First Hybrid Class A Coming From Thor

[Chateau_Nomad]

Like they say, the devil is in the details.

Very low loads, like led lights, small motors, etc can be fed with even AAA batteries but when you come to heavy/continuous/life related (like an RV furnace) applications, it is a completely different ball game.

THAT is the reason for the different chemistry and battery configuration that does affect power density.

While in a small car cylinder cells are somewhat ok, in heavy applications, like an RV furnace or truck, for example, they have to move to a pouch style which in turn increase weight and volume.

The point is: The technology is not ready for prime time.

Our current systems to store energy are extremely efficient:
Its a plastic or steel container that is very cheap and can hold an enormous (compared to LiIon) amount of energy and until batteries can get close to that, Electrification of heavy power hungry applications is just a theoretical exercise.

Energy storage For comparison:
Tesla Model S battery capacity: 100 Kwh
MH Gasoline tank (80 Gallons): 2700 Kwh
MH Diesel tank (100 gallons): 4000 Kwh
MH Propane tank (88 lbs): 545 Kwh

So the smallest energy container in a Motorhome holds more than 5 times the model S battery.

5 model S batteries weight 6000 lbs.

That is 50% more weight than my MH payload capacity (~4000lbs)....

Efficiency...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency#:~:text=Modern%20gasoline%20engines%20have%20a,used%20to%20power%20a%20car.

VS:

https://www.pcmag.com/news/report-tesla-model-sx-upgrading-to-more-efficient-electric-motors#:~:text=As%20Electrek%20reports%2C%20both%20the,an%20efficiency%20of%2093%20percent.

Now... get politicians and Wall Street out of the mix and let innovation take over.

 

[Chance-THOR]

Efficiency...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eng...n gasoline engines have a,used to power a car.

VS:

https://www.pcmag.com/news/report-t...reports, both the,an efficiency of 93 percent.

Now... get politicians and Wall Street out of the mix and let innovation take over.

I doubt most people or RV buyers actually care about engine or electric-motor energy efficiency per se. People are mostly interested in “cost” efficiency, and in my opinion focus on things like gasoline miles per gallon or BEV miles per kWh. Obviously energy efficiency affects those numbers but average people don’t care about details, just results that affect their costs.

Similarly, normal people don’t care how energy is stored or used in an RV, just that they can cook, have hot water, and stay at comfortable temperature. It’s the stuff that affects them directly that matters IMO, not the design and engineering behind the scenes.

Those who don’t use propane for cooking probably prefer a single-fuel RV for convenience so it’s one less thing to fill, monitor, maintain, operate, etc. My home, as example, has natural gas but only used for water and space heat. Everything else is electric. Same can now apply to RVs except gasoline used for water and space heat. I think we will see propane go away on more future RVs due to the innovation of diesel and gasoline heaters (unless proven unreliable or some other issue).

Anyway, if energy efficiency itself was that important to buyers, companies like Thor would provide more innovative choices with greater fuel economy, but they don’t because we are not willing to buy them. The EREV boat tail design that lowers drag and improves fuel economy was introduced years ago but didn’t catch on, hence abandoned. On the other hand, manufacturers have been forced to offer greater numbers of smaller RVs which are more energy efficient, though energy efficiency is not the only reason the market has demanded them. They generally also cost less, and can go to more places.

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

I doubt most people or RV buyers actually care about engine or electric-motor energy efficiency per se. People are mostly interested in “cost” efficiency, and in my opinion focus on things like gasoline miles per gallon or BEV miles per kWh. Obviously energy efficiency affects those numbers but average people don’t care about details, just results that affect their costs.

Similarly, normal people don’t care how energy is stored or used in an RV, just that they can cook, have hot water, and stay at comfortable temperature. It’s the stuff that affects them directly that matters IMO, not the design and engineering behind the scenes.

