as usual) and then keeping a very thin coat of the CRC Teflon on the areas indicated in the video.

We'll see how long before I rinse/repeat...

The old motor still works. I'll make a project for my grandson to try assembling the gearbox to working order. Then it's a backup

Do you have a link to the motor?.
Does it fit a 2020 Vegas 25.6?
Pictures of new screws
May keep backup
Thx

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

You're right... I probably way overestimated. We spent 6 weeks in Colorado Rockies last summer, and most campgrounds were at least 4 - 5 days. And even 4 day weekend trips the slide only extends/retracts once.

So yeah ... I definitely over counted. BUT that even makes the Schwintek case for reliability even worse!

Well I got the motor replaced... no easy feat. But it's all synced up and working. The original set screw was 1/2"... I went with a 3/4" grade 5 stainless and all is well. I'm going to replace the back motor set screw with 3/4" also. Copious amount of blue thread locker applied to both!

Engineers I have had the opportunity to talk to say the issues with Schwintek are

Slides too large for a rack and pinion slide system.
Slide room box not built correctly (not squared)
Slide room box not square to the opening in the RV wall and the RV floor.
Rack and pinion system improperly installed

According to them, if the slide is built and installed correctly the slide will operate correctly even if the DV itself is not level.

IMHO the biggest problem with Schwintec is not the system itself but rather with the misuse (large slides) and bad installation. Again, my opinion and my current rig has one Schwintec (small bedroom slide) and two other slides with different systems.

May your repairs provide many trouble free trips.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

Do you have a link to the motor?.
Does it fit a 2020 Vegas 25.6?
Pictures of new screws
May keep backup
Thx

On newer rigs there's usually two types of motors:

Part # 236575 300:1 Black Cap
Part # 287298 500:1 Clear Cap

As one of the videos I posted shows, they are NOT interchangeable... but other than the cap they look identical.

You might be able to pull back the rubber strip on the inside wall to see your motor cap, but to be certain you'll need to pull the motor... NOT a fun task! If you can see the cap, I'd go with that for a backup... 50:50 chance of correct!

Ours was clear cap:
287298 RV in-Wall Slide-Out Motor, 500:1 High Torque Gear Ratio,Slide Out Motor Assembly Compatible with lippert Schwintek in-Wall Slide System for Travel Trailer and Camper (Three Year Warranty) https://a.co/d/60t559T

I got a small box of the screws from Lowes. I'll check tomorrow and follow up, but I just took the original screw with me and matched it up... it was 1/2" so I upped the length to 3/4" which worked great. I THINK #8 metric, but again I'll double check tomorrow and update.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

Engineers I have had the opportunity to talk to say the issues with Schwintek are

Slides too large for a rack and pinion slide system.
Slide room box not built correctly (not squared)
Slide room box not square to the opening in the RV wall and the RV floor.
Rack and pinion system improperly installed

According to them, if the slide is built and installed correctly the slide will operate correctly even if the DV itself is not level.

IMHO the biggest problem with Schwintec is not the system itself but rather with the misuse (large slides) and bad installation. Again, my opinion and my current rig has one Schwintec (small bedroom slide) and two other slides with different systems.

May your repairs provide many trouble free trips.

Thanks! . I think key with mine (and in the posted video) is making sure that set screw stays in place, which (theoretically) keeps the motor from popping up off the drive shaft. Hopefully the longer screws and thread locker does the trick!

[Judge]

80% of the coaches out there will eventually be bit by the Schwintek design. There are 2 or 3 key failure points and the tiny single set screw to hold the motor down is one of them.

Vroom changes the gear box and uses a 4-bolt mount shown by the arrows to correct the motor mounting design mistake. Vroom also has heavy duty bearings for the track instead of nylon rollers as well as other improvements.

Anyone planning to keep their coach for any length of time or you don't want to always worry if the slide will work or not, you would be well-served by replacing the Schwintek Mechanism with Vroom; especially if a costly repair is in front of you. The system is worth every penny. I put over 13,000 miles on our Alaska trip and it was the roughest roads you can imagine. I'm sure it would have caused issues if I still had the Schwintek. After over 2 1/2 years I haven't had any issues with Vroom.

SlimRack at least uses a large bolt to hold the motor in place as shown in the picture below.

SlimRack would be a better choice than Schwintek for larger slides..... although Lippert bought them as part of the Kwikee acquisition a few years ago.

