First Hybrid Class A Coming From Thor

[Chance-THOR]

Thor announced an extended range hybrid motorhome at Elkhart RV Open House. It appears to be an EV chassis from Harbinger with range extender added.

https://rvbusiness.com/thor-harbinger-collaboration-delivers-first-hybrid-class-a/


The body looks just like a Vegas to me with some modifications. One of most obvious is wider front track requiring fender flares. That actually looks better to me than I would have expected.

Another is the rear aero-based boat tail almost identical to another motorhome from about 10+ years ago if I recall correctly. Thor says motorhome drag is reduced 20%. I’d like to know compared to what? Axis/Vegas or larger Class As? Also noticed no roof air conditioner which makes sense since it shouldn’t be needed if RV is designed right. That reduces drag a little too.

I personally like that the entry door was elevated so that the first step hanging low on Vegas is not there reducing ground clearance. Thor should consider that on all Axis/Vegas even if TV above door has to be modified or relocated.

Lastly, the prototype does not appear to have a slide hidden under the wrap. That makes sense because payload is limited on most EVs and EREVs, and slides add significant weight. Thor has yet to offer an Axis or Vegas floor plan without at least one slide, though in my opinion they should have years ago.
.

 

[ducksface]

Tranquility owners needed something to trade up to.

Some people need that beta testing excitement/trauma in their lives.

Factually
This is a press release to comply with a checkbox on a government grant for Thor and a checkbox on 'future sales commitment' to the stock sellers of the partner.
It is nothing else.

Thor will get more funds released now.
Partner will get investors.

I'm pretty sure, but cannot be completely sure because anything written about the company is like a
FrontPage For Windows 97 template
and says almost, but not exactly, nothing of value. The partner company appears that maybe it hasn't produced anything viable or road driven yet.

Solyndra Circus comes to Garden Grove.

It's flying car investment.
Sometimes when it loses...you win.

I'm pretty sure a modicum of adulting is needed when reading the key words in that release.

Who was that electric car company gm invested in and has been all but scrubbed from the internet? You know, the one who had a rope attached to a gas truck to pull their 'revolutionary test vehicle'.
They had 5 times the preliminary orders ...

 

[RACarvalho-FRF]

Sometimes, pain is the best teacher....

 

[Mark54]

MSRP?
Range is not bad at 150 w/ gas engine range extender. I'd also like to see mpg specs.

 

[Chance-THOR]

For clarity, I could not care less about the powertrain itself as far as source of energy to propel motorhome (not much anyway). If it gets a little better fuel economy that’s a plus, but not a high priority. On long trips like many motorhomes are used for, hybrids don’t add much MPG anyway. Where the real value in a hybrid lies in my opinion, particularly a plug-in type hybrid due to larger battery, is in how chassis capabilities can be used to power the RV House’s electrical.

A hybrid chassis could be a game changer in that all-electric motorhome house, or motorhomes in general, could be so much simpler and more reliable. A lot of stuff added by RV manufacturers from Onan generator, house batteries, various charging systems, etc. all go away because they become redundant. And typical PHEV battery capacity could easily power RV air conditioner, fridge, etc. all day. A hybrid engine-powered generator can charge at 50+ kW, and likely over 100 kW for EREV powertrain, so engine would only need to run minutes, not hours per day.

For me greatest advantages are not about powering motorhome wheels, it’s about an OEM electrical system that is far simpler and more powerful. Hopefully, it would be designed and built to a much higher quality standard by chassis manufacturer as well.

We have been moving in this direction for years but very slowly and with questionable designs from RV manufacturers. We could use a system like Ford’s F-150 hybrid with Pro Power Onboard, except with at least 20 kWh battery.

 

[ducksface]

I too don't give a rats patoot about wheel power.
I could easily and relatively inexpensively add a leaf or tesla or any other battery from any year wreck I choose to do all other electrical needs.

There's enough room under the axis or on the rear bumper(stood up vertically).
Double it over and it goes in the closet. Split it and it goes under the beds.

Honestly,
We're only a couple of thousand and a couple of bright college automotive students away from a week long project.

I've considered it but I just don't need it...yet... nor do I need to pay the EXORBITANT rates to charge at a fast charger. (Look that up.)
Of course I can charge from my generator and alternator if I have 30 or so hours.
But
of course I can tailor the cheap lithiums 24series(ish) to my exact want instead of dealing with 800v.


My numbers might be off
But
Isn't
14kw equal to 140 100w solar panels?
That's how many sqft of panels?

What's a 350kw ultra fast chargers(unicorn stuff)time to charge vs that thors battery?

This fluff press release requires border line
'I believe Guardians of the Galaxy is a documentary'
Level of suspending reality.

Lightning f150's are lot-anchors they can't sell.

 

[RACarvalho-FRF]

while a big battery and all electric (except propulsion) seems attractive, battery technology is really far away in the future, if ever.

