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Old 02-20-2023, 05:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by lwmcguire View Post
100% agree on your comments

Tires on lighter rigs are almost always the weakest link and the one most often ignored
X3 on what Judge said on the tires. Just lowering the fuel in the navigatior to a 1/3 tank will shave a 100lbs. I am not sure on the Navigator’s do they have a removable row of seats that you won’t need? Are there extra tools and jacks in the navigator that you won’t need because they are already in the coach. I think you could probably get down pretty easily to just above the max. I don’t think that magic number is as black and white as it seems. Anything bad that was going to happen 2-300lbs over was going to happen at 2-300lbs under. You start getting over the 500lbs that is probably a different story.

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Old 02-20-2023, 07:18 PM   #22
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I think you can move forward with your project at 420lbs over if you feel comfortable with your coach and how you will be using it... and if you are adressing any weaknesses.... like the hitch.
Who am I to argue with the Judge. I will continue my quest and I lay myself on the mercy of my fate and destiny. Thanks for all of the inputs, all of the perspectives are amazing and well appreciated.

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Old 02-20-2023, 07:40 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by lwmcguire View Post
100% agree on your comments

Tires on lighter rigs are almost always the weakest link and the one most often ignored
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Originally Posted by Elite Washington View Post
X3 on what Judge said on the tires. Just lowering the fuel in the navigatior to a 1/3 tank will shave a 100lbs. I am not sure on the Navigator’s do they have a removable row of seats that you won’t need? Are there extra tools and jacks in the navigator that you won’t need because they are already in the coach. I think you could probably get down pretty easily to just above the max. I don’t think that magic number is as black and white as it seems. Anything bad that was going to happen 2-300lbs over was going to happen at 2-300lbs under. You start getting over the 500lbs that is probably a different story.
I have Goodyear G670s tires on all 6 wheels. Very good tread wear approaching 5 years old. I have brand new tire as spare under bed. It weighs about 80 lbs, I could take it out if I had too.

We will keep the Navigator at 1/4 tanks when we need it as towed. The plan would be if gas is needed while driving as towed we would buy gas in 6 gas increments.

I am thinking to only purchase 50 gallons of gas when on the highway in need of refuel. Our RV tank holds 80 gallons. This may be hassle because I am use to filling gas up in the RV when I hit 1/4 tank.

None of the my Navigator seats are removable, they are all on electronics and motors that allow them to lay down flat and completely out of the way. I could remove the jack and spare tire in the Navigator.

I have remove extra tools from the RV. There is nothing in Navigator, I mean Nothing!!! If you saw you would think it was brand new at dealers lot Well maybe I lied, I do have the wheel locks key and I plan to have the RVi 3 Brake unit.

That 420# is my absolute max. That was a pre weigh with me thinking I was going to be under 23,000. So I got a little shocked / spooked thus this thread. I will be lighter 1st time I try. EA37TS got my attention, I will have more weighs in the future especially before my very 1st trip if I ever get that far with this quest.

Thank you both
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Old 02-20-2023, 07:48 PM   #24
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From a practical standpoint, exceeding specs by small margin may/may not lead to issues stated above. On the other hand driving at max weight may kill acceleration and general ability to merge, pass when needed depending on gearing, may be a big difference.

From the stanpoint of functionality, do you really want to be concerned with watching add on weight before trips?

We tow a lot, the unit is rated 22,000 GCVW. Normal weekend trip is 18,000. The highest has been 18,750. Using an open race car trailer eliminates the 2500 lb parasitic weight of an enclosed trailer. It also means dragging trailer anywhere on SE carries little mpg penalty.

Is one those can you do it or do you really want to do it questions?
I think the answer now is YES & YES. I can do it (not illegal) and I really want to.

You may raise a good point on safety, my wife says I drive safer when we pull U haul trailers with the RV. I do drive slower that is for sure. I likely will be even more cautious with my Navigator back there. For where I might be going to even want to take the Navigator; I will not be a hurry.
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Old 02-21-2023, 04:58 PM   #25
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Using my Cat Scale reweigh option; my wife and I returned to get a new weigh on steer axle, drive axle and the trailer axle. (note: the towed was not hitched or connected via a tow bar) Not sure what impact that has on weight measurement good or bad?)

Upfront condition: Please get past the obvious that a smaller tow vehicle is easier, but focus on my desire to tow my already owned Lincoln Navigator that I recently learned has a specific Flat Tow mode. I did all of the math upfront to see if I could do but I have run into below issue.