Schwintek requires such tight tolerances that there is no way an RV manufacturer could hold to those tolerances. That alone exposes all of the weaknesses in the design of the Schwintek Mechanism.

SlimRack doesn't require as tight of tolerance and it is also a floating system, which helps prevent the tracks and gears from binding when things aren't perfect.

Dynamax uses SlimRack for their smaller coaches. The Dynamax I'm planning to buy uses SlimRack. I contacted Brian Vroom and he said they can modify his slide system to replace the SlimRack if I have any issues with it. He has replaced about 20 of them but that's nothing compared to the numbers of Schwintek's he has replaced. He also said SlimRack is a better system but it is louder and can sound like a coffee grinder, which is what I witnessed myself.

I think Winnebago has also switched from Schwintek to SlimRack on their smaller coaches as well.

[Chateau_Nomad]

What would make sense is if Thor offered Vroom as an upgrade. But without any incentive, the Schwintek woes will continue. Vroom's design isn't perfect, but it's a night and day improvement on the Schwintek system.

IMO Schwintek is more of a lightweight design which would be appropriate for overhead bunks and bed lifts, etc. But slide rooms require a MUCH more robust hardware set.

I actually considered finding a way to drill a hole in the motor housing, or attaching a solid mounting point for that set screw... then doubling the size of the screw. It's not the ONLY weakness, but that's the primary failure point of the Schwintek system.

[CactusJuice]

OK. The Schwintek is not without its problems. But I am not buying that there is an 80% failure rate as a poster above asserts. Think about it. These slides are used by Thor, Forest River, and others, accounting for the vast majority of RVs sold. Some have one, two, or even four slides on them. They have been installing them for years. So there must be millions of them out there. If they had that kind of failure rate, the manufacturers would have dumped them. There would be far more than the relative (to millions) handful of anecdotal reports on internet websites. I'd hazard a guess that most people never have a problem with them during their ownership experience.

Slides are problematic in general I suppose with lots of variables. At least the Schwintek is easy for a skilled DIYer to service as evidenced by this thread. That certainly is not true of a hydraulically operated slide and I don't think it is with a rack and pinion slide either.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by CactusJuice

OK. The Schwintek is not without its problems. But I am not buying that there is an 80% failure rate as a poster above asserts. Think about it. These slides are used by Thor, Forest River, and others, accounting for the vast majority of RVs sold. Some have one, two, or even four slides on them. They have been installing them for years. So there must be millions of them out there. If they had that kind of failure rate, the manufacturers would have dumped them. There would be far more than the relative (to millions) handful of anecdotal reports on internet websites. I'd hazard a guess that most people never have a problem with them during their ownership experience.

Slides are problematic in general I suppose with lots of variables. At least the Schwintek is easy for a skilled DIYer to service as evidenced by this thread. That certainly is not true of a hydraulically operated slide and I don't think it is with a rack and pinion slide either.

You certainly don't have to buy what I've said.

But you can walk around a few campgrounds and do your own survey of people with a Schwintek Slide Mechanism and as them how long they have had the coach and if they ever had a slide issues; assuming their slides are over 15 feet in length.

As was stated above.... the Schwintek system is fine for bunks or small and lightweight slides. But if you have a slide over 15' and / or you have a slide that carries significant weight, there is high probability.... greater than 50%.... that eventually there will be a failure.

I am in the process of purchasing a Dynamax and I was able to speak to the General Manager as part of my due diligence. He told me the Schwintek system is a good system for certain applications. But he also said the tight tolerance requirements needed for reliable operation can't be routinely met in an RV manufacturing environment.

When he moved over to Dynamax he went with SlimRack because the motor mounting mechanism is superior and excessively tight manufacturing tolerances are not required for reliable operation.

Lippert is not motivated to change the design because they make serious money off selling spare parts for repairs. I wouldn't be surprised if they make more money selling parts for repairs than they do on complete systems for a new coach. I know of two coaches that had the entire Schwintek mechanism replaced on their coaches more than once over the span of 4 - 5 years.

RV dealers also make a fortune in parts and labor repairing and replacing Schwintek mechanisms.

No one is going to dump a cash cow for something a little more expensive that breaks far less.

And if there wasn't a market for replacing the crappy Schwintek Mechanism, how could someone engineer a better system and become so successful that they have to build a 4-bay facility dedicated strictly for replacing nothing but Schwintek slides and replacing thousands of them in just a few years? And why would independent RV repair shops start lining up to become a authorized installer?

