Best Lithium Values based on Capacity, Size & BMS Features

[Chateau_Nomad]

The open ground is coming from the AC side, not DC. Look on the inverter for a dedicated ground post.

The AC (120v) wiring should go directly to your house main panel. I don't remember if your inverter has integrated charger... if so it should have pass through, which acts like a transfer switch. Just depends on your setup.

The point is that your open ground is coming from the inverter not being grounded to the motorhome.

Edit... Big blue is bleeding heavily... It's a Texas barbecue, and Wolverine is the main course!

 

[dkoldman]

The open ground is coming from the AC side, not DC. Look on the inverter for a dedicated ground post.

The AC (120v) wiring should go directly to your house main panel. I don't remember if your inverter has integrated charger... if so it should have pass through, which acts like a transfer switch. Just depends on your setup.

The point is that your open ground is coming from the inverter not being grounded to the motorhome.

Edit... Big blue is bleeding heavily... It's a Texas barbecue, and Wolverine is the main course!

Your statement in BOLD is my problem. I don't the AC side is a factor. My pass through is a simple plug in. When this test is over, I will unplug so as to eliminate AC 100% from the equation. I need to focus on making the inverter work standalone without the pass thru to eliminate the open ground.

 

[16ACE27]

The open ground is coming from the AC side, not DC. Look on the inverter for a dedicated ground post.

The AC (120v) wiring should go directly to your house main panel. I don't remember if your inverter has integrated charger... if so it should have pass through, which acts like a transfer switch. Just depends on your setup.

The point is that your open ground is coming from the inverter not being grounded to the motorhome.

Edit... Big blue is bleeding heavily... It's a Texas barbecue, and Wolverine is the main course!

Your statement in BOLD is my problem. I don't the AC side is a factor. My pass through is a simple plug in. When this test is over, I will unplug so as to eliminate AC 100% from the equation. I need to focus on making the inverter work standalone without the pass thru to eliminate the open ground.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you using the new inverter just like the old inverter, without an ATS, and just swapping plugs into receptacles?

The case ground is just a protection in case anything inside shorts to the case.

The inverter itself, as an AC power source should have the ground and neutral bonded (just like a generator). Yours, apparently, does not.

 

[dkoldman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you using the new inverter just like the old inverter, without an ATS, and just swapping plugs into receptacles?

The case ground is just a protection in case anything inside shorts to the case.

The inverter itself, as an AC power source should have the ground and neutral bonded (just like a generator). Yours, apparently, does not.

I am using same Magnum Dimensions ATS Pass Thru, it simply plugs into one of the Inverter's 3 available receptacles.

Yes the smaller green wire ( ground) is simply for case.

There are / were only two OEM battery cables, black and red and they are connected to back of Inverter. That is the power source. Not sure what could be issue with the ground.

I may have to take inverter out, and plug to a battery on the bench to see if I still get the open ground. That would suggest an issue with my Cheapo China Made 2200 watt Inverter.

 

[dkoldman]

Generator just started at 5:15 PM CDT

It started due to Start Voltage being being set at 12.5vdc

That means it was 15 minutes away from starting anyway to run 2 hours to Prefill Before Quiet Time starts at 7:30 PM CDT

The effect may be the same due to timing. Meaning right now it would run indefinitely until it hits 13.3vdc and shut off, because it started due to low voltage. However since Quiet Time starts at 7:30 PM, it will cut off regardless of voltage. If it were NOT in Quiet time mode it would run as long as it takes to get to 13.3vdc which is User Setting and 70% full.

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

Generator just started at 5:15 PM CDT

It started due to Start Voltage being being set at 12.5vdc

That means it was 15 minutes away from starting anyway to run 2 hours to Prefill Before Quiet Time starts at 7:30 PM CDT

The effect may be the same due to timing. Meaning right now it would run indefinitely until it hits 13.3vdc and shut off, because it started due to low voltage. However since Quiet Time starts at 7:30 PM, it will cut off regardless of voltage. If it were NOT in Quiet time mode it would run as long as it takes to get to 13.3vdc which is User Setting and 70% full.

How many amps are going into the battery during generator charging? If your SOC percent display was accurate, you could easily calculate how long it takes to reach cutoff voltage. Of course you must account for outgoing amps while charging, unless you shut everything off. BUT... that wouldn't give you a realistic "real world" result.