My Lincoln specs say curb weight for the Navigator is 5800 lbs. Today according to the Cat Scale reading; I get 6,240 lbs That us 440 lbs more than I anticipated. The only thing added to the Navigator....
1. Full tank of gas (about 24 gallons or 144 lbs)
2. 45 lbs of weight to simulate Roadmaster Base Plate that is on order but not installed
3. 10 lbs of weight to simulate the RVi Brake 3 which is not ordered

The RV is sitting at 17,180 lbs ( it is fully loaded as we need, but we did remove some things we never use). Most relevant cargo is...
1. Full tank of gas
2. 1/3 tank of water
3. My wife and I ( we are both normal size; so going on a diet won't help
4. Gray and Black are empty
5. Spare tire under the bed could be removed (80lbs)
6. Ice maker could be removed (26 lbs)

My GCVW is 23,420 and my GCWR = 23,000

Should I give up this project? I am sure I could drain water, cut back on gas and remove spare to get under 23,000 lbs but is it necessary, or is it even worth it? Also, for kicks, hHow serious is the 420 lbs given supplemental braking?

I have a new hitch on order that I can easily return, but may be stuck with a $485 base plate I purchased from e trailer if I can't go forward?

Note and to be clear:
Getting another Tow Vehicle is not an option. I will either configure this Lincoln Navigator to be towed on my existing RV, or just leave everything as is.

Just a thought, did you subtract the weight of the driver and passenger, if you had a passenger when you weighed the Navigator?

Depending on exactly how much the Driver / Passenger weigh that could knock as much as 200# for just a driver and another 150# for the passenger.
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Old 02-21-2023, 06:33 PM   #26
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Just a thought, did you subtract the weight of the driver and passenger, if you had a passenger when you weighed the Navigator?

Depending on exactly how much the Driver / Passenger weigh that could knock as much as 200# for just a driver and another 150# for the passenger.
No. There was no one in Navigator when it was weighed. My wife and I were in the RV when weight was taken
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Old 02-21-2023, 09:06 PM   #27
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I think the answer now is YES & YES. I can do it (not illegal) and I really want to.
Excellent! You will be going into this with your eyes wide open. Enjoy and safe travels.

On a funny note, just got RV and had it setup for trip to team finals in SC. Finals cancelled Monday night due to weather. Disconnected trailer and went to Disney campground with 700 lbs of spare parts and tools for racecar for a week. When got home, had same net MPG as no parts/tools. Now my spare parts and tools have been to Disney more than some people.
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Old 02-21-2023, 09:22 PM   #28
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I would think the hitch itself may not handle that much weight. Even though specs say it will tow 8000 lbs., I personally wouldn’t trust it. You’ve got 5000 lbs over your gvwr. Do you trust Thor to have reinforced the frame, which was meant to withstand pulling more than 5000 lbs.? Mine will allegedly tow 8000 also. I have 6000 over the gvwr. The Kia Sorrento and dolly weigh in at 4000. When I compared the hitch install on the motorhome to my F150 truck, it ain’t the same. No sir, I won’t trust Thor to have properly done it.1
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Old 02-21-2023, 10:13 PM   #29
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I would think the hitch itself may not handle that much weight. Even though specs say it will tow 8000 lbs., I personally wouldn’t trust it. You’ve got 5000 lbs over your gvwr. Do you trust Thor to have reinforced the frame, which was meant to withstand pulling more than 5000 lbs.? Mine will allegedly tow 8000 also. I have 6000 over the gvwr. The Kia Sorrento and dolly weigh in at 4000. When I compared the hitch install on the motorhome to my F150 truck, it ain’t the same. No sir, I won’t trust Thor to have properly done it.1
1 - He doesn't have a Thor product.
2 - He started this entire conversation with questions about upgrading his current hitch.
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Old 02-21-2023, 11:35 PM   #30
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1 - He doesn't have a Thor product.
2 - He started this entire conversation with questions about upgrading his current hitch.
Sorry Ace. You’ve aced me again.
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Old 02-22-2023, 01:39 AM   #31
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Excellent! You will be going into this with your eyes wide open. Enjoy and safe travels.

On a funny note, just got RV and had it setup for trip to team finals in SC. Finals cancelled Monday night due to weather. Disconnected trailer and went to Disney campground with 700 lbs of spare parts and tools for racecar for a week. When got home, had same net MPG as no parts/tools. Now my spare parts and tools have been to Disney more than some people.
Yes, I feel educated, I have heard perspectives from all sides. With the knowledge I have with the pre-weighs, I believe my actual average weight will be between 22,900 & 23,200 lbs. I can go for the jugular by taking out both spare tires, but would you rather be 22,950 with no spare tires 23,200?

Worse case if we were stopped and questioned, I could unhook and my wife could drive the Navigator until we got to the next state.

My tools don't get to travel with us anymore if we have a towed. And FWIW, if my tools were get out of the toolbox more and fix some things around the RV / House; I may take them to Disneyland
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Old 02-22-2023, 01:57 AM   #32
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Yes, I feel educated, I have heard perspectives from all sides. With the knowledge I have with the pre-weighs, I believe my actual average weight will be between 22,900 & 23,200 lbs. I can go for the jugular by taking out both spare tires, but would you rather be 22,950 with no spare tires 23,200?

