Best Buy on Lithium Batteries Today

[ducksface]

Just be careful and consider the possibility of overheating your chassis alternator with the new Li batteries...

David

Can you post a proof that is any remarkable percentage of this actually happening?
Everyone else that says such has not been able to provide a percentage based proof.

 

[16ACE27]

Can you post a proof that is any remarkable percentage of this actually happening?
Everyone else that says such has not been able to provide a percentage based proof.

Really? Have you not noticed that almost everyone with the Class B UHG has had to replace the alternator? Some, multiple times. And the sole purpose of that alternator is to charge an LFP battery bank.

 

[ducksface]

Yup.
Really.
Since I don't have something infallibly engineered by thor
I'm not sure I'll have that problem.

Could it be the mount or too tight of a belt?
I bet it could be these just as well as it could be a burn out...but we have proof of what a cooked alternator or a too tight belt REALLY does and so far I've not seen proof of bms lithiums eating up alternators.
I'm willing to concede my against the grain thinking with just simple percentages as proof.

Numbers
From
Across the spectrum of rv's
Or it just isn't a thing to me.

I've cancelled the old school thinking on
Charger garbage stories of milking 10 years of life when 9.5 years will do.
The 32° temperature garbage
I'm thinking I'm about to cancel the mixed battery chemistry and alternator stuff.

I think I've been proving that laboratory stuff of forcing a diet of 95% carbon from a charred steak down a rats mouth to prove a concept on cancer may be being touted by the same lab guys hyperbole talking about batteries and not real life battery usage.

Any charge is a step toward killing a battery. From da one through dead. Usage degrades.
I say to degrade at a real life standard and not a lab influenced opinion of potential possibilities 10years from now when a tiny tiny y percentage of us will own the same rv in 10 years nor will have upgraded to the new chemistry after lithium IF we do own an rv long enough to experience the battery being killed or the one less year of alternator life.

 

[DavidEM]

Can you post a proof that is any remarkable percentage of this actually happening?
Everyone else that says such has not been able to provide a percentage based proof.

Well, both theory and a little bit of personal and reported experience backs this up:

The theory is that RV alternators even though they may be rated at high amperage can’t put out that amperage continuously without ultimately failing. Four hundred amp hours of Lithium batteries can draw a couple of hundred amps from a chassis alternator. Is that enough to destroy the alternator if kept at that level for hours? Go to the practical below for some corroberating evidence:

Years ago I cruised full time on a boat with 450 Ah of FLA batteries, a Balmar “high output” 100 amp alternator and an external Balmar regulator with alternator temperature probe.

When I would crank up the engine to go to a new anchorage after hanging out for a few days at anchor and running the batteries down to about 50%, the alternator would put out close to 100A. I would watch it for about 15 minutes while monitoring the alternator case temp with an IR gun. The temp would slowly rise to about 210 F at which time the DC output would suddenly drop to about 50A. The temperature probe was causing the regulator to cut back to keep the alternator from overheating.

Others have indicated on this forum that an alternator should be operated below 225F to keep from ultimately failing.

I concluded that very few if any alternators could operate continuously at their rated amp output.

This theory/practical experience is supported by reports of alternator failure on RVs with an under hood generator (UHG). Under the hood is not a good environment to operate an alternator flat out for long.

David

 

[Beau388]

Automotive alternators are rated at 70 F internal temperature and max continuous RPM (usually 8,000 rpm). As the copper winding of an alternator heat during high output situation, their resistance to electrical flow also increases. At 200 F, the reduction at capacity will be about 25%. The extra potential electricity turned into heat. Alternators are cooled by a fan turning at alternator's speed and are subject to the engine compartment's heat. At moderate engine rpm an alternator is only capable of producing about 60% of its rated capacity. This low rpm and low power capability saves the typical RV alternator from failing.

 

[16ACE27]

Yup.
Really.
Since I don't have something infallibly engineered by thor
I'm not sure I'll have that problem.