Those who don’t use propane for cooking probably prefer a single-fuel RV for convenience so it’s one less thing to fill, monitor, maintain, operate, etc. My home, as example, has natural gas but only used for water and space heat. Everything else is electric. Same can now apply to RVs except gasoline used for water and space heat. I think we will see propane go away on more future RVs due to the innovation of diesel and gasoline heaters (unless proven unreliable or some other issue).

Anyway, if energy efficiency itself was that important to buyers, companies like Thor would provide more innovative choices with greater fuel economy, but they don’t because we are not willing to buy them. The EREV boat tail design that lowers drag and improves fuel economy was introduced years ago but didn’t catch on, hence abandoned. On the other hand, manufacturers have been forced to offer greater numbers of smaller RVs which are more energy efficient, though energy efficiency is not the only reason the market has demanded them. They generally also cost less, and can go to more places.

Price is an arbitrary figure which rarely reflects the cost to produce. Price is what the market will pay... but often skewed by artificially induced factors.

Motorhome "fuel economy" with gasoline/diesel engines will not significantly improve - basic physics. ICE has the same inherent drawback as the incandescent light bulb... significant heat energy wasted.

Incandescent lights were replaced by LED technology. Electric motors could EASILY power motorhomes... case in point... diesel/electric locomotives. It's NOT the motor, but rather availability/method of stored energy to operate the motors.

Eventually the "it will never work" mindset will fade... just as Henry Ford silenced the "horse n buggy forever" crowd. Maybe not in my lifetime, but it WILL happen. Magical things have been "invented" in the last 50 years... many in much shorter time.

 

[dswhalen]

Polymer solid state batteries are close

LG has figured out how to mass produce polymer solid state batteries and they are being placed in super expensive cars starting in a few months. The claim is that the energy is stored on circuit boards that are stacked inside a container about the size of a soda can. The claims are 1/3 the weight, no rare earth minerals, and they will charge 100kwh to 100% in 10 minutes and have a range of 6 miles per KWH, or 600 miles per charge. Most EV's get 3MPKWH's. Both Samsung and LG are in a race to come to market with this tech, and these can be made to form fit into any shape along with a pouch technology that would prevent any battery fires. Some very smart people.

I tried to attach a link to some articles about this but the forum won't let me. Just google LG Solid State Battery and you will learn a lot about this. I'm not an earth muffin, enviro wacko, but do like the power, cost and performance of EV's. I have a KIA EV9.

 

[16ACE27]

Well, Google knows about "LG Chem develops material capable of suppressing thermal runaway in batteries"
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/10...-of-suppressing-thermal-runaway-in-batteries/

and "LG Energy Solution is also developing dry electrode technology for its next-generation and lithium-ion batteries."
https://www.thomasnet.com/insights/lg-energy-battery-technology/

and MG introducing their SSB as early as next year:
https://www.techradar.com/vehicle-t...e-batteries-will-arrive-as-early-as-next-year

But not what you're talking about on that Google search for "LG Solid State Battery".

And links to article are easily added with a simple cut-n-paste of the URL.

 

[RACarvalho1]

Factorial do have Daimler people in their investor/board director list but their website is very fishy, no really good info on their technology.

For heavy duty applications, apart from weight and cost, C rate is key which also require infrastructure that can handle it.
A 50amp outlet will not cut it.

Considering the difference in efficiency and NOT considering energy for anything else, including heating and cooling(ACs), a motorhome will need something between 900kWh(gas) and 1300kWh of battery capacity to have the same range ICE MHs have today.
Assuming you want to charge this in 15 min, that is an energy transfer rate between 3600 kWh and 5200 kWh...

If I'm not wrong, the fastest charger today is 350kWh which even if doubled in the next 10 years would still require at least 5 hours to charge a battery bank like that....
And again, this is w/o considering heating or cooling....

Just for reference, two 13.5K BTU ACs running consume 2.5kW/h....

And that is the reason they are talking about Hydrogen, fuel cell, etc for heavy duty, because what MAY make sense in that application is a REEV (range extender electric vehicle), where you have something (a generator, fuel cell, etc) producing energy on board ....

