Towing

[carlgorski]

Originally Posted by Harley97

Thats what I was thinking. I have a harbor freight tow bar and have zero issues with it. I used a harbor freight WDH on my last trailer and never had any issues either.


QUOTE=Bob Denman;243623]If you're looking to save money by foregoing a braking system for your Toad: why not just buy cheaper toilet paper and peanut butter?
Think about how little you'll save; in comparison to what a serious accident could cost you...

Your reply is the typical reasoning I see. That's why I asked if you have any experience or examples of accidents caused by cheaper tow bars. Why spend the extra money if there is no benefit? I understand there are anti harbor freight people and only blue ox people. That is fine but show me evidence that it's worth spending the extra money vice and choice and opinion.






Are there any states that require a brake on a TOAD and not just on a trailer?[/QUOTE]

Why go cheap and make things difficult and maybe stop an accident. Ask yourself if it made no difference then why would there be $1000 tow bars and $75 ones.

[MaceMan]

It most definitely is a trailer when under tow and Cali definitely requires almost all trailers, boats, travel trailers and even utility trailers to have brakes! Safety first always. Always buy the best Safety equipment you can afford, ALWAYS.

[The_Breeze]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

I'm sorry: I should have specified that I I was speaking only about brakes and braking systems.
Most of the States (At least the ones with lawmakers that can actually write an effective law ...); treat a Toad exactly as they treat a trailer.
If it's hooked-up to you, and your pulling it: there's no difference.

To be fair: I am NOT a Lawyer.
But I do sell insurance. I've seen the accident reports... You don't want to get pushed into a situation that is going to hurt you or your Family.

I point this question at you from the insurance perspective. Once they get done suing the living daylights out of the insurance company, can't they take him to civil court and sue him again? If the judge decides punitive damages are in order for intentional negligence, can't they go after his personal property and even possibly garnish any form of income?

Any lawyers out there?

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by carlgorski

Your reply is the typical reasoning I see. That's why I asked if you have any experience or examples of accidents caused by cheaper tow bars. Why spend the extra money if there is no benefit? I understand there are anti harbor freight people and only blue ox people. That is fine but show me evidence that it's worth spending the extra money vice and choice and opinion.













Are there any states that require a brake on a TOAD and not just on a trailer?

Why go cheap and make things difficult and maybe stop an accident. Ask yourself if it made no difference then why would there be $1000 tow bars and $75 ones.[/QUOTE]



You’re looking for someone to show you that a simple tow bar and/or lack of toad brakes CAUSED an accident and I don’t think you’ll find it. But there is no question that stopping distances will be longer without the added brakes and that can be a major factor in an accident situation. You are either arguing for the sake of arguing or you believe that just because you’ve not experienced a problem in the past you never will. On the tow bar issue, of course there is nothing wrong with a cheap, rigid bar. Folks used them for years, me included. But they have since invented products that are easier and more satisfying to use. Many of us choose them for that reason. You could use an old bag style cell phone too but I’ll bet you don’t!

[Fordste]

I purchased the entry level Blue Ox non binding tow bar. I bought the one that fits into the 2” receiver which I used locking pins so I never remove it. I am not sure how much more difficult it would be to hook up to the Jeep tow plate without it. Everyone and my local laws in TN require the TOAD have brakes if it is 1500 lbs or heavier. This weight is what I have seen on charts showing all the states requirements.
I have a 34 ft class A. I pulled the Jeep for over a year without the brakes and let me tell you it makes a huge difference. Without it I have to stand on the brakes pedal to stop which is bad in heavy traffic. This happens often when someone cuts close in front of you then jams on their brakes. Or when you catch a light at 55. With the brake my RV stops as if there was nothing being towed.
I did a bunch of research and bought an RVI system. It reacts to braking in .5 sec verses 3 seconds on other systems and it is proportional and not a brake full on or no brake setup.

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by carlgorski

Your reply is the typical reasoning I see. That's why I asked if you have any experience or examples of accidents caused by cheaper tow bars. Why spend the extra money if there is no benefit? I understand there are anti harbor freight people and only blue ox people. That is fine but show me evidence that it's worth spending the extra money vice and choice and opinion.






Are there any states that require a brake on a TOAD and not just on a trailer?

Why go cheap and make things difficult and maybe stop an accident. Ask yourself if it made no difference then why would there be $1000 tow bars and $75 ones.[/QUOTE]

Lots of reasons. Maybe one cant afford a $1000 bar, maybe as in my case, I dont want to spend that money for convenience. There is no evidence that a more expensive bar will prevent and accident. All they provide is ease of use.

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by MaceMan

It most definitely is a trailer when under tow and Cali definitely requires almost all trailers, boats, travel trailers and even utility trailers to have brakes! Safety first always. Always buy the best Safety equipment you can afford, ALWAYS.

