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Old 07-30-2020, 11:10 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by pstandiford View Post
According to 49 CFR 571 - FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS a trailer is defined as "Trailer means a motor vehicle with or without motive power, designed for carrying persons or property and for being drawn by another motor vehicle."
Now I know you are going to say that a TOAD is not designed for being drawn by another motor vehicle. As soon as you but a TOW bar on a motor vehicle you have changed the design of the motor vehicle such that it is not designed to be towed. Please stop trying to convince people that they don't need a braking system in a TOAD just to prove your point. Federal law says it is a trailer so if you need a brake on a trailer in a state you need it on your TOAD.

There are a couple of issues with your comment.
1. FMVSS apply to manufacturers of vehicles, not owners or operators. They are a set of laws requiring things to be designed and built in specific ways.
2. If you or I put a tow bar on a vehicle it does not change what the vehicle was designed or manufactured for. Its still a vehicle and not a trailer. If that were the case, once you put a tow bar on your vehicle you would be required to have it inspected as a trailer.
3. I am not trying to convince anyone they do not need a braking system. I am saying it is NOT required by law as people in these forums like to claim. It may be in some states, I have only looked through a handful of laws and haven't found one yet that is required. I agree that having a braking system is a good idea and is helpful, as is driving slower and leaving more distance.

Federal law does not say TOADS are trailers and a tow brake system are not required on them.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:37 AM   #42
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If it's being towed: it is considered a trailer WHILE it is being towed.
Unhook it; and it's a motor vehicle again!
The term "Toad" is ours. The DMV doesn't recognize it.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:43 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
If it's being towed: it is considered a trailer WHILE it is being towed.
Unhook it; and it's a motor vehicle again!
The term "Toad" is ours. The DMV doesn't recognize it.
Please cite a law that says that. None I have been able to find make that distinction. Definitions are based on what it was designed and manufactured as.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:49 AM   #44
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Amen...
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:58 AM   #45
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Whether or not required by law, its always safer when the toad has a braking system.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:19 AM   #46
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Whether or not required by law, its always safer when the toad has a braking system.
True no argument there.

Only point I am making is it is not required by law and you will not get a ticket or any other issues without a braking system. It just adds to piece of mind and makes things safer.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:35 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Harley97 View Post
True no argument there.

Only point I am making is it is not required by law and you will not get a ticket or any other issues without a braking system. It just adds to piece of mind and makes things safer.
In California. Other states define a TOAD as a trailer and require a supplemental braking system or demonstrate the motorhome can stop the combined load in a certain distance from a certain speed.

If, however, the combined weight of the motorhome and TOAD exceeds the GCWR of the motorhome by 1 pound it has exceeded the designed limits of the motorhomes braking system.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:39 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by EA37TS View Post
In California. Other states define a TOAD as a trailer and require a supplemental braking system or demonstrate the motorhome can stop the combined load in a certain distance from a certain speed.

If, however, the combined weight of the motorhome and TOAD exceeds the GCWR of the motorhome by 1 pound it has exceeded the designed limits of the motorhomes braking system.
As people list states I do look up the laws, so far I have not found one state that requires brakes.

I agree with the weight and braking system part. I have said that multiple times here. Slowing down and adding more distance is just as effective at avoiding accidents.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:45 AM   #49
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But the question is: "What is it; that they don't require brakes on?
Without getting into the weeds here: States require brakes on trailers...


... And anything being towed by a motor vehicle is defined as such.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:46 AM   #50
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This is not Good v. Evil, but characteristic of a legal challenge.

I, for one, will be watching until it gets boring.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:52 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
But the question is: "What is it; that they don't require brakes on?
Without getting into the weeds here: States require brakes on trailers...


... And anything being towed by a motor vehicle is defined as such.
Look up the definition of a trailer in the state. Most say designed to be towed. Motor vehicles are not designed to be towed and are not trailers. I posted CA definition of a trailer earlier.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:53 AM   #52
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One point I have not seen mentioned, no brakes on toad, no brakes in a breakaway situation.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:53 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by The_Breeze View Post
This is not Good v. Evil, but characteristic of a legal challenge.

I, for one, will be watching until it gets boring.

Exactly, just making a point about the legality that everyone claims.