Obviously, you will need NASA kind of budget to operate a MH (or truck) like that...

 

[Chance-THOR]

The Thor Extended Range Hybrid Motorhome received a lot of attention beyond RV world according to RV Business.

The best article with lots of new information and detailed pictures is from Motor Trend. The generator is at the back powered by a naturally aspirated 4-cylinder gas engine, and includes 40-gallon fuel tank. Boondocking in this RV would be so easy.


https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/thor-harbinger-hybrid-electric-class-a-rv-prototype-drive-review/

.

 

[ducksface]

The best lie they can come up with is beyond Ridiculous.
How far down from Ridiculous is the actual truth?


I have taught my cow to fly.

Ok, it's really only short distances.
Ok, it's really only if I hurl it off the barn roof....
Yes, the equipment to get it on the roof was horribly expensive.
You're probably right. No one logical will buy my flying cow after I do a REAL LIFE demonstration.

Tell me how my cow story is different than the rv story.

 

[RACarvalho1]

The Thor Extended Range Hybrid Motorhome received a lot of attention .....

REEV technology is nothing new, in fact is almost as old as ICE and have being in use in ships, trains, submarines, etc for decades.

So the point is:
Why this technology have not migrated to on highway applications 60 years ago when the technology to produce ICE was way more expensive than today???

The response is:
Because it doesn't make sense in this application, period.
It didn't make sense then and still doesn't make sense.

And that is the reason we need authoritarian level of Government "pressure" over the society and billions of free gov. $ to corporations in order for people to even consider it....

The damage to the economy and humanity progress that this authoritarian attitude is causing is incalculable.

 

[RACarvalho1]

If you think changing your MH engine oil is a pain, wait until you have to get into the coach and open a door in the floor just to fill the engine with oil....
Obviously who put this together really have no clue how a MH operate and/or is built...

 

[Chance-THOR]

REEV technology is nothing new, in fact is almost as old as ICE and have being in use in ships, trains, submarines, etc for decades.

So the point is:
Why this technology have not migrated to on highway applications 60 years ago when the technology to produce ICE was way more expensive than today???

The response is:
Because it doesn't make sense in this application, period.
It didn't make sense then and still doesn't make sense.

And that is the reason we need authoritarian level of Government "pressure" over the society and billions of free gov. $ to corporations in order for people to even consider it....

The damage to the economy and humanity progress that this authoritarian attitude is causing is incalculable.

Why do you care if this thing makes sense or not to some potential buyers? It certainly doesn’t make sense for my type of use, but I can easily see that for campers who boondock for extended periods within a day’s drive from home “could” love what an EREV like this offers. It’s not for me but I won’t criticize the entire motorhome as impractical for everyone. The concept has potential for some; just not me. Doesn’t mean it won’t be purchased by some next year if Thor brings it to market at a price that is not ridiculous.

 

[ducksface]

Because it's ridiculous.
It's ridiculous for the reasons said in this post
It is, per you, only partially not ridiculous to you.

 

[Chance-THOR]

If you think changing your MH engine oil is a pain, wait until you have to get into the coach and open a door in the floor just to fill the engine with oil....
Obviously who put this together really have no clue how a MH operate and/or is built...

Great point. I don’t like design of having to fill oil from inside motorhome either, but that’s not a new problem. I also don’t like 40 gallons of fuel right off the rear bumper in case of accident.

Cool thing is that range extender that small could be located outboard of main chassis much like an Onan. Reminds me of a commercial diesel bus my dad drove as a young man that had an auxiliary 4-cylinder gasoline engine to power the air conditioner, and also powered a generator (much before alternators were used) while stopped at bus stations.

 

[Chance-THOR]

Because it's ridiculous.
It's ridiculous for the reasons said in this post
It is, per you, only partially not ridiculous to you.

Then just don’t buy it. Problem solved.