 

[dkoldman]

How many amps are going into the battery during generator charging? If your SOC percent display was accurate, you could easily calculate how long it takes to reach cutoff voltage. Of course you must account for outgoing amps while charging, unless you shut everything off. BUT... that wouldn't give you a realistic "real world" result.

My converter is 45amps. SOC Display is not very accurate. I will just let it run until it shuts down, wait 30 minutes or so and then see what the display says.

In the past I never bother with what the actual capacity was when it stopped before Quiet Time. Remember the genny runny right now in the past has only been intended to let genny run some while on a trip.

In real world, I would never run Kitchen fridge of inverter for 7 1/2 hours. In some cases we may not even use the outdoor kitchen. Same for Maxx fans. I only use Maxx fans to draw cooler air from outside through RV. It is very hot today.

 

[dkoldman]

Ludcradis Extreme Load Test Concludes

So the AGS shutdown the genny right at 7:30 PM CDT as expected. I waited 1 hour with everything off to get a reading from the NewtiPower Battery Display.

SOC = 84% and 13.3vdc

Conclusion: I can't safely run the Onan Algorithm based on bars to calculate when to stop/start for Lithium. By User Defining 13.4vdc I ensure that if I am doing anything to go from 13.6vdc down to 13.2vdc, I will get the desired 2 hours per day run from genny and ensure it will NEVER run from 7:30PM to 8:00AM no matter where I may be.

I also conclude that on a good number of days I will see where I will not drop below 13.3vdc; so if I want to top off or just run genny for the day, I can manually start and then set in Auto Quiet Time; so it will cut off at 7:30PM no matter the voltage.

The take on all of this is knowing that the AGS when activated will never allow voltage to drop below 12.5vdc. For my AGMs that was a little over 50%; for Lithium that is around 14%, but the capacity is rapidly dropping at that point; so it is peace of mind knowing the AGS will do for me versus trying to catch and manually start the genny if I am that low.

 

[16ACE27]

I am using same Magnum Dimensions ATS Pass Thru, it simply plugs into one of the Inverter's 3 available receptacles.

Yes the smaller green wire ( ground) is simply for case.

There are / were only two OEM battery cables, black and red and they are connected to back of Inverter. That is the power source. Not sure what could be issue with the ground.

I may have to take inverter out, and plug to a battery on the bench to see if I still get the open ground. That would suggest an issue with my Cheapo China Made 2200 watt Inverter.

OK, so you are using an external ATS - got it.
And test plug straight into the inverter shows open ground - that's definitely an issue in the inverter which may be able to be overcome with a simple bonding plug in another inverter receptacle.

So with all the guesstimating I assume you did not install a shunt based battery monitor in your upgrades? You really can't rely on the internal display for capacity status.

 

[dkoldman]

OK, so you are using an external ATS - got it.
And test plug straight into the inverter shows open ground - that's definitely an issue in the inverter which may be able to be overcome with a simple bonding plug in another inverter receptacle.

So with all the guesstimating I assume you did not install a shunt based battery monitor in your upgrades? You really can't rely on the internal display for capacity status.

No I didn't install a Shunt, because I didn't think I would need. I am slowly learning what it is and the value. I will normally not be that precise, but I have to know directionally what I can do with the new tools that I have using EC-30 vs the AGM. My plan is if I ever start adding more pieces is to go with all Victron Energy components so I may grow my footprint and maybe one day get the Cerbo GX. It may be a while because today has been otherwise costly.

1. My Outdoor Insignia Fridge is no longer cooling. Last I used was a few months back. I went ahead and installed a Galanz that we had sitting around. It should hold serve until we get time to shop around for another one.

2. The Samsung TV died. I took it apart and didn't seen any obvious failures. I found where I could buy new power supply board and new main board for $40. But I have no guarantee it would power up. I bought a new Samsung just like we had from Best Buy. It only lasted 4 years. The OEM Insignia only made it 6 months.

3. I took both VMax tanks to OReily's for load tests and both batteries failed. Watching what the NewtiPower did today, I am not surprised, and glad I moved up the purchase and install to Lithium.


Also, I do have a bonding plug for my portable generator, I will try it tomorrow and see what it does. I will also ask Yitranics to see if they even know about the open ground? They didn't know that 120vac is current USA standard.

 

[Bob Nodine]

Grounds are one of the most misunderstood things is electrical engineering. There are many types of grounds. I have seen very bad things happen in a 3 phase power system where the electrical center of the 3 phases is not tied to building ground.

Have also seen problems in logic circuits where the designer did not pay close attention to the grounding system.