A Motorhome propane tank contains a lot of energy which the equivalent in battery would require a lot of space, eat a lot of payload, cost a lot and be way more complicated than a steel tank with some cooper pipes.

 

[Jimbo56]

That payload increase caught my imagination. Axis/Vegas don’t have a ton of payload capacity to begin with. I had a Buick Lacrosse hybrid. The battery took up almost the entire trunk. Had to add several hundred pounds. And 10 years was the life of the battery. $2500 to replace. Got rid of it after 8 years. I know GM hybrid design was different, but it added a lot of weight.

 

[RACarvalho-FRF]

That payload increase caught my imagination. Axis/Vegas don’t have a ton of payload capacity to begin with. I had a Buick Lacrosse hybrid. The battery took up almost the entire trunk. Had to add several hundred pounds. And 10 years was the life of the battery. $2500 to replace. Got rid of it after 8 years. I know GM hybrid design was different, but it added a lot of weight.

Like they say, the devil is in the details.

Very low loads, like led lights, small motors, etc can be fed with even AAA batteries but when you come to heavy/continuous/life related (like an RV furnace) applications, it is a completely different ball game.

THAT is the reason for the different chemistry and battery configuration that does affect power density.

While in a small car cylinder cells are somewhat ok, in heavy applications, like an RV furnace or truck, for example, they have to move to a pouch style which in turn increase weight and volume.

The point is: The technology is not ready for prime time.

Our current systems to store energy are extremely efficient:
Its a plastic or steel container that is very cheap and can hold an enormous (compared to LiIon) amount of energy and until batteries can get close to that, Electrification of heavy power hungry applications is just a theoretical exercise.

Energy storage For comparison:
Tesla Model S battery capacity: 100 Kwh
MH Gasoline tank (80 Gallons): 2700 Kwh
MH Diesel tank (100 gallons): 4000 Kwh
MH Propane tank (88 lbs): 545 Kwh

So the smallest energy container in a Motorhome holds more than 5 times the model S battery.

5 model S batteries weight 6000 lbs.

That is 50% more weight than my MH payload capacity (~4000lbs)....

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

If energy production were based on NEED and not an arbitrary "cost", we would have had efficient transportation YEARS ago, and our electric "grid" wouldn't be the laughing stock it is today. Case in point: Salmonella causes egg prices to skyrocket. And non-thinking masses accept that as "normal" and "necessary".

 

[RACarvalho-FRF]

If energy production were based on NEED and not an arbitrary "cost", we would have had efficient transportation YEARS ago, and our electric "grid" wouldn't be the laughing stock it is today. Case in point: Salmonella causes egg prices to skyrocket. And non-thinking masses accept that as "normal" and "necessary".

We do have efficient transportation today.

That is the reason we use gasoline and diesel...

 

[Chance-THOR]

while a big battery and all electric (except propulsion) seems attractive, battery technology is really far away in the future, if ever.

A Motorhome propane tank contains a lot of energy which the equivalent in battery would require a lot of space, eat a lot of payload, cost a lot and be way more complicated than a steel tank with some cooper pipes.

Option to switch from absorption to compressor refrigerators (first residential and then 12V), and also diesel/gasoline space and water heaters, have reduced need for propane considerably. Many motorhomes provide induction cooktop and eliminate propane altogether.

All-electric motorhome house designs in various sizes are already available. Like compressor refrigerators, they will become more popular over time, especially as prices drop. Greater battery capacity with much faster charging is really more about replacing Onan-style generators than replacing propane in my opinion.

Some campers will still prefer propane for cooking, especially outdoor grills etc., and the trend for that seems to be towards use of portable tanks. A couple of 20-pound tanks can support a lot of cooking, and refilled/exchanged just about anywhere.

For clarity, future hybrid motorhomes will have gasoline or diesel engines, so fuel source will already be onboard regardless.

 

[Chance-THOR]

That payload increase caught my imagination. Axis/Vegas don’t have a ton of payload capacity to begin with. I had a Buick Lacrosse hybrid. The battery took up almost the entire trunk. Had to add several hundred pounds. And 10 years was the life of the battery. $2500 to replace. Got rid of it after 8 years. I know GM hybrid design was different, but it added a lot of weight.

Jimbo, you may have not noticed, but that Extended Range EV prototype is a Vegas body mounted on a different chassis with much higher GVWR than standard Ford E-450 chassis. I’d guess payload is questionable anyway, but we shouldn’t confuse with a regular Vegas.

 

[RACarvalho-FRF]

For clarity, future hybrid motorhomes will have gasoline or diesel engines, so fuel source will already be onboard regardless.

As quoted above, the benefit of Hybrids is in stop and go traffic and not on highway situation.
Since most of Motorhomes engine use is on highway, hybrid really doesn't make sense even if they can make the miracle of producing a hybrid drivetrain that cost the same as the ICE one.