For me there are some things about most RVs I find ridiculous, and as stupid as can be, but I don’t care because no one is forcing me to buy one. It’s really that simple. It’s not like Thor asked anyone here for opinions or approval.

 

[ducksface]

Actually...some of the reasonable among us have been asked.


When it changes from horse crap to horse riding...I'll climb aboard.
But
It's really hard to build a rideable horse from a pile of horsecrap.

 

[Chance-THOR]

Have to start somewhere, and often technology takes time to develop. Wright Brothers didn’t sell First Class tickets to London if I recall correctly. Commercial aviation took time.

Discussion reminds me of years ago when many members here dug in against lithium batteries. Now it’s no big deal, just took years to understand, improve products, and cost to drop. Similar will eventually happen with these types of different RVs.

I’m happy letting rich market innovators pave the way for now with these. I prefer a PHEV if done right because it makes much more sense for my present needs. It’s a similar idea just not quite as extreme. Regardless, I wish them luck if it means improving future products in any way.

 

[RACarvalho1]

Why do you care if this thing makes sense or not to some potential buyers?

Honestly I admire and I understand the VALUE that early adopters bring to society by paying more to have the latest tech.

That being said, the EV scam is not in that category.
For the sake of space, I'll limit the list of damage that the EV scam brought to society so far to only 3 items that are easy to see (there is way more):
1 - All ICE cars had the price jacked up, that includes used ones.
2 - Gasoline and Diesel had the price inflated
3 - Contributed greatly to Gov. overspending leading to Gov. debt and inflation.

The bottom line is MISERY.
That is what the EV scam have brought to society so far.
The single mom that have to work two jobs to keep things rolling had her life made much more worst and we should not support ANY "initiative" that makes the poor miserable and middle class poor.

Social Security is broke but DOE goes around the industry with billions to spend at any company that is willing to put their engineering to work on projects that everyone knows AT THE START are stupid/don't work.

SO while I cherished the people that paid $50K for a 80" TV 10 years ago so that would speed up the implementation of the technology, I really despise the current EV scam because all the damage it is bringing to the Society, mainly the poor people.

My granddad had a store early in 20th century and used to deliver goods using a horse and buggy.
When he was able to buy a car, now he could deliver way more products way faster which substantially increased his sales and because the (high) cost of the car was amortized in many more deliveries, the transportation cost reduced and therefore opportunity to reduce the price of the goods sold.... AND the price of the horse was not increased.... THIS is advancement and progress, not the authoritarian/banana republic scam that the EV initiative is.

We are fortunate that we can afford Motorhomes and traveling, we are even considering moving to a diesel pusher BUT, no personal "progress" will be worth if the society disintegrate and now because I can afford a motorhome I'll be a target of robbery, violence, kidnaping, etc...

Believe me, I saw that happen outside the US and it is ugly, even for those that can afford...

 

[ducksface]

Since horses have been brought up twice

Look up
One million horses vs one million cars

You'll hopefully not be surprised.

 

[MLP-THOR]

A 2-minute video with a little more information, revealing what Thor must be considering a viable product in future, if nothing else.

Video mentions 140 kWh battery with 150 miles of EV range, and total of 500 miles of combined range. Roughly 1 kWh per mile seems believable and in right ball park for a motorhome that size. Also shows why all-electric MH is out of the question at present. Even if buyers could afford 500 kWh of batteries to get +/- 500 miles of driving range, it would take over 2 hours connected to a supercharger.

With lower battery cost and weight we have already, 500 kWh is probably not as bad as getting buyers to charge for 2 hours daily. That seems a bigger issue to me than cost. And campgrounds do not have anywhere the electrical capacity to charge them overnight; not to mention 40 cents per mile is as much or more than gasoline today for a Vegas-size motorhome.

Ok. Up to 500 miles of range. Really! Cost of replacement parts?? I take a trunk monkey over this. If you get one, you are their first set of "Test Monkeys".

 

[rman-THOR]

My 2010 Prius is still going strong! And im seeing many 2nd generation Prius still on the road.