Ev toad ??

[Dan-sr@perra-us.net]

Has anyone considered or is now using an EV as a TOAD? I am not planning to get an EV anytime soon, so this is just a theoretical question. Presumably IT should be possible to charge the EV from the MH generator and Most campgrounds have 50amp service. I assume that it is too much to expect that the EV power cord would plug into the standard 50amp socket that we use to connect our motorhomes. Here are the questions to consider:

1. Would you be able to charge an EV while on the road using the MH generator? What is the minimum sized generator for a four-hour full charge for example?

2. Could a campground 50amp service be used for an EV rapid charge? If not then how quickly can an EV be brought up to full charge assuming 70% depleted.

3. What additional equipment would be required beyond the appropriate power cord? Would there need have some sort of portable charger for example?

This is just an academic question. We all know that if everyone got an EV tomorrow the electric grid would be unable to handle the load. We all know about the problems of disposing or recycling spent batteries. We all know about the danger of EV battery fires. And we all know that all the minerals for making EV batteries comes for China. Let's not get up on our soap boxes about all the shortcomings of EVs and stick to the technical aspects.

[BuzzDoc]

EVs can’t be charged from your generator or the CS 50amp. Needs far higher amp service. Home have to install large amperage special chargers.

And finally. EVs can only be towed on a trailer. No dolly or flat towing.

[gectisme]

Originally Posted by BuzzDoc

EVs can’t be charged from your generator or the CS 50amp. Needs far higher amp service. Home have to install large amperage special chargers.

And finally. EVs can only be towed on a trailer. No dolly or flat towing.

This is not correct. We don’t / can’t use our Nissan Leaf EV as a toad but my wife has met us at a campground driving it. The charger plugs right into the 50 amp campground connection and charges fast. We could also plug it into any regular 120v 15amp outlet but it charges slower.

So yes, if we put it on a trailer and pulled it behind our RV, we could charge it by running the generator and running an extension cord. The Leaf can’t be towed 4 down unfortunately. Not sure if any of the EV’s can be towed 4 down yet.

At the 50 amp service it takes about 6-7 hours to go from less than 10% charge to the full 210+ miles charge.
Hope that helps,
Jody

[DavidEM]

Gectisme is correct as far as he goes. You would need a J1772, Level 2 charging station like this one that plugs into the campground's 220V/50 A outlet- https://ev-lectron.com/products/lect...gaAupLEALw_wcB

If you want to use a 110V/30 amp shore power outlet you will need a Level 1, J1772 charging station like this one, but it will be limited to 15A- https://ev-lectron.com/products/lect...EaAsI1EALw_wcB

On the question about charging from your RV's generator, yes that can be done, but since all RV generators less than 10 kW are 110V you will be limited to the Level 1 charger which will plug into the 110V external outlet on most RVs.

EVs vary from 50 kW to about 100 kW in internal battery capacity. The Level 2 charger will take about 50000/220*48 = 5 hrs to recharge the smallest battery from scratch. It will take 50,000/110*15 = 30 hours using the Level 1 charger from scratch.

David

[HMCSW]

Originally Posted by Dan-sr@perra-us.net

Has anyone considered or is now using an EV as a TOAD? I am not planning to get an EV anytime soon, so this is just a theoretical question. Presumably IT should be possible to charge the EV from the MH generator and Most campgrounds have 50amp service. I assume that it is too much to expect that the EV power cord would plug into the standard 50amp socket that we use to connect our motorhomes. Here are the questions to consider:

1. Would you be able to charge an EV while on the road using the MH generator? What is the minimum sized generator for a four-hour full charge for example?

2. Could a campground 50amp service be used for an EV rapid charge? If not then how quickly can an EV be brought up to full charge assuming 70% depleted.

3. What additional equipment would be required beyond the appropriate power cord? Would there need have some sort of portable charger for example?