You should read the law defining trailers that I posted earlier. Legally TOADs are not trailers and are not required brakes in CA.

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by The_Breeze

I point this question at you from the insurance perspective. Once they get done suing the living daylights out of the insurance company, can't they take him to civil court and sue him again? If the judge decides punitive damages are in order for intentional negligence, can't they go after his personal property and even possibly garnish any form of income?

Any lawyers out there?

If you have adequate insurance and are following the law why would it be an issue?

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

Why go cheap and make things difficult and maybe stop an accident. Ask yourself if it made no difference then why would there be $1000 tow bars and $75 ones.

You’re looking for someone to show you that a simple tow bar and/or lack of toad brakes CAUSED an accident and I don’t think you’ll find it. But there is no question that stopping distances will be longer without the added brakes and that can be a major factor in an accident situation. You are either arguing for the sake of arguing or you believe that just because you’ve not experienced a problem in the past you never will. On the tow bar issue, of course there is nothing wrong with a cheap, rigid bar. Folks used them for years, me included. But they have since invented products that are easier and more satisfying to use. Many of us choose them for that reason. You could use an old bag style cell phone too but I’ll bet you don’t![/QUOTE]

I completely agree with you on all this. I bring this all up because every RV advice forum or social media page has this question many times. The majority of answers make people believe they have to spend tons of money on tow bars and brakes to be legal and safe, which isnt true.

Extra brakes are always safer for sure, but not necessarily required by law or dangerous to not have. Drive slower, leave distance and watch out for all the other idiots.

Someday I'm sure I'll upgrade to an easier tow bar. For bow my cheap one works great and I'm still young enough to not be too worn out hooking it up.

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by Fordste

I purchased the entry level Blue Ox non binding tow bar. I bought the one that fits into the 2” receiver which I used locking pins so I never remove it. I am not sure how much more difficult it would be to hook up to the Jeep tow plate without it. Everyone and my local laws in TN require the TOAD have brakes if it is 1500 lbs or heavier. This weight is what I have seen on charts showing all the states requirements.
I have a 34 ft class A. I pulled the Jeep for over a year without the brakes and let me tell you it makes a huge difference. Without it I have to stand on the brakes pedal to stop which is bad in heavy traffic. This happens often when someone cuts close in front of you then jams on their brakes. Or when you catch a light at 55. With the brake my RV stops as if there was nothing being towed.
I did a bunch of research and bought an RVI system. It reacts to braking in .5 sec verses 3 seconds on other systems and it is proportional and not a brake full on or no brake setup.

This is one of the things I'm trying to highlight here. Websites all say TOADs are required auxiliary brakes. But they don't matter, the actual law does. You are correct that TN requires brakes on all trailers over 1500lbs. But, read the definition of a trailer and you will see a TOAD does not meet that definition.
(70) “Trailer” means every vehicle with or without motive power, other than a pole trailer, designed for carrying persons or property and for being drawn by a motor vehicle and so constructed that no part of its weight rests upon the towing vehicle;

A TOAD is not designed to be drawn by a motor vehicle, hence not a trailer and does not require trailer brakes.

I agree completely that brakes are safer and will decrease stopping distance, but they are not required by law.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Harley97

This is one of the things I'm trying to highlight here. Websites all say TOADs are required auxiliary brakes. But they don't matter, the actual law does. You are correct that TN requires brakes on all trailers over 1500lbs. But, read the definition of a trailer and you will see a TOAD does not meet that definition.
(70) “Trailer” means every vehicle with or without motive power, other than a pole trailer, designed for carrying persons or property and for being drawn by a motor vehicle and so constructed that no part of its weight rests upon the towing vehicle;

A TOAD is not designed to be drawn by a motor vehicle, hence not a trailer and does not require trailer brakes.

I agree completely that brakes are safer and will decrease stopping distance, but they are not required by law.

So you don't think a baseplate bolted to and towbar attached is not a design to have the toad drawn by a motor vehicle? How do you think that will hold up in a court of law? Think about it.

A TOAD is exactly designed to be drawn behind a motor vehicle. From the manufacturers' engineering to allow it to be towed to the baseplates design engineer to the towbar's design engineer, to the add-on brake actuating system. If you didn't have these items all designed to tow the car then it would not be towable 4 down.

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

So you don't think a baseplate bolted to and towbar attached is not a design to have the toad drawn by a motor vehicle? How do you think that will hold up in a court of law? Think about it.

A TOAD is exactly designed to be drawn behind a motor vehicle. From the manufacturers' engineering to allow it to be towed to the baseplates design engineer to the towbar's design engineer, to the add-on brake actuating system. If you didn't have these items all designed to tow the car then it would not be towable 4 down.