I suggest you turn all the power off and disconnect from shore power. Then take an ohmmeter and measure between the ground on the outlet of the inverter and the ground pin on the shore power plug. The difference in resistance should be extremely small. If not then do what ACE suggested.

 

[dkoldman]

Grounds are one of the most misunderstood things is electrical engineering. There are many types of grounds. I have seen very bad things happen in a 3 phase power system where the electrical center of the 3 phases is not tied to building ground.

Have also seen problems in logic circuits where the designer did not pay close attention to the grounding system.

I suggest you turn all the power off and disconnect from shore power. Then take an ohmmeter and measure between the ground on the outlet of the inverter and the ground pin on the shore power plug. The difference in resistance should be extremely small. If not then do what ACE suggested.

Thanks because Grounding is one of known 1000 things of Electrical Engineering that I don't understand.

Not sure I followed your instructions correctly. I took my voltmeter and tried the several of the lowest Ohm setting possible but I only got OL, no activity?

Not sure I follow the relationship between the known ground of shorepower of my house pedestal and the theoretical good float ground on the RV?

Maybe I measured incorrectly for resistance? I have the WaveTek 28T Attached is a visual of one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3872832217...-lEAftpGaTr9CWhLiFel2OdsIfwyggwoaApu0EALw_wcB

 

[dkoldman]

OK, so you are using an external ATS - got it.
And test plug straight into the inverter shows open ground - that's definitely an issue in the inverter which may be able to be overcome with a simple bonding plug in another inverter receptacle.

So with all the guesstimating I assume you did not install a shunt based battery monitor in your upgrades? You really can't rely on the internal display for capacity status.

So this morning I plugged in my Neutral Ground plug from portable generator. I got mixed results. See pictures to follow better.

I have 4 receptacles on Inverter
I unplugged the male plug from the ATS Pass Thru so as to not impact results
If you think in terms of pairs, I have 2 receptacles plates.
When I plugged the bonding plug into one plate it's corresponding female receptacle works, but the other two plugs on the other plate shows new error HOT /NEUTRAL REVERSED (Red & Yellow lit up)

When I changed to do the same to the other plates I get the same error.

So if this makes sense, it is as if I need two bonding plugs one for each bank(pair)?

What I didn't do or try? Take the one bonding plug and plug into an unused socket inside the RV, plug the ATS pass thru back into Inverter and then check? I know enough about Electrical Engineering that guessing don't work... at least on all the tests that I took :whistling:

So in summary I see below options.

1. As Is - Leave all 4 sockets with Open Ground
2. Correct one socket plate with bonding plug and get one correct receptacle, but Hot / Neutral Error on the other 2 receptacles

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

Brother-in-law has 600Ah lithium and 1k watts solar. He went all Victron with inverter, solar charge controller etc. and has Cerbo GX. He dropped a lot more cash than I did on components, plus he didn't do self install.

I copied his system on a smaller scale and substituted components... His MultiPlus 2k was almost twice as much as my Sungoldpower 3k. After you research awhile you'll discover most of the world's electronic components come out of "copy cat" factories in ShenZhen China. Sungoldpower is basically an upgraded copy of Aims line of inverters.

As these companies get better at what they do, the products greatly improve. Your inverter is likely an example of that. They're probably upgrading the voltage and grounding at this very moment.

As you upgrade your motorhome power system you'll discover you need more robust cabling, DC bus, fusing etc... which adds up to a lot more $$$ and install time than you originally anticipate. BUT it's not always wise to take unnecessary shortcuts on a power system you depend heavily on in your motorhome.

 

[16ACE27]

So this morning I plugged in my Neutral Ground plug from portable generator. I got mixed results. See pictures to follow better.

I have 4 receptacles on Inverter
I unplugged the male plug from the ATS Pass Thru so as to not impact results
If you think in terms of pairs, I have 2 receptacles plates.
When I plugged the bonding plug into one plate it's corresponding female receptacle works, but the other two plugs on the other plate shows new error HOT /NEUTRAL REVERSED (Red & Yellow lit up)

When I changed to do the same to the other plates I get the same error.

So if this makes sense, it is as if I need two bonding plugs one for each bank(pair)?

What I didn't do or try? Take the one bonding plug and plug into an unused socket inside the RV, plug the ATS pass thru back into Inverter and then check? I know enough about Electrical Engineering that guessing don't work... at least on all the tests that I took :whistling:

So in summary I see below options.