Could it be the mount or too tight of a belt?
I bet it could be these just as well as it could be a burn out...but we have proof of what a cooked alternator or a too tight belt REALLY does and so far I've not seen proof of bms lithiums eating up alternators.
I'm willing to concede my against the grain thinking with just simple percentages as proof.

Numbers
From
Across the spectrum of rv's
Or it just isn't a thing to me.

I've cancelled the old school thinking on
Charger garbage stories of milking 10 years of life when 9.5 years will do.
The 32° temperature garbage
I'm thinking I'm about to cancel the mixed battery chemistry and alternator stuff.

I think I've been proving that laboratory stuff of forcing a diet of 95% carbon from a charred steak down a rats mouth to prove a concept on cancer may be being touted by the same lab guys hyperbole talking about batteries and not real life battery usage.

Any charge is a step toward killing a battery. From da one through dead. Usage degrades.
I say to degrade at a real life standard and not a lab influenced opinion of potential possibilities 10years from now when a tiny tiny y percentage of us will own the same rv in 10 years nor will have upgraded to the new chemistry after lithium IF we do own an rv long enough to experience the battery being killed or the one less year of alternator life.

I don't need a government funded study to determine that excessive load on an alternator will shorten its life if not outright kill it. Science helps.

Most LFP BMSs limit charging current to .5C or less. For a single 100 AH battery, that would be 50 amps. Two in parallel would be 100 amps, etc, etc.

As an example, my 2015 V10 alternator supplies between 35 and 75 amps (depending on SOC of chassis battery and what accessories are running like headlights and A/C) without adding any house battery charging. My alternator is a 175 amp unit with a new replacement cost of about $450 - reman about $100 less.

So add those two LFPs to the mix and I have seen 160 amps out of my alternator. That's when I installed my "Trombetta" control power cut-off switch. The alternator may be rated for 175 amps, but that's not a continuous rating. I doubt 95% of that is continuous either - more like 80%.

So even without all the anecdotal stories on this and other Forums, I'm not betting $450 and hours of my time on the chance of killing my alternator. I now have 500 AH of LFPs for a house battery bank. At full charging current that would smoke more than the alternator.

Feel free to place your own bets.

 

[macdaddy1111]

I don't need a government funded study to determine that excessive load on an alternator will shorten its life if not outright kill it. Science helps.

Most LFP BMSs limit charging current to .5C or less. For a single 100 AH battery, that would be 50 amps. Two in parallel would be 100 amps, etc, etc.

As an example, my 2015 V10 alternator supplies between 35 and 75 amps (depending on SOC of chassis battery and what accessories are running like headlights and A/C) without adding any house battery charging. My alternator is a 175 amp unit with a new replacement cost of about $450 - reman about $100 less.

So add those two LFPs to the mix and I have seen 160 amps out of my alternator. That's when I installed my "Trombetta" control power cut-off switch. The alternator may be rated for 175 amps, but that's not a continuous rating. I doubt 95% of that is continuous either - more like 80%.

So even without all the anecdotal stories on this and other Forums, I'm not betting $450 and hours of my time on the chance of killing my alternator. I now have 500 AH of LFPs for a house battery bank. At full charging current that would smoke more than the alternator.

Feel free to place your own bets.

Why I love bim 225 and dc to dc charger. Charger doesn't barely even come on because never below soc of 80%. 3 years and alternator is till going strong. Chassis battery always full thanks to bim.

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

My "safety net" for continuous high amp charging is my amps adjustable inverter/charger coupled with my 4k generator. Combine that with 25 amps coming from solar and the alternator becomes a second-class citizen. Those components are specifically designed for continuous high amperage output.

And since I'm not a gambler by any stretch, the Li-BIM 225 penalizes the alternator with time-outs so it doesn't get into trouble... but it does add occasional juice.