No not at all. The manufacturer of any TOAD did not manufacture it with the intent for it to be towed. They are manufactured to be motor vehicles and meet that definition. We the modify the motor vehicle to be able to be TOAD.

Read the definitions. They are pretty clear.

Show me any case anywhere in the US that someone was liable for not having trailer brakes on a TOAD.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Harley97

No not at all. The manufacturer of any TOAD did not manufacture it with the intent for it to be towed. They are manufactured to be motor vehicles and meet that definition. We the modify the motor vehicle to be able to be TOAD.

Read the definitions. They are pretty clear.

Show me any case anywhere in the US that someone was liable for not having trailer brakes on a TOAD.

So you don't think that car engineers designed automatic transmissions with output driven fluid pumps and sufficient lubrication and cooling from those pumps to allow the car to be towed with the drive wheels on the ground? They didn't design and engineer procedures to document in owners manuals that must be followed for the vehicle to be towed with the drive wheels on the ground?

I agree with you that we don't need to buy $1000 tow bars when $75 tow bars work just as well.
I agree with you that not all toads/trailers are heavy enough to need to use braking systems.

I don't agree with you that toads and trailers are different in the sideways interpretation of some States' statutes as to what a trailer is. Because the way they BOTH affect the ability of the towing vehicle to come to a stop is exactly the same if the TOAD and the TRAILER weigh the same.

It doesn't take the documentation of a "case anywhere in the US that someone was liable for not having trailer brakes on a TOAD" for me to understand the laws of physics and common sense.. For stopping ability a toad is a trailer. You can disagree, but don't try to spread that misinformation to others.

[Capt.Tom]

Originally Posted by taylorbob1

My research says that the tow vehicle or trailer must weigh more that 3,000# in CA to require a braking system.
I currently tow a 2,200# Chevy Spark w/out a braking system.

As I’ve noted in other Forum posts on this subject...
You can purchase in CA a tandem axel 8’ x 12’ trailer without brakes that lists a max towing weight of 2,999#
Or from the same trailer company
You can purchase same exact trailer with electric brakes which lists a max towing weight of 8,000#

If you have other documentation, please post it for us Californians.

Even if breaks are required in and of themselves a breakaway system is in many states. I thought I saw him so in effect you need brakes to have a breakaway system.
https://www.brakebuddy.com/phone/tow...rth%20Carolina

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

So you don't think that car engineers designed automatic transmissions with output driven fluid pumps and sufficient lubrication and cooling from those pumps to allow the car to be towed with the drive wheels on the ground? They didn't design and engineer procedures to document in owners manuals that must be followed for the vehicle to be towed with the drive wheels on the ground?

I agree with you that we don't need to buy $1000 tow bars when $75 tow bars work just as well.
I agree with you that not all toads/trailers are heavy enough to need to use braking systems.

I don't agree with you that toads and trailers are different in the sideways interpretation of some States' statutes as to what a trailer is. Because the way they BOTH affect the ability of the towing vehicle to come to a stop is exactly the same if the TOAD and the TRAILER weigh the same.

It doesn't take the documentation of a "case anywhere in the US that someone was liable for not having trailer brakes on a TOAD" for me to understand the laws of physics and common sense.. For stopping ability a toad is a trailer. You can disagree, but don't try to spread that misinformation to others.

That's actually exactly what I'm and trying to point out is the spread of misinformation.

Common sense I agree with. More brakes are better, I've said this many times.

Vehicle manufacturers did not design vehicles to be towed. The definition of a trailer in most states is that they were designed to be towed. I'm not sure why they did the transmission design you mentioned without some research but In pretty sure it wasnt for them to be towed. Either way. The government doesn't care about that. The law defines a trailer as something designed for the purpose of being towed. A vehicle doesn't meet that definition. So far no one has shown any state law or lawsuit that proves otherwise.

I think you may be mistaking my intent here. All I'm saying is there is no legal requirement for brakes. I'm not disagreeing that brakes are good and will aid in stopping. But to tell people they willed be liable, sued, cited, arrested etc is wrong. There is no proof or evidence of any of this.

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by Capt.Tom

Even if breaks are required in and of themselves a breakaway system is in many states. I thought I saw him so in effect you need brakes to have a breakaway system.
https://www.brakebuddy.com/phone/tow...rth%20Carolina

Relying on a website selling braking systems is not the best idea or most factual information. Read the laws regarding trailers and you will see that TOADS are not trailers.

[Capt.Tom]

Originally Posted by Harley97

Relying on a website selling braking systems is not the best idea or most factual information. Read the laws regarding trailers and you will see that TOADS are not trailers.

