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-   -   Lithium Batteries and Factory Charge Controller (https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f10/lithium-batteries-factory-charge-controller-23458.html)

The_Breeze 09-19-2020 10:08 PM

Lithium Batteries and Factory Charge Controller
 
Who would be the correct people to ask about whether the stock charge controller will charge lithium batteries: Thor or WFCO?

I went to Thor Resources and did not find a manual for it or this question would have been moot.

From their website:
"The WF-8900 Series has revolutionized RV power centers with its lighter weight, decorative doors and superior features. The WF-8955 model provides 55 Amps and a clean, constant 13.6 VDC nominal output, for reliable operation of electronics and appliances. Automatic three-stage charging extends the life of your battery with output voltage modes of 13.2 VDC range “float” mode, 13.6 VDC range “absorption” mode, and a 14.4 VDC range “bulk” charge mode. The 8900 Series also maintains peace and quiet, as the cooling fan runs only when needed.

FCC Class B compliance for every power center model means that the units are designed not to cause interference with televisions, radios, or other signals. Electronic current limiting automatically shuts down the power during overload or short-circuit conditions, protecting the life of your power center and electrical system.

The 8900 Series models provide AC and DC distribution with innovative features. They can accommodate a 30 Amp main AC circuit breaker and up to five branch circuits. Eleven-branch DC circuits are available with LED lights for each DC circuit to illuminate and identify open circuits.

Part Numbers: WF-8955PEC (Brown), WF-8955PEC-B (Black)" (re: https://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8955-55-amp/)

DavidEM 09-19-2020 11:46 PM

I don't know if WCO has a lithium specific battery charger/converter but Progressive Dynamics does, their 9100AL series. The standard converter will usually work but it doesn't hold a high enough voltage, 14.4-14.6 volts to charge the last 15%.

David

mrgscooter 09-20-2020 12:04 AM

I checked recently with wfco myself & existing would "work but not to optimal voltage" for lithium. My takeaway was for cost of battery and maximize the use of it, probably need to replace. Of course they make one specifically for lithium batteries.

Beau388 09-20-2020 12:44 AM

Generally the only difference between a flooded charging profile and a liFePO4 battery is the max amperage for bulk charging. A typical installed charger has a 55 amp max output. A 400 amp-h Li bank can easily adsorb 150 amps @ 12 volts. This can reduce your charge time significantly.


Here are the charger requirements from Battle Born:
Charging Voltages/Parameters:
  • Bulk/absorb: 14.2 – 14.6 V
  • Float: 13.6 V or lower
  • No equalization (or set it to 14.4 V)
  • No temperature compensation
  • Absorption time: is 30 minutes per battery (if it’s an option)
You will also need a new LI-BIM (battery isolation manager)

The_Breeze 09-20-2020 01:18 AM

Thank you
 
Thank you Gentlemen. I ordered this inverter/charger/xfr-switch tonight:

https://theinverterstore.com/product...erter-charger/

I'm researching batteries and will look into the Battle Born Beau suggested.

Safe travels and thanks again.

The_Breeze 09-20-2020 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beau388 (Post 255727)
Generally the only difference between a flooded charging profile and a liFePO4 battery is the max amperage for bulk charging. A typical installed charger has a 55 amp max output. A 400 amp-h Li bank can easily adsorb 150 amps @ 12 volts. This can reduce your charge time significantly.


Here are the charger requirements from Battle Born:
Charging Voltages/Parameters:
  • Bulk/absorb: 14.2 – 14.6 V
  • Float: 13.6 V or lower
  • No equalization (or set it to 14.4 V)
  • No temperature compensation
  • Absorption time: is 30 minutes per battery (if it’s an option)
You will also need a new LI-BIM (battery isolation manager)

Thanks. Does the isolation manager have something to do with the chassis battery?

Just ordered 4 of these: https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...cycle-battery/

Beau388 09-20-2020 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Breeze (Post 255733)
Thanks. Does the isolation manager have something to do with the chassis battery?

Just ordered 4 of these: https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...cycle-battery/

Your coach's alternator assumes it is attached to a starting flooded battery. In order to have the parameters to hook it to a Li battery, you need a specific BIM to connect the batteries for charging with the alternator and or the emergency start switch. The charging profiles of the different battery types vary just enough to cause a problem. Second problem is you should never try to charge a Li battery if the temperature is below freezing. A Li-BIM knows that, as does a charger which has a LiFePo4 setting.


A little more useless knowledge - The motor's alternator regulator uses the internal resistance of the starting battery and the wire or cable between the battery and alternator to adjust the voltage and amperage to meet the chassis battery needs. Just adding a big battery bank to the chassis batteries charging circuit can and usually does damage the alternator by overheating and at best can lower the alternators output voltage below 13.2 volts. In order to have the two types of batteries to play nice with the alternator, you need a supervisor (Li-BIM).