Worse case if we were stopped and questioned, I could unhook and my wife could drive the Navigator until we got to the next state.

My tools don't get to travel with us anymore if we have a towed. And FWIW, if my tools were get out of the toolbox more and fix some things around the RV / House; I may take them to Disneyland
Toss the spares. You can always carry sealant and compressor. Our other car does not have a spare. Reading you post sure makes me happy we went with our Aria and not the Palazzo. We did the math and had no interest in having to worry about weight. Between grandkids, dogs, maybe an adult daughter and on the road for 2-3 weeks over the mountains in the Northwest.
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Old 02-22-2023, 02:20 AM   #33
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Toss the spares. You can always carry sealant and compressor. Our other car does not have a spare. Reading you post sure makes me happy we went with our Aria and not the Palazzo. We did the math and had no interest in having to worry about weight. Between grandkids, dogs, maybe an adult daughter and on the road for 2-3 weeks over the mountains in the Northwest.
We have roadside for both and the Navigator has a special Black Label roadside with Lincoln. I may follow your advice at least initially. I feel pretty sure I will be under 23,000 for 1st trip if I make it that far.

My bewilderment is not so much my initial miscalculation because I thought we would be under 23,000 as we travel today, but the fact that apparently 420 pounds could make a difference that warrant the special activity to dump stuff?

Anyhoo, this is my projected weigh below. I will get a new weigh at the appropriate time with only what I project I need to be under 23,000. When I start driving, I will rely on common sense to learn if I sense an issue with 420 lbs. I personally don't see the issue. I will have supplemental brake system in Navigator and that Navigator is designed for payload of 7,625 lbs!! that is 1,400 lbs of cushion in my book. The Navigator was 6,240 at time of weigh, it will be less next time as I will not return it to the scale with a full tank of gas, likely 1/4 tanks

Further, from what I read, all of these specs have a 20% tolerance for safety.
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Old 02-23-2023, 12:03 AM   #34
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I would think the hitch itself may not handle that much weight. Even though specs say it will tow 8000 lbs., I personally wouldn’t trust it. You’ve got 5000 lbs over your gvwr. Do you trust Thor to have reinforced the frame, which was meant to withstand pulling more than 5000 lbs.? Mine will allegedly tow 8000 also. I have 6000 over the gvwr. The Kia Sorrento and dolly weigh in at 4000. When I compared the hitch install on the motorhome to my F150 truck, it ain’t the same. No sir, I won’t trust Thor to have properly done it.1
FYI, I received the new Hitch today. I believe I can see right away why it is going to be stronger and rated for 10,000lbs although I only need 6240lbs.

1. It does not mount on the extension of the frame from Ford's F-53 Chassis where the existing frame mounts today. It will actually go on the Ford F-53 OEM frame
2. To remove the OEM hitch; looks like some welding of OEM's hitch side to extension frame will have to removed in addition to the removal of the 6 bolts.
3. It will require 6 new holes drilled into the Ford F-53 frame (so confirmation I cannot do myself)
4. While the new Curt hitch is definitely welded solid and coated very good for rust, I may gain some weight relief when/if the OEM hitch is removed, I am guessing 30 - 40 lbs due to the side fenders on the OEM hitch.
5. It also looks as if the new hitch receiver will be about 2 - 3 inches lower than OEM, and that is good news just from my experience towing trailers and dollies with the RV. It may also reduce the need of me having to buy a receiver adaptor to get the two bar closer in line with the Navigator.

Problem I have now is finding someone who can do. The Installers they give you on the websites like Curt or e-trailer are useless. You call them and have to take 10 minutes before they even know what a baseplate or Curt hitch is. One guy asked "why would I want to take my hitch off if I already have one."
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Old 02-23-2023, 02:05 AM   #35
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DK I am not going to come out and tell you it's ok to run overloaded, (what would the Duck say?) but my guess is half the RV's going down the road are at least 2-3% overloaded. Most mfgrs build them right out to close to the max GVR. Add mom, dad, the kids, their gear and the dog that doesn't leave much wiggle room.
Last time I weighed with the toad were under GCWR and over on the GVR by just over 200lbs. By moving a few things into the toad and dropping to 1/2 tank of water we moved back into specs.

Here's a thought. How many of the SUV's with a family of 5, loaded roof rack and 5 bikes hanging off the hitch rack going by you at 80 mph are exceeding the vehicles GVR? Most of those folks are oblivious to GVR and tire load ranges. All they're worried about is getting to the cabin on time for check in.
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Old 02-23-2023, 03:18 AM   #36
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DK I'll add. I've read this thread but don't recall if this was addressed, if so I apologize for being redundant. When a weight rating such as GVWR for example is computed, the manufacturer figures in the weakest link of the puzzle and uses that as the maximum weight for the rating. Could be springs, brakes, hitch, any part and you don't know what that limitation is. Personally I don't think that amount of weight is going to result in disaster except your wallet. Your MPG will plummet from what you are used to seeing with no toad.