This is just an academic question. We all know that if everyone got an EV tomorrow the electric grid would be unable to handle the load. We all know about the problems of disposing or recycling spent batteries. We all know about the danger of EV battery fires. And we all know that all the minerals for making EV batteries comes for China. Let's not get up on our soap boxes about all the shortcomings of EVs and stick to the technical aspects.

Many of the RV parks in the Northwest where we live and travel actually state NO EV charging aloud.

[atreis]

Originally Posted by BuzzDoc

EVs can’t be charged from your generator or the CS 50amp. Needs far higher amp service. Home have to install large amperage special chargers.

And finally. EVs can only be towed on a trailer. No dolly or flat towing.

EVs can indeed be charged from your generator, and (if the park allows it) from the CS 50 amp. Assuming the park has properly wired their 50 amp outlets split-phase, if they don't allow charging that's most likely due to them not wanting to pay for it, not any technical reason. At home, most people use either 240V 32 amp, or 240V 40 amp level 2 chargers for overnight charging. Larger amperage chargers are available, but very rarely needed. Level 1 chargers (120V 12 amp) also work for overnight charging if one doesn't go very far during the day.

Currently, there are no EVs that can be towed 4 down.

There are several front wheel drive models that can be towed using a dolly, including the Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, upcoming Nissan Ariya, Polestar 2, and a handful of other FWD models.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Many say "no"... but never say "why".

Some thoughts... Many/most EVs have regenerative braking which allows the motor to essentially work in reverse when coasting, accomplishing two functions: Slowing the car AND dumping that "juice" back into the battery. For less aggressive drivers, this can nearly eliminate brake use, AND adds what would otherwise be wasted energy back into the battery.

So... wouldn't flat towing recharge the battery? Yes... technically. But, dragging a car with extra resistance in it's drivetrain is going to penalize your MH fuel mileage. AND... the biggie is few EVs have a built-in circuit cutoff/protection to disconnect the regen charging when battery is full. Can you say "fire"??

I would LOVE to tow our Chevy Bolt. Chevy explicitly says NO. I don't relish voiding the warranty experimenting.

My takeaways...
IF MH mileage didn't take an incredible hit (like dropping from 9 - ish mpg to like 5 - ish, it might be feasible. Tough decision for that trade-off. But I think the main charging would come from towing regen.

You're rarely if ever starting at zero charge... usually from 1/3 or more, so charging time isn't as painful as often portrayed. I have 240volt/50 amp at home, but you won't find that at a campground. 50amp camp outlets are just two legs of 50amp/120 volts. Our portable charging box which came with the car accepts an adapter plug, so it can be plugged into a standard "household" 15 or 20 amp outlet... like you find on a campground pedestal. However, you're only getting 12 "EV miles" per 16 amp charge hour. Do the math.

Other than campgrounds not allowing EV charging (from 120 volts?? C'mon man!), and the drag from regen charging - I think it's all upside! Ours costs less than 2¢ per fuel mile, vs our previous RAV4 (10¢ per fuel mile).

Getting EV manufacturers to install a simple cutout circuit is the challenge. Rivian does it... but that's a pricey, heavy vehicle.

[Lt Keefer]

Originally Posted by HMCSW

Many of the RV parks in the Northwest where we live and travel actually state NO EV charging aloud.

That is what I noticed in Wyoming. But I have seen a Tesla towing a Casita at a campground in Central Texas and both were plugged in.

[atreis]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I would LOVE to tow our Chevy Bolt. Chevy explicitly says NO. I don't relish voiding the warranty experimenting.

You can tow it using a dolly. For the 2022 EUV, see page 287 of the owners manual, which talks specifically about towing behind an RV.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by atreis

You can tow it using a dolly. For the 2022 EUV, see page 287 of the owners manual, which talks specifically about towing behind an RV.

Yep... read that. Seems like EV makers go to great lengths to make simple things difficult. "Open the hood... wait two minutes... disconnect the negative battery terminal..."
When a simple toggle switch would work. Then there's that dolly thing...