1. As Is - Leave all 4 sockets with Open Ground
2. Correct one socket plate with bonding plug and get one correct receptacle, but Hot / Neutral Error on the other 2 receptacles

OK, STOP the guessing. Contact the inverter manufacturer to resolve the inverter issue. You may have an inverter with two "hot legs" at 60 VAC each and inserting the bonding plug is horting one of those hot legs to ground. The opposite "bank" is wired backwards to the bonded/shorted bank and hence the reverse polarity reading on your light tester. See this video.

Open ground result on an inverter is not a unique result:

inverter with open ground - Google Search

 

[dkoldman]

OK, STOP the guessing. Contact the inverter manufacturer to resolve the inverter issue. You may have an inverter with two "hot legs" at 60 VAC each and inserting the bonding plug is shorting one of those hot legs to ground. The opposite "bank" is wired backwards to the bonded/shorted bank and hence the reverse polarity reading on your light tester. See this video.

Open ground result on an inverter is not a unique result:

https://www.google.com/search?q=inverter+with+open+ground&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I am moving the topic of the issue with the Yitranic Inverter's Open Ground to my thread created for when my CSW Inverter was damaged and required replacing. When I get updates from China related to the same, I will post it there.

https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f8/csw-inverter-e03-error-code-37353-4.html#post423658

 

[dkoldman]

Brother-in-law has 600Ah lithium and 1k watts solar. He went all Victron with inverter, solar charge controller etc. and has Cerbo GX. He dropped a lot more cash than I did on components, plus he didn't do self install.

I copied his system on a smaller scale and substituted components... His MultiPlus 2k was almost twice as much as my Sungoldpower 3k. After you research awhile you'll discover most of the world's electronic components come out of "copy cat" factories in ShenZhen China. Sungoldpower is basically an upgraded copy of Aims line of inverters.

As these companies get better at what they do, the products greatly improve. Your inverter is likely an example of that. They're probably upgrading the voltage and grounding at this very moment.

As you upgrade your motorhome power system you'll discover you need more robust cabling, DC bus, fusing etc... which adds up to a lot more $$$ and install time than you originally anticipate. BUT it's not always wise to take unnecessary shortcuts on a power system you depend heavily on in your motorhome.

I will advise on what happens with the China made Inverter on Inverter replacement thread located here https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f8/csw-inverter-e03-error-code-37353-4.html#post423658

Even though I have a Victron Energy DC to DC Charger, there is gigantic difference between his chosen path and what I may do. In the end state my views to approach ma even be lesser than yours.

I am doing these projects out of necessity, not preference.

My OEM inverter got damaged. It was covered by insurance, I didn't want to file a claim and get another 1000 watt Magnum Dimension. Versus pay $800 to get the 2000 watt Magnum Dimension, I going seeing what the $180 2200 watt system with awesome electronic and remote displays can do. It pushed approximately 250ah yesterday in the heat within 7 1/2 hours.

This thread was created because ironically while testing my new Yitranics Inverter, I noticed my AGMs were NOT putting out what they rated for brand new anymore. Because the price to replace AGMs was still $500 as it was 4 years ago, I wanted to view other option. $500 later I have coach that can run AGM or Lithium in 5 minutes by changing to profiles.

I think you are versed on how I chose DC2DC over Li-BIM, but given I was going to DC2DC the Victron Energy was not on my radar. They have a Orion 12/12/30 and it was not passing any mustard for me plus the cost was too high. I actually bought a Renogy DC2DC, but a funny thing happened. I would learn about Victron's newest DC2DC the Orion XS 12/12/50 that while even more expensive retail, I had one fall in my lap for an Authorized Dealer here in Texas. I had to wait but I got it less than what some are paying for the Orion 30amp and the Renogy 40amp. I sold the Renogy 40ah (never opened) on ebay for more than I paid for it.

To be clear, I don't have any more power projects planned. But if I see a Victron Shunt really cheap I may buy same for Cerbo GX. I do see the value if I expand the system to build off Victron. i.e. if I were going to go Solar, 1st thing I try to find is good low cost Victron MPPT controller and/or a portable solar panels that could additionally work with a Victron controller. Before you get any ideas, I don't need solar. I don't want panels on my roof. It is not happening on this coach. But when panels are small enough, portable enough I would love to have one for that one or two times a year it may have value for how I use.