 

[ducksface]

So
Can we safely say the bim that comes on ma y thor rv is ok to use when charging lithiums?

Other than
1 Marketing
2 Allowing EVEN more amps from the alternators
3 longer time out for a wildly stupid amount of time

What protective benefit does the 225(i have one) vs the stock bim have?
Is it somehow going to do anything to your lithiums or alternators this stock bim vs lithium bim thing?

 

[Beau388]

So
Can we safely say the bim that comes on ma y thor rv is ok to use when charging lithiums?

Other than
1 Marketing
2 Allowing EVEN more amps from the alternators
3 longer time out for a wildly stupid amount of time

What protective benefit does the 225(i have one) vs the stock bim have?
Is it somehow going to do anything to your lithiums or alternators this stock bim vs lithium bim thing?

Remember, your alternator's voltage regulator comes set to charge a FLA group 65 battery while maintaining a sufficient voltage for the engine and accessories. No were does a FLA deep cycle, AGM or gel figure into the regulator's charging profile. The regulator uses the batteries resistance combined with a voltage at common power distribution point (usually the fuse box) to provide a charging profile.


There are many different voltage regulators available for each type of alternator. In my older cars, I use a Delco 10Si alternator for most engines (10DN and 12Si will also fit). There are still 41 different regulators available for outputs to charge 6, 8, 12, 16 and 18 volt batteries. There are three different field coils and 4 different rotors currently available. These combinations allow for maximum amperage outputs of 35 to 200 amps in the same case.



Several charging profiles are available for each voltage range. For the 12 volt 10Si alternator's internal regulator there is a max regulated voltage of 13.6, 13.9, 14.0, 14.2, 14.4 and 14.8 volts. 14.2 volts is the most common installed by the automobile factory. I used a 13.6 volt regulator on my IH Farmall Super C farm tractor when I upgraded the electrics from 6 to 12 volts


There is no reason you cannot change the charging profile of any common alternator to successfully charge a bank of LFP batteries automatically and a use 12/40/12 charger to keep the FLA/AGM starting battery charged.


The 160 BIM is continuous duty rated at 160 amps. The 225 BIM is an interment duty device which switches off and on the charging of the house battery bank in order to allow the alternator to cool between charging sessions. It is able to handle 225 amps.

 

[ciret7]

Wow, love all the tech, science and real life experience here. I have a 2017 Thor ACE 29.4, F53 chassis, V-10, lead acid chassis and house batteries—it’s too damn cold (-5 wind chill) to go look at exactly what batteries are installed. I would like to start on the upgrade to lithium and maybe solar without getting electrical engineering degree lol. Where do I start? Is there a recommended path? Should I scour this thread and extract all the data and create a path? Any advice and/or suggestions are welcome ��

Thanks,
==>Eric

 

[DavidEM]

Here is a quick summary to get you started:

Replace your existing batteries with a pair of lithiums. Given your climate look for Li batteries with a low temp cutout. A pair of lithium batteries shouldn’t put too much stress on your chassis alternator, but if you install any more consider how to protect it with a DC to DC charger. If you use shorepower to recharge your batteries you need to upgrade your converter/charger to a Li capable one.

For solar decide how much power you will need and how many panels will fit. Install them with L shaped brackets, Eternabond and self leveling Dicor sealant.

Tie the panel’s cables together with MC4 connectors in parallel and then run a single heavy cable, at least 8 gauge down the fridge vent and then to a location near the batteries where you will install a MPPT solar controller sized to take the current. Then run an output cable to the batteries with a fuse near them sized to pass the current but not too big to protect the cable.

Consider the foregoing as just an outline and research topics that you don’t understand.

