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Originally Posted by Long & Winding road
Ok, but I wonder if you can ask 5 star how you want your tune "Tweaked"? I read where some members will call up (or email) 5 star to get an updated tune (for free?) to help with shifting etc. Im sure they can tweak some of the perimeters you mentions to make it even better?
If we did call them and they are willing to tweak it .... what would you suggest over all to improve it??
Like the PE... .tell them 50%?
Low speed stoic and lambda # you mentioned?
What else do you think will help?
I will also look into HP tuners as an option. Or is that more for the do it your self tune? And will require hours of research to get the right (and safe) tune?
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Again, excellent questions! Thanks! Are you ready for more to "digest"? lol.
HPTuners is simply a tool. 5 Star's "tool" is SCT. They are both basically interfaces (hardware) and software that lets you read, edit and then re-program ECM/TCM calibrations. They also have logging/charting/graphing capabilities. There are many others, EFILive, Motec, Diablo, etc.
Obviously the "tool" is only as good as the person's hand that holds them. They can be anything from amazing to like putting a loaded gun in a baby's hand.
The one difference is HPTuners doesn't sell the tunes themselves, they are a hardware and software company. They concentrate on making the most powerful tuning software for professional tuners. 5 Star is actually just a shop that USES tuning hardware and software (SCT) to build "tunes" to sell. They don't make hardware or software, they're really just mechanics that learned how to use tuning software. What 5 Star does is extremely basic and somewhat primitive. They make VERY little changes to each table/parameter and leave most everything else stock. I just looked at the comparison logs between a stock Ford tune and a 5 Star tune, they made changes in 22 engine tables and 42 transmission tables. I also compared one of the tunes in my particular Ford V10, I made changes in 59 engine tables and 71 transmission tables. The degrees of changes between each table can be anything from one single value out of hundreds of cells in a single table, or the entire table is modified from stock values.
In defense of 5 Star, they've created an easy way for the majority of owners to make their engines and transmissions work better. They obviously have to build a "tune" that they can sell to hundreds of people and not worry about it changing too much. They're also bound by some amount of emission laws. ALL engine modifications like this are illegal btw. 5 Star has gotten away with it because they change almost nothing that has any effect on emissions other than WOT, which isn't as regulated.
HaRVey, the "dramatic difference" that people feel when they put in a 5 Star tune is simply that, A FEELING. (I'm talking about the engine calibrations, not trans changes.) In any engine calibration there are many things that set the relationship between the pedal and the throttle on the actual engine.
IT'S NOT A 1:1 RELATIONSHIP. You can have your foot to the floor but the actual throttle might only be open half way. Or you could have your foot pushing down the pedal only 1/4 of the way, but have the throttle wide open. That's what the 5 Star tuning does. They change the relationship between your foot and the engine. Ideally you want your pedal position to follow your demand for power. That's the basis of most all modern ECM calibrations, they're "Demand" or "Torque Request" based. You "demand" half of the engine's power by pushing the pedal half way. The ECM determines what to do with the actual throttle (and a dozen other variables) to give you exactly half of the total power the engine can produce.
Did everyone "digest" that? haha. Ok so here's the interesting and VERY important part...
What if you change some of the tables in the engine calibration so that the power delivered at wide open throttle is now delivered as soon as your foot pushes the pedal half way down? (I'm gonna bold that because it's a big deal if anyone wants to truly understand any of this.) What happens is you give the illusion of power, you are NOT increasing the overall power whatsoever. So when the person driving puts the new tune in, the power they felt at 1/4 or 1/2 throttle is now WAY more, because they normally would have had to push the pedal further to get that exact same power.
That above is a big deal. Read it a few times if it doesn't make sense. If you guys want to know more about this, I can make the next "chapter" explaining how the pedal/throttle relationship is in the stock calibration, vs. the 5 Star, vs. what I do. Here's a teaser... in one of those your throttle will go WIDE OPEN as soon as your foot pushes the pedal down 35% of the way. So there is absolutely no difference between that 35% and if you pushed it all the way to the floor. Try it sometime on your own rigs, push the pedal half or 3/4 down and feel the power. Then push it all the way. Most won't feel a difference because a lot of times there is none. The throttle was already wide open.
Here's another huge point... Remember I said Power Enrichment is tied to PEDAL position and not THROTTLE position? Guess what? Your pedal is at 35%, but your throttle is wide open. Are you getting power enrichment? NOPE! Remember stock PE doesn't come on until 90%. 5 Star lowers that to 80%. It's meaningless when the throttle goes wide open at way below those numbers. See how complicated and important these little details are? And that's just one example of how you can really wreck the calibrations (and blow engines) if you don't know what you're doing.
Back to L&W's questions... Yes, it takes not "hours of research" but YEARS of experience, knowledge, training, trial and error and a ton of patience to be able to properly make changes to what the OEM has done. And for those that think the OEM's know best and nobody should be messing with trying to make it better? The OEM's DO know best. That doesn't mean they're free to DO what's best. They are bound by a million different factors when they're building an engine/trans calibration. It's a huge compromise. If people like me or the guys at 5 Star couldn't make what they've done better, the entire aftermarket industry wouldn't exist. In the particular case of these Ford V10's, they can be made HUGELY BETTER than what Ford did. And in the process of simply increasing power, if done correctly they can deliver better fuel mileage, far smoother driveability and actually increased dependability and durability than stock. Fact. Not internet lore. lol.
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