Bob Denman 09-20-2020 02:15 PM

:o This IS starting to sound a lot like Rocket Science... :hide:

The_Breeze 09-20-2020 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beau388 (Post 255775)
cut...

In order to have the two types of batteries to play nice with the alternator, you need a supervisor (Li-BIM).

Thanks again!

The_Breeze 09-20-2020 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Denman (Post 255777)
:o This IS starting to sound a lot like Rocket Science... :hide:

Nah, that would be LOX. This is Lithium.:lol:

Bob Denman 09-20-2020 06:57 PM

:D My mistake! :facepalm:
Please keep us in the loop for this very informative project! :thumb:

The_Breeze 09-21-2020 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Denman (Post 255822)
:D My mistake! :facepalm:
Please keep us in the loop for this very informative project! :thumb:

I'll can do that in PM. I'd like to avoid the jealous and the critics.

Bob Denman 09-21-2020 02:46 AM

Don't let the jealous ones bother you: you've done a ton of work on this project! :bow: :thumb:
The critics? They're just letting you know about options... :rolleyes:

The_Breeze 09-21-2020 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Denman (Post 255930)
Don't let the jealous ones bother you: you've done a ton of work on this project! :bow: :thumb:
The critics? They're just letting you know about options... :rolleyes:

Here's part of it: https://www.thorforums.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=14

Answer to someone else's question about a similar project. The rest is specific to my rig, where and how stuff is installed, etc.

The_Breeze 09-21-2020 04:31 PM

WFCO Reply to Inquiry
 
My question:
"Is the 8955PEC suitable for charging Lithium-ion batteries? I would like to upgrade from lead acid/AGM to lithium in gradual steps toward solar"?

Thank you

Their answer:
"The converter you have is not an actual lithium converter but will charge to approx.. 90%. We do have a direct replacement converter that is lithium Part# WF-8950L2-MBA".

paulwadley 09-21-2020 04:38 PM

There are many of us "uninformed" that would like to follow along and learn something new. Please keep the postings going for us to learn.

Thanks
Paul

Beau388 09-21-2020 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Breeze (Post 256022)
My question:
"Is the 8955PEC suitable for charging Lithium-ion batteries? I would like to upgrade from lead acid/AGM to lithium in gradual steps toward solar"?

Thank you

Their answer:
"The converter you have is not an actual lithium converter but will charge to approx.. 90%. We do have a direct replacement converter that is lithium Part# WF-8950L2-MBA".

That statement is subject to interpretation. If the LiFePo4 batteries do require 14.6 volts for a full charge and your inverter with a max voltage of 14.2 volts will not charge the lithium batteries to the maximum during bulk and adsorption phases. The corollary is all lithium batteries will reach maximum charge during the float charge. All this is based on the lithium batteries internal battery management computers software. Just like a 12 volt lead acid battery is composed of six 2.13 volt cells; a lithium battery is composed of four 3.2 volt cells. Because the current limitations of a lithium battery, it has an internal battery management computer. This controls the charge and discharge rate and voltages because the lithium batteries have little internal resistance and can easily catch fire if abused. Each lithium battery maker sets the limits for their battery to protect the individual cells, so their recommendations are for their batteries alone.

Hugh.vines@att.net 09-21-2020 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beau388 (Post 256043)
That statement is subject to interpretation. If the LiFePo4 batteries do require 14.6 volts for a full charge and your inverter with a max voltage of 14.2 volts will not charge the lithium batteries to the maximum during bulk and adsorption phases. The corollary is all lithium batteries will reach maximum charge during the float charge. All this is based on the lithium batteries internal battery management computers software. Just like a 12 volt lead acid battery is composed of six 2.13 volt cells; a lithium battery is composed of four 3.2 volt cells. Because the current limitations of a lithium battery, it has an internal battery management computer. This controls the charge and discharge rate and voltages because the lithium batteries have little internal resistance and can easily catch fire if abused. Each lithium battery maker sets the limits for their battery to protect the individual cells, so their recommendations are for their batteries alone.



So if that battery controller goes bad you could be in trouble right?

Beau388 09-21-2020 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh.vines@att.net (Post 256046)
So if that battery controller goes bad you could be in trouble right?

Yep but on the more expensive batteriy's each battery has a separate controller so you would loose only one battery and the bad controller could be replaced; not the whole battery.

The_Breeze 09-22-2020 01:33 AM

I did it again:facepalm:

-That question was posed to a WFCO tech. That was WFCO's response.

I bought 4-100ah Battle Born batteries and they do have separate controllers and will replace the 4 lead acid I have under my steps.

I'm combining that with an AIMS inverter that has a LIFEPO4 charge profile.

Hope that helps?


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