David

 

[MCP-THOR]

Wow, love all the tech, science and real life experience here. I have a 2017 Thor ACE 29.4, F53 chassis, V-10, lead acid chassis and house batteries—it’s too damn cold (-5 wind chill) to go look at exactly what batteries are installed. I would like to start on the upgrade to lithium and maybe solar without getting electrical engineering degree lol. Where do I start? Is there a recommended path? Should I scour this thread and extract all the data and create a path? Any advice and/or suggestions are welcome ��

Thanks,
==>Eric

You may want to check out exploristlife.com and their YouTube channel. Lots of educational content and videos related to outfitting and upgrading power and solar systems. Of course there is the usual offer to buy related stuff but the info is very thorough.

 

[ducksface]

As David said,
But added;
You only need to upgrade your charger if you want 10years until the lithiums degrade to 80% of rating.
If you can get by with 8 years No charger change is needed.

 

[ciret7]

Thank you David MCP & duck

 

[PreCambrian]

I have been reading these posts on lithium batteries with interest because I knew that one day it would affect me. Well I just went out to Big Sur and my OEM VRLA batteries are basically dead, barely makes it through one night. I was just going to replace them with lead acid batteries but the LFP batteries are actually cheaper than the reasonable quality lead acid batteries. I have decided upon

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CYT7K2MZ/ref=ewc_pr_img_2?smid=ARUKXJLE7BDB9&th=1

partly because of this review from a guy that I trust (DIY Solar) who tears apart and tests batteries.

https://youtu.be/2WmQ0XXmg_A?si=E_BkLMnbx07yu8m1

I am going to take @16ACE27 advice and just start with the batteries but I am also going to change the board in my power center to lithium using the following

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0D795VY6Y/ref=ewc_pr_img_3?smid=A3M776O8ST78K2&th=1

because I have a WF-8955SPEC.

I will check the output of my alternator before and after the switching of the batteries. I have a few questions:

1) The batteries that I linked above are available with heating. I rarely get below freezing and I have never camped below 15 degrees so I don't think that it is worth it. It never freezes where I live. Should I consider the self heating batteries for an extra $50 each (including shipping which for some reason is free for the non-self heating batteries).

2) Is the DC to DC charger better for protecting the alternator than the BIM-225? I have a stock alternator on my Ford E350 chassis. Right now I have a Trombetta and also (I assume a BIRD). I can't find the BIRD but I do see the Trombetta.

3) If I use a DC to DC charger it doesn't seem to me that I will be able to charge my chassis battery from the coach battery/converter/solar/generator. Is that correct?

4) My solar charger is selectable for battery type. I don't know why they didn't do that for the converter and the BIRD/Trombetta.

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

Skip the heaters... not worth it IF the batteries have low temp charging cutoff in the BMS. You won't need external heating pads either. If you just USE the batteries, the act of discharging creates enough internal heat to keep them operable well below freezing.

 

[DavidEM]

That looks like a really good deal. As noted above don’t bother with battery heating. The cutoff will protect them from freezing.

You may not need anything such as a DC2DC charger to protect your chassis alternator from being overloaded. Some have reported that 200 Ahs of Li is no problem.

But to be sure, buy or borrow a non contact, IR thermometer gun. Run your new batteries down below 50%. Then start the chassis engine and watch the alternator case temp with the gun for at least 15 minutes. If the case temp stays below 225 F you are ok.

David

 

[16ACE27]

I agree - no heaters.

LiTime have gained a good reputation but those are the same batteries with a different label as the $99 "Black Friday" sale:

And the two I purchased for $136 each:

BTW, when I tested those two batteries, I got 109 AH from one and 110 AH from the other.

 

[PreCambrian]

I noticed the Oases Energy on Amazon and figured it was a relabel. I did not see the Bluetooth connectivity which I like since you can monitor different aspects of the battery including the charge rate, cell equalization, turn battery on/off, etc. Plus it is a bunch more numbers to look at!

A couple of other thoughts came to mind. The battery description states that they aren't starting batteries. I was wondering if anyone has started 1) Their generator (I have an Onan QG 4000) and 2) Their RV using the emergency start button (I have a Ford E350 with V8 gasoline engine).