All companies involved on transportation have to "do something" on electrification to please big brother and get those free grant$$$... And that is probably why Thor is doing this...

Being propane or electric, the point is cost and benefit...

12V fridges, electric ranges, firefly controls, etc are becoming the norm because they are cheaper than the legacy tech but that is not the case with propulsion and energy storage/generation.

For perspective:
Solar + LiIon batteries are so expensive and offer no advantage compared to legacy so that is the reason they where not able to displace an extremely expensive and more maintenance prone Onan generator....

 

[Chance-THOR]

As quoted above, the benefit of Hybrids is in stop and go traffic and not on highway situation.
Since most of Motorhomes engine use is on highway, hybrid really doesn't make sense even if they can make the miracle of producing a hybrid drivetrain that cost the same as the ICE one.

All companies involved on transportation have to "do something" on electrification to please big brother and get those free grant$$$... And that is probably why Thor is doing this...

Being propane or electric, the point is cost and benefit...

12V fridges, electric ranges, firefly controls, etc are becoming the norm because they are cheaper than the legacy tech but that is not the case with propulsion and energy storage/generation.

For perspective:
Solar + LiIon batteries are so expensive and offer no advantage compared to legacy so that is the reason they where not able to displace an extremely expensive and more maintenance prone Onan generator....

Ford is rumored to be working on hybrid or EREV Super Duty, so we will see if that trickles down to motorhome chassis. We are years from that though, except maybe for van campers since Ford could introduce a hybrid Transit relatively quick.

The Ford F-150 PowerBoost Hybrid with ProPower Onboard electric generation is the kind of system I think will be commercially viable first for RVs, except with larger battery to make it a PHEV (plug-in hybrid). PowerBoost is fairly affordable as an option, and adding +/- 20 kWh of battery for RV use won’t cost that much at present LFP prices.

DIY guys building their own campers rarely add generators because it’s cheaper to add more lithium battery capacity to meet their needs. Plus generator noise and exhaust is seen as a drawback worth some cost to eliminate. It’s not all about achieving lowest cost since RVs are a luxury to start with.

 

[ducksface]

Can we just get to the punchline here?

They do this for the government grant money and no other reason.

They all do it for the grant money.

They all know there isn't an ounce of worthwhile in it.

They all know ford loses $100k(ish) on every electric vehicle they sell.

They all know it takes a welfare check (tax credit) to interest anyone normal and not 100% downtown or close proximity suburban in one of these fairy tales.

If you get a chance to lockstep with those who invent locksteps...please step right in.
Repeat the narrative until thinkers are just sick of it.

It is conceptually interesting on the same level as a
Trunk Monkey.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wqsBegQIGRAF&usg=AOvVaw2_jycfAFIMuamscBfU-nDA

 

[ghnl]

It is conceptually interesting on the same level as a
Trunk Monkey.

But if truly an option, many would pay extra for a Trunk Monkey.

 

[Chance-THOR]

Discussion is about “HYBRIDS” and not BEVs (Battery Electric Vehicles).

 

[ducksface]

If cows could fly we'd wear wide brimmed hats.

If truly viable only a fool would say no...just as fools now are trying to say no to fossil fuel.
A lack of reasoning and a lack of ability to do anything except believe things spoken often whether those things are true or not.
Repetitive does not mean true.



It
Is
Not
Reality

A
BEV
is an rv with an engine that can't pull wolf creek pass.
That's all it is. We all know that's all it is.

You're promoting talking about rv fairytale.
Let's just add wings to an ace and get it all over with.
Bev and electric is, in base form, the same class of conversation as wings on an ace.

Please see
Turbine car.
The advantages were obvious
But yet....

Please see
Conservation of energy.
A gas engine cannot charge to a point where the gas engine is passed as the supplying source.

You'll have to add in
Brake charging(preemptive erasure of THIS argument)
And
Subtract the weight disadvantages(you know of this and the energy it wastes)
And you still get;
A load of bull roar.

 

[Chance-THOR]

A 2-minute video with a little more information, revealing what Thor must be considering a viable product in future, if nothing else.

Video mentions 140 kWh battery with 150 miles of EV range, and total of 500 miles of combined range. Roughly 1 kWh per mile seems believable and in right ball park for a motorhome that size. Also shows why all-electric MH is out of the question at present. Even if buyers could afford 500 kWh of batteries to get +/- 500 miles of driving range, it would take over 2 hours connected to a supercharger.

With lower battery cost and weight we have already, 500 kWh is probably not as bad as getting buyers to charge for 2 hours daily. That seems a bigger issue to me than cost. And campgrounds do not have anywhere the electrical capacity to charge them overnight; not to mention 40 cents per mile is as much or more than gasoline today for a Vegas-size motorhome.