My past toads recently have been a 5K Jeep, 5.7K Ram 1500 and now I'm towing a Ram 2500 diesel with a Harley and Rampage lift in the bed. I haven't weighed it yet, tomorrow I'll be at scales, but I suspect I'm north to 8K. So far I've lost 1.5-2MPG but I've also fighting some quartering head winds of around 20+.
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Old 02-23-2023, 03:43 AM   #37
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DK I am not going to come out and tell you it's ok to run overloaded, (what would the Duck say?) but my guess is half the RV's going down the road are at least 2-3% overloaded. Most mfgrs build them right out to close to the max GVR. Add mom, dad, the kids, their gear and the dog that doesn't leave much wiggle room.
Last time I weighed with the toad were under GCWR and over on the GVR by just over 200lbs. By moving a few things into the toad and dropping to 1/2 tank of water we moved back into specs.

Here's a thought. How many of the SUV's with a family of 5, loaded roof rack and 5 bikes hanging off the hitch rack going by you at 80 mph are exceeding the vehicles GVR? Most of those folks are oblivious to GVR and tire load ranges. All they're worried about is getting to the cabin on time for check in.
The damn Duck would always seem to say the opposite of what one might think and then back it up with some hard core lessons.

He probably would have told me to get a sander and grind down the hitch ratings engraved on hitch or sticker, provide some link to some outfit that has all of the standard hitch ratings, pick the rating I need, pay $20 and move on.
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Old 02-23-2023, 03:47 AM   #38
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The damn Duck would always seem to say the opposite of what one might think and then back it up with some hard core lessons.

He probably would have told me to get a sander and grind down the hitch ratings engraved on hitch or sticker, provide some link to some outfit that has all of the standard hitch ratings, pick the rating I need, pay $20 and move on.
If you did that you need to fill in the sanding marks with the highest rating metal set/JB Weld.
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Old 02-23-2023, 04:00 AM   #39
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DK I'll add. I've read this thread but don't recall if this was addressed, if so I apologize for being redundant. When a weight rating such as GVWR for example is computed, the manufacturer figures in the weakest link of the puzzle and uses that as the maximum weight for the rating. Could be springs, brakes, hitch, any part and you don't know what that limitation is. Personally I don't think that amount of weight is going to result in disaster except your wallet. Your MPG will plummet from what you are used to seeing with no toad.

My past toads recently have been a 5K Jeep, 5.7K Ram 1500 and now I'm towing a Ram 2500 diesel with a Harley and Rampage lift in the bed. I haven't weighed it yet, tomorrow I'll be at scales, but I suspect I'm north to 8K. So far I've lost 1.5-2MPG but I've also fighting some quartering head winds of around 20+.
To be honest, now that I have seen where & how the existing hitch is mounted on my WBGO for 5,000# rating, I prefer to upgrade that hitch if I can get some one to remove old and mount the new one. My old hitch has started to rust anyway. I don't believe the Curt hitch will ever rust that way except maybe inside the receiver with a lot of use?

Plain and simple, now that I know the actual weight of Navigator loaded with gas, I want a hitch rated for at least 1500#s. When done that is done.

The rest of the story.... with new information being learned daily about 23,420# exceeding the 23,000# GCVW is starting to....

If I do get all of this working, don't expect me to haul that Navigator all across the country, it ain't happening. But something comes up and I want my Navigator, the fact that I know I could take it is what I want.
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Old 02-23-2023, 04:37 AM   #40
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I would think the hitch itself may not handle that much weight. Even though specs say it will tow 8000 lbs., I personally wouldn’t trust it. You’ve got 5000 lbs over your gvwr. Do you trust Thor to have reinforced the frame, which was meant to withstand pulling more than 5000 lbs.? Mine will allegedly tow 8000 also. I have 6000 over the gvwr. The Kia Sorrento and dolly weigh in at 4000. When I compared the hitch install on the motorhome to my F150 truck, it ain’t the same. No sir, I won’t trust Thor to have properly done it.1
Thor MC is NOT certified to modify any part of the Detroit Chassis F-53 stripped chassis. Thor MC chassis modifications are done by MORryde International which is certified by Ford to modify the Detroit Chassis F-53 stripped chassis.

Winnie IS certified to modify the Detroit Chassis F-53 chassis and has the special shop alignment machine; as well as, certified chassis welders. Thus, they can sell a RV which has a Ford chassis warranty.
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Jim & Roy Davis
2016 Hurricane 31S
1961 Rampside in tow
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