I fully agree that brakes are a good thing on a TOAD

Glad it is entertaining
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:56 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by petefoss View Post
One point I have not seen mentioned, no brakes on toad, no brakes in a breakaway situation.
I am curious, has anyone heard of or seen a TOAD breakaway? Ive seen trailers do it, usually due to improper hook up, but I feel like people are a little more cautious with a TOAD. The tow bar and safety chains would have to fail.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:23 AM   #55
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So it really doesn’t matter if it’s not illegal, a court and a jury of your peers will find you guilty Incase of a personal injury. It’s pretty simple for any attorney to sell the point that someone has a 100k or more coach, a 30k toad and they wouldn’t put on a 1k brake system and if they did that might had saved 5year old Timmy’s life. It doesn’t have to be illegal. Your insurance can deny a claim if they feel there is negligence. Insurance companies don’t make money for paying out claims. Something can be legal but still morally wrong. I haven’t seen a toad brake away in real time but I have seen the aftermath and it’s not pretty. I was moving to Dallas years ago and saw what happens when a tire comes off a toad at 70 mph.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:29 AM   #56
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So it really doesnít matter if itís not illegal, a court and a jury of your peers will find you guilty Incase of a personal injury. Itís pretty simple for any attorney to sell the point that someone has a 100k or more coach, a 30k toad and they wouldnít put on a 1k brake system and if they did that might had saved 5year old Timmyís life. It doesnít have to be illegal. Your insurance can deny a claim if they feel there is negligence. Insurance companies donít make money for paying out claims. Something can be legal but still morally wrong. I havenít seen a toad brake away in real time but I have seen the aftermath and itís not pretty. I was moving to Dallas years ago and saw what happens when a tire comes off a toad at 70 mph.
Court and insurance are way different. Insurance is a private company and can pretty much do as they please. Court cannot find you guilty without a law being broken. Civil court also has to find based on laws.

I have searched for accidents caused or worsened by a lack of brakes on a TOAD and have not found any. In every case it was excessive speed, or following too close. I havent even seen a TOAD break free.

A tire coming off a TOAD would suck, but in that case I am not sure extra brakes would help much.
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:21 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Harley97 View Post
Court and insurance are way different. Insurance is a private company and can pretty much do as they please. Court cannot find you guilty without a law being broken. Civil court also has to find based on laws.

I have searched for accidents caused or worsened by a lack of brakes on a TOAD and have not found any. In every case it was excessive speed, or following too close. I havent even seen a TOAD break free.

A tire coming off a TOAD would suck, but in that case I am not sure extra brakes would help much.
You donít have to be guilty to lose. I work for a bank we are sued all the time. I donít work for that one that makes fake accounts. Most of the time we have an ironclad case of breach of contact or something a long those lines. Overdraft fees is another huge one. It doesnít really cost us any money to fight a lot of these but where we always lose is with company reputation. We donít settle because we want to itís because itís cheaper to make these things go quietly away. If you are a small business owner though and you have to go to court you might win the case but the negative publicity could cost you a ton of money. With the example of that small business owner and god forbid someone is killed because your toad broke lose, but say you were legal and you won your court case so you are not liable for monetary damages. The so called victims can put their story out there make you look negligent you could lose your business because people boycott you. I am not saying itís right but life is all about hedging. Looking at this thread the majority agree that brakes are a must even if they arenít required. In todayís day and age with social media that has become the court that matters most.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:53 PM   #58
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California's definition of a trailer:
"A ďtrailer coachĒ is a vehicle, other than a motor vehicle, designed for human habitation or human occupancy for industrial, professional, or commercial purposes, for carrying property on its own structure, and for being drawn by a motor vehicle. CVC ß635."
(Bold Font added by me)
Once you put the Towbar on the front of a Motor Vehicle: it becomes a "Toad".
That Towbar is designed to make the vehicle capable of being towed; therefore it extends the definition of trailer to the vehicle it is attache to.
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Old 07-31-2020, 12:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Harley97 View Post
No it does not.

The California Vehicle code requires brakes on trailers:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...r=3.&article=1.

The CVC definition of a trailer does not include a TOAD:

Law section.

The CVC does not mention TOADS except here:
https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle...%20tow%20dolly.

If you are going to claim there is a law requiring something or prohibiting something it is a good idea to cite the actual law
Based on the wording in the document Law Section a TOAD is a trailer.

"A ďtrailerĒ is a vehicle designed for carrying persons or property on its own structure and for being drawn by a motor vehicle and so constructed that no part of its weight rests upon any other vehicle. "

A TOAD is a vehicle designed for carrying persons or property on its own structure (TOAD is a vehicle that carries property)

and for being drawn by a motor vehicle (drawn by motorhome with installed designed specific baseplate and towbar)

and so constructed that no part of its weight rests upon any other vehicle (TOAD weight does not rest on the motorhome)

IMHO, based on the Calif definition, a TOAD when attached to the motorhome by a towbar becomes a trailer and over 3000 pounds requires brakes.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:09 PM   #60
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... Unless you can point to a specific statute that excludes Toads from having to conform...
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