And why not just offer a $200 software enabled option which COMPLETELY disconnects the electric drivetrain? That's how "park" and "e-brake" works... just add a few lines of code and a few feet of wire.

I DO know one thing... the first EV manufacturer offering a SIMPLE flat-tow setup won't set any sales records... but every motorhome owner will want one!

[Dan-sr@perra-us.net]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Yep... read that. Seems like EV makers go to great lengths to make simple things difficult. "Open the hood... wait two minutes... disconnect the negative battery terminal..."
When a simple toggle switch would work. Then there's that dolly thing...

And why not just offer a $200 software enabled option which COMPLETELY disconnects the electric drivetrain? That's how "park" and "e-brake" works... just add a few lines of code and a few feet of wire.

I DO know one thing... the first EV manufacturer offering a SIMPLE flat-tow setup won't set any sales records... but every motorhome owner will want one!

Here is a thought, since an EV does not have engine cooling to consider, why not have the EV actively "assist" with its own towing? I am sure none of the EV Manufacturers would do it, but some enterprising company could come up with an add on module that would slave the EV to the motorhome for throttle and breaking. They do this with diesel locomotives and have been since the 1930s or 1940s. After all Diesel locomotives are Hybrid EVs. That way the TOAD would no longer be just dead weight. Also, by the way IMHO turning the motorhome into a hybrid with a main engine that turns a generator to supply electricity to the drive motors is where I think the MH and truck manufacturers need to focus. They could have a smaller battery pack because the unit generates its own power. The battery power could be used as a supplement to the generator output for uphill climbs.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Dan-sr@perra-us.net

Here is a thought, since an EV does not have engine cooling to consider, why not have the EV actively "assist" with its own towing? I am sure none of the EV Manufacturers would do it, but some enterprising company could come up with an add on module that would slave the EV to the motorhome for throttle and breaking. They do this with diesel locomotives and have been since the 1930s or 1940s. After all Diesel locomotives are Hybrid EVs. That way the TOAD would no longer be just dead weight. Also, by the way IMHO turning the motorhome into a hybrid with a main engine that turns a generator to supply electricity to the drive motors is where I think the MH and truck manufacturers need to focus. They could have a smaller battery pack because the unit generates its own power. The battery power could be used as a supplement to the generator output for uphill climbs.

Interesting! And no supplemental braking system needed... just utilize regen braking... which backfeeds the battery.

Even if power use/saving was a wash - it fills a void. Interesting concept for sure!

[atreis]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

And why not just offer a $200 software enabled option which COMPLETELY disconnects the electric drivetrain? That's how "park" and "e-brake" works... just add a few lines of code and a few feet of wire.

Totally with you on that. Someday someone will... Probably Jeep.

Really love the idea of an EV with a "TOAD mode" that is aware that it's being towed flat and has a special mode for that, using regen when it detects slowing down (and the batteries aren't full), helps some when accelerating, and freewheeling when just going at a steady speed. That should all be detectable and software to control it probably wouldn't be that bad. I don't really see it happening soon given the very small target market, but it would be awesome.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Dan-sr@perra-us.net

Here is a thought, since an EV does not have engine cooling to consider, why not have the EV actively "assist" with its own towing? I am sure none of the EV Manufacturers would do it, but some enterprising company could come up with an add on module that would slave the EV to the motorhome for throttle and breaking. They do this with diesel locomotives and have been since the 1930s or 1940s. After all Diesel locomotives are Hybrid EVs. That way the TOAD would no longer be just dead weight. Also, by the way IMHO turning the motorhome into a hybrid with a main engine that turns a generator to supply electricity to the drive motors is where I think the MH and truck manufacturers need to focus. They could have a smaller battery pack because the unit generates its own power. The battery power could be used as a supplement to the generator output for uphill climbs.

