Gen auto-start on a gasoline coach

[blw2]

I was just glancing at a recent add for a Class C for sale here on the forum. Nice looking coach...I was just rubbernecking, not in the market.

Anyway, it's a very different floor plan but essentially a newer version of my very long class C econoline-based MH.
It has a genny autostart gizmo and that caught my eye.
I'm of course very aware that the larger diesel coaches often have such a thing but I don't think I've ever seen a reference to a coach like mine having one

I'm wondering how well they work.
My genny is very persnickety...requiring a very long prime cycle...even longer when it's hot outside. It can take a few tries to start, and often errors out when trying so I have to clear the fault, prime a little more, and then retry...etc... it takes some fussing

so I can't imagine an autostart working very well.

I'm not looking to add it, just wondering....

 

[DavidEM]

It seems to be a “feature” of Onan generators that it takes a lot of priming and then lots of cranking to start. I prime mine for about 20 second and it takes 5-10 seconds of cranking to start. If the Honda inverter generators took that long, they wouldn’t sell many.

My 2021 Axis has the auto start, but I dont use it. One reason I don’t is the long prime and start times. It will restart quickly if started within a few hours of running though.

David

 

[blw2]

does your autostart have a settable prime duration?
and how long does it try to crank before it gives up?

 

[ducksface]

I have an autostart.
It's never activated itself.
My batteries are adequate.

Some of them hook to the ac and are temperature actuated.
We just leave the ac and generator running if we leave the rv to go in a store or museum.

 

[dkoldman]

I am a self professed AGS fanatic, I had a chuckle with Onan yesterday as I was relaying what I acknowledge are the prevailing views on this site with regard to AGS & Onan.

A few years back on this forum we had a long discussion about the same topic because I pondered why I never have to prime, and why my AGS works every time. Few things I remember that we concluded to, and I am just rambling thoughts.

1. The need for prime may be a function of location of gas tank, gas line and frequency to which you last use the genny
2. When AGS does start, it may be due to an auto prime that a user may not knowing is happening in the background. I have the Prime button and I have used it just to see how it works, but I have never needed it to start (Its been 5 years now)

As far as usage goes, the only time we manually start our genny is on the highway and we need popcorn or my wife need to use microwave, or if I am just wanting to exercise the coach just to run 15 minutes or so.

Truth be told, just as easy as we push one button to put the AGS in AUTO mode, we could have manually started, but we let the AGS dictate when the Genny should be running. It has saved my but a few times when I may have left something on draining the batteries.

It is all user configurable, but right now if our House batteries hit 12.5vdc the AGS will start up and run. Onan has an algorithm that calculates when the batteries are fully charged to know when to shut off, or I could tell it to shut off at some specified voltage.

If your AGS permits ( we have Onan EC-30) you can connect it via a wire to one or both of your AC units thermostats. When the Thermostats calls the AC compressor to turn on. It will also call the AGS who in turn will start the genny if it is not already running. With power the ACs run and the genny will stay on until the AC does another call saying to shut off compressors.

I hear some people say it does not always work, but I think it does. i.e. if your ACs were to turn off but genny stays on, it is likely due to minimum run time setup in the AGS, the ACs(compressors) also have minimum run times. When you driving on a hot day this feature is really nice because you don't have to worry about getting too hot or too cold. It would be annoying to me to have to get up to turn genny on or to leave it running the full time.

The other advantage is that it auto manages quiet time for us. i.e. it knows that at 8:00 PM we do not want the genny to run, so it is calculating voltage to autostart before quiet time to ensure the batteries are fully charged before night. Typically it may come on at 6:00PM and turn off at 8:00PM, it will repeat the same thing the next day

 

[dkoldman]

I have an autostart.
It's never activated itself.
My batteries are adequate.

Some of them hook to the ac and are temperature actuated.
We just leave the ac and generator running if we leave the rv to go in a store or museum.

I guess it is true that all AGS system are not equal or the same. Even the EC-30 is something that Onan is trying to replace. They released that EC-AGS+ and found out that not all customers wanted to do away with their EC-30 because it is/was one way or the other. They told me yesterday, that I can now wire the system so both the EC-30 and the wireless functions can work with my phone. I got other priorities right trying to get an inverter installed

 

[ducksface]

It's just never come on because of how we travel.
Once you get your lithium conversion completed yours may never turn on again.

 

[dkoldman]

It's just never come on because of how we travel.
Once you get your lithium conversion completed yours may never turn on again.

Lithium is still in the future, I got a lot of work to get there. My plan is to made all of the mods required over time and ensure it all works with my AGMs and then one day I will find a good deal on Lithium and change profiles.

But let assume that I did have Lithium today with respect to my AGS & Genny.

My assumption is that all I would have is 200ah so effective 180 ah vs today I have 125ah so yes I will certainly go longer because my AGS will not know to turn the genny on until the Lithium batteries are down to 14% SOC (another reason for DC to DC for me) because if I was that low and had to drive off

But on the AC calls to AGS, that would not change, we will still use the exact same way. What I will truly miss with my AGS & Lithium, and it was the reason why I was talking to Onan yesterday, I would prefer the AGS could kick in around 40% SOC for Lithium when in Auto mode. But I will live with 14% ( I have too because so sooner or later I will have to get Lithium batteries, my AGMs have a limited life.)

 

[tplydon110]

Autostart

I was just glancing at a recent add for a Class C for sale here on the forum. Nice looking coach...I was just rubbernecking, not in the market.

Anyway, it's a very different floor plan but essentially a newer version of my very long class C econoline-based MH.
It has a genny autostart gizmo and that caught my eye.
I'm of course very aware that the larger diesel coaches often have such a thing but I don't think I've ever seen a reference to a coach like mine having one

I'm wondering how well they work.
My genny is very persnickety...requiring a very long prime cycle...even longer when it's hot outside. It can take a few tries to start, and often errors out when trying so I have to clear the fault, prime a little more, and then retry...etc... it takes some fussing

so I can't imagine an autostart working very well.

I'm not looking to add it, just wondering