Good luck with that in a court of law, but besides that many vehicles like my Ford F-150 have been designed to be towed on all fours. It's in the owner's manual how to prepare it for that pretty much most of the Chevys too.
Motorhome magazine seems to think brakes are required.
"The Laws of Towing
In most states, anything towed behind another motor vehicle must have brakes. Some states have varying weight restrictions which dictate that vehicles and trailers over a certain weight must have brakes, or the combination must stop within a specified distance. Considering that RVers travel often from state to state, it basically becomes a legal requirement to have dinghy brakes."
https://www.motorhome.com/top-storie...inghy-braking/

[Harley97]

Originally Posted by Capt.Tom

Good luck with that in a court of law, but besides that many vehicles like my Ford F-150 have been designed to be towed on all fours. It's in the owner's manual how to prepare it for that pretty much most of the Chevys too.
Motorhome magazine seems to think brakes are required.
"The Laws of Towing
In most states, anything towed behind another motor vehicle must have brakes. Some states have varying weight restrictions which dictate that vehicles and trailers over a certain weight must have brakes, or the combination must stop within a specified distance. Considering that RVers travel often from state to state, it basically becomes a legal requirement to have dinghy brakes."
https://www.motorhome.com/top-storie...inghy-braking/

As I have said multiple times throughout this thread. 1. Show me a law, not a magazine or website opinion. 2. Show me any single lawsuit, citation, fine etc for someone not having auxiliary brakes on a TOAD.

We all have opinions but what matters is what the law says and what courts say. I have never seen anything supporting auxiliary brakes on a TOAD being required by law. I will gladly recant all my posts if someone can prove this to me.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Harley97

As I have said multiple times throughout this thread. 1. Show me a law, not a magazine or website opinion. 2. Show me any single lawsuit, citation, fine etc for someone not having auxiliary brakes on a TOAD.

We all have opinions but what matters is what the law says and what courts say. I have never seen anything supporting auxiliary brakes on a TOAD being required by law. I will gladly recant all my posts if someone can prove this to me.

Here is the legislation (law) for CA:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...r=3.&article=2.

Section 26458

(a) The braking system on every motor vehicle used to tow another vehicle shall be so arranged that one control on the towing vehicle shall, when applied, operate all the service brakes on the power unit and combination of vehicles when either or both of the following conditions exist:
(1) The towing vehicle is required to be equipped with power brakes.
(2) The towed vehicle is required to be equipped with brakes and is equipped with power brakes.
(b) Subdivision (a) shall not be construed to prohibit motor vehicles from being equipped with an additional control to be used to operate the brakes on the trailer or trailers.
(c) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following combinations of vehicles, if the combination of vehicles meets the stopping distance requirements of Section 26454:
(1) Vehicles engaged in driveaway-towaway operations.
(2) Disabled vehicles, while being towed.
(3) Towed motor vehicles.
(4) Trailers equipped with inertially controlled brakes which are designed to be applied automatically upon breakaway from the towing vehicle and which are capable of stopping and holding the trailer stationary for not less than 15 minutes.
(Amended by Stats. 1991, Ch. 121, Sec. 1.)



I believe you are correct..... ONLY if you can demonstrate / prove the following per sub-section C above:

From Section 26454:

Single-unit property-carrying vehicles having a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds, except truck tractors; combinations of a 2-axle towing vehicle and trailer having a GVWR of 3,000 pounds or less; all combinations of 2 or fewer vehicles in driveaway or towaway operation are required to demonstrate:

1) Max Stopping Distance at 20MPH: 35 Feet

2) Braking force as a percentage of gross vehicle or combination weight: 43.5

3) Deceleration in feet per second at 20MPH: 14

4) Maximum Stopping Distance of Emergency Brake at 20MPH: 85 Feet


If your MH and toad combination can meet the above requirements, you don't need auxiliary braking in the toad. In an accident situation, you may be required to prove it meets all of the above as well as if you are stopped because they have probable cause that it would not meet these stopping requirements.

If the braking system of the MH can't meet these requirements on its own pulling a toad, you would have no choice but to have a supplemental braking system on the toad in order to meet the stopping requirements.

Many other states have similar laws but most also spell out that they require an emergency breakaway system on anything towed. That means the towed vehicle must have a supplemental braking system.

Here is PA's law right from the PA Motor Vehicle Code for example:

Breakaway systems--Every combination operated on a highway, the towed vehicle of which is equipped with brakes or which has a gross weight in excess of 3,000 pounds, shall be so equipped that, upon breakaway of the towed vehicle, the towed vehicle shall be stopped and held automatically, and the towing vehicle shall be capable of being stopped and held by use of its own service braking system.

[Paul.M]

If anyone Needs a Blue Ox Brake System I Have a New Patriot 3 Open Box Brand New For $1,000 Retails for $1,500 Email me at Exide99plm2k@yahoo.com