I have seen videos of prototype toads being tested that are way ahead of that.

In one case, the BEV toad follows a short distance behind the motorhome using simplified autonomous driving controls. There is no need to even connect a tow bar.

Long term the technology is being developed to have multiple cars following each other closely at highway speeds in order to significantly reduce drag and therefore improve energy efficiency.

Short term I personally like the idea of BEV toad connected to ICE motorhome with tow bar so it can assist motorhome with acceleration and braking. And it would also charge while driving down the highway as needed. It has all been discussed on different threads.

[Travelin' Texans]

Before they start designing & perfecting all these EVs, towable EVs, battery powered motorhomes, someone better be finding affordable, non fossil fuel, tree hugger approved ways to make electricity to power all of them.
I'm hoping in a couple years when someone that doesn't appear to be drugged all the time is in charge this EV stuff will back off at least til the infrastructure is able to better provide for it.

[DavidEM]

I think it is a matter of pushing up demand- EVs, changing fossil fuel heating to heat pumps, etc and supporting supply. But I agree, the supply will not catch up for a good long time, maybe never.

There are only a few proven ways to make greenish electric energy: wind, hydropower, solar, nuclear fission and you can argue that some of these aren't very green. The others, in development: fusion power, green hydrogen, etc are very long shots IMO.

Just today, the National Ignition Facility at Lawrence Livermore Labs announced finally producing net energy with a fusion system after trying for decades. It is a long, long way to go for commercial production of fusion electricity.

Green hydrogen is mostly a joke IMO. As I understand it, green hydrogen is based on the well known process of reforming or partially oxidizing methane or other fossil hydrocarbons to produce hydrogen with the difference of capturing the CO2 produced and sequestering it underground. That process is well developed but is very, very expensive. Some 15 years ago I had a very minor supporting role in BP's developing such a project in California to partially oxidize residual crude oil. They abandoned it after looking at the first cost estimate, which was probably grossly low anyway.

I don't see a way out of this supply/demand conundrum.

David

[Chateau_Nomad]

I don't foresee a viable "green" energy completely replacing fossil fuels in at least a generation. One fallacy is looking at it as a complete replacement. A more sensible approach is SUPPLEMENT. In the meantime, I'm going to chase cheaper fuel wherever I can. That started with purchasing a Chevy Bolt last summer. I cut fuel costs nearly 90%. Is it "green"? It's no greener than the source of electricity coming into our house. But it's a HELL of a lot cheaper than gasoline... and the price doesn't fluctuate every week. That give us more cash to spend on gasoline for the motorhome.

[16ACE27]

[lwmcguir]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Read that the other day, quite interesting

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by Dan-sr@perra-us.net

Has anyone considered or is now using an EV as a TOAD? I am not planning to get an EV anytime soon, so this is just a theoretical question. Presumably IT should be possible to charge the EV from the MH generator and Most campgrounds have 50amp service. I assume that it is too much to expect that the EV power cord would plug into the standard 50amp socket that we use to connect our motorhomes. Here are the questions to consider:

1. Would you be able to charge an EV while on the road using the MH generator? What is the minimum sized generator for a four-hour full charge for example?

2. Could a campground 50amp service be used for an EV rapid charge? If not then how quickly can an EV be brought up to full charge assuming 70% depleted.

3. What additional equipment would be required beyond the appropriate power cord? Would there need have some sort of portable charger for example?

This is just an academic question. We all know that if everyone got an EV tomorrow the electric grid would be unable to handle the load. We all know about the problems of disposing or recycling spent batteries. We all know about the danger of EV battery fires. And we all know that all the minerals for making EV batteries comes for China. Let's not get up on our soap boxes about all the shortcomings of EVs and stick to the technical aspects.

I don't remember exactly, but I think it was Car & Driver parked in a campground but said it would take longer to charge. I think the article was talking about putting in changing stations in campgrounds