Oh... and I heard Tiffin is now doing Vroom installs in their Red Bay, AL Service Center. That's enough to tell you there are enough failures to find a better solution.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

What would make sense is if Thor offered Vroom as an upgrade. But without any incentive, the Schwintek woes will continue. Vroom's design isn't perfect, but it's a night and day improvement on the Schwintek system.

IMO Schwintek is more of a lightweight design which would be appropriate for overhead bunks and bed lifts, etc. But slide rooms require a MUCH more robust hardware set.

I actually considered finding a way to drill a hole in the motor housing, or attaching a solid mounting point for that set screw... then doubling the size of the screw. It's not the ONLY weakness, but that's the primary failure point of the Schwintek system.

Brian spoke to several OEM's 3 or 4 years ago and they all turned him down. They all basically said the same thing...... "RV buyers aren't going to want to pay $1000 - $2000 more for a coach in order to get a better slide mechanism."

I call that very short-sighted..... but that sounds about right when the bean counters are making the decisions. I'm sure pissing off LCI also factored into it and how it would impact LCI's pricing on other system components.

I mentioned above I spoke to the GM at Dynamax. He told me he also contacted Vroom about making it a standard offering. Brian didn't want to go that route at this point. I think he realizes the demand is strong enough it can survive on its own right now without OEM support.

The only weakness with the Vroom system is that changing the motor is more time consuming. You have to remove the wipe-seals to get to all four motor mounting bolts. It wouldn't surprise me if they improve that aspect. They are already on third or fourth generation based on enhancements.

Other than that.... the Vroom Slide Mechanism is about as bullet-proof as you can get for a major RV system. The ability to quickly and easily disengage the motors to push the slide in manually if a motor fails is absolutely brilliant.

Once I have my new Dynamax... if I have a failure with the SlimRack slide beyond a slide motor or controller replacement, I'll be heading to Tucson to have it replaced by Vroom without hesitation.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Thanks! . I think key with mine (and in the posted video) is making sure that set screw stays in place, which (theoretically) keeps the motor from popping up off the drive shaft. Hopefully the longer screws and thread locker does the trick!

I'm not sure thread-locker is going to help much. I'm not sure about your coach but the motor set screw on the Omni / Magnitude goes through the plastic base of the wipe seal. There was no real metal or threads for the screw to bite into. That may not be the case on your coach.

Also, the 500:1 motors produce so much torque for the big slides I have seen that small setscrew bent up and even sheared off.... both leading to the motor lifting out of the bearing block and causing that loud popping sound and causing the motor to slip.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Judge

I'm not sure thread-locker is going to help much. I'm not sure about your coach but the motor set screw on the Omni / Magnitude goes through the plastic base of the wipe seal. There was no real metal or threads for the screw to bite into. That may not be the case on your coach.

Also, the 500:1 motors produce so much torque for the big slides I have seen that small setscrew bent up and even sheared off.... both leading to the motor lifting out of the bearing block and causing that loud popping sound and causing the motor to slip.

My front motor was the problem child... which was lucky because the rear one is a REAL B**** to get at.

The underlying cause is there was NO WAY a 1/2" screw inserted into the large oval opening on the motor will hold it in place. The twisting torque of the motor (mine's 500:1) back and forth eventually overwhelms the TOO SHORT screw. And once the motor rotates out of the screws reach, it soon pops up off the bearing block. Mine actually twisted the wiring harness enough to unplug it.

The longer screw I installed is merely a stop-gap... there's STILL just nothing positively holding the motor in place!

The screws on mine go through the wipe seal base, and then through what looks like about 1/8" metal... probably the flange for the slide mount.

The thread locker won't help one iota holding the motor... but hopefully it won't let the screw back out somewhere in the middle of nowhere. But I now have extras.

What you said about a "cash cow" is so true! Just think about the mobile tech guy in the video I posted. VERY telling he said NOTHING about how the failures could be prevented. Of COURSE! Biting the feeding hand. But heck I don't blame him...

[Chateau_Nomad]

Here's the screws I got. The two loose ones are the originals I removed. The smaller ones are an exact thread match... Just 1/4" longer than the originals.

The larger ones are in case the hole strips - I can possibly drill and thread a larger screw.