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

You can get a perfectly functional and quality built shunt with remote display for around $40. Granted not Victron or compatible with Cerbo... but do you REALLY need that for the basic setup you're after?

You'll spend a lot of unnecessary $$$ on fancy Bluetooth "connectivity" which, IMO is frivolous glitz and provides little value.

I get it you have no desire for solar. Looks like you're plugged in more often than not, so solar might be a waste for you.

I recommend making sure the inverter you wind up with is robust and SAFE. Don't know about you, but I don't mess around with electric appliances that have grounding problems... that's dangerous and could kill.

Sounds like you got a steal on that battery... now add a catastrophic fuse and shunt for protection and monitoring accurate SOC. Your charging setup seems sound and capable for your camping/travel style.

Seems like your weak point at this stage is sorting out the inverter. I'd recommend investing in a quality 2k inverter/charger - properly fused - and eliminate all your hassles. Shore power OR generator charges through the inverter/charger. Your Victron DC to DC charger handles charging while mobile using engine alternator. Everything just works.

 

[16ACE27]

You can get a perfectly functional and quality built shunt with remote display for around $40. Granted not Victron or compatible with Cerbo... but do you REALLY need that for the basic setup you're after?

You'll spend a lot of unnecessary $$$ on fancy Bluetooth "connectivity" which, IMO is frivolous glitz and provides little value.

I get it you have no desire for solar. Looks like you're plugged in more often than not, so solar might be a waste for you.

I recommend making sure the inverter you wind up with is robust and SAFE. Don't know about you, but I don't mess around with electric appliances that have grounding problems... that's dangerous and could kill.

Sounds like you got a steal on that battery... now add a catastrophic fuse and shunt for protection and monitoring accurate SOC. Your charging setup seems sound and capable for your camping/travel style.

Seems like your weak point at this stage is sorting out the inverter. I'd recommend investing in a quality 2k inverter/charger - properly fused - and eliminate all your hassles. Shore power OR generator charges through the inverter/charger. Your Victron DC to DC charger handles charging while mobile using engine alternator. Everything just works.

He just bought a new Li compatible converter (as well as his new inverter), so I doubt that's on the menu.

Going from a PSW 2KW - 2.5KW inverter in the $200 range to a 2KW Inverter/Charger in the $500 range would have been a great path to start down, but hard for him to back up at this point.

 

[dkoldman]

He just bought a new Li compatible converter (as well as his new inverter), so I doubt that's on the menu.

Going from a PSW 2KW - 2.5KW inverter in the $200 range to a 2KW Inverter/Charger in the $500 range would have been a great path to start down, but hard for him to back up at this point.

Exactly...

Few things of note in addition to your assessment

#1 The day my 1000watt inverter was damaged, I did not know Inverter / Charger actually existed and I been active on multiple RV Forums. Now my reading comprehension may not be the best, but there are some days I don't drink

#2 I created this thread https://www.thorforums.com/forums/f8/csw-inverter-e03-error-code-37353-4.html#post423658 and no one ever said, hey of you gonna replace that thing try a Inverter / Charger. By contrast, I had everyone and there brother trying to convince me to get a LI-BIM but once I say what a DC2DC could do, it was a no brainer for my applications.

#3 My investment in my 2200 Yitranics inverter would not be deal breaker by itself but I also have brand new Progressive Dynamics Converter. Even if I didn't from what little I know, top install the Inverter / Charger in my coach would fundamentally haver to be an entire rewire No way I would even attempt to do anything like that myself, for what gain?

#4 I subscribe to principal that every man must know and live within his limitation. 4 years ago no way would even though about trying to do what I have done the last few months. I did it myself so I understand EXCATLY what I did, why and how it should work.

My gains.

1. 2200 watt inverter versus 1000
2. Inverter that has electronic display of input, output and power consumption in RV, outside and on portable remote that works in the house.
3. I gain 2 additional 120vac receptacles outside on inverter
4. My new converter was the exact same physical size so it was plug and play, mounting screws used the exact same holes.
5. My new converter allows for FLA, AGM, Lithium, and custom profiles.
6. But truth be told, I only wanted the 2200 watts; so I could pop popcorn if wanted without the genny

I spent $180 to do the above. China Engineers spent about a month with me to have me change my firmware so the output was exactly 120vac. So now I learn of Open Ground issue. Maybe it is not an issue, I just learned it exist. As far as I know my 1000 watt Magnum Dynamics would show open ground as well. Now the possible miswire is a different story. I hope to learn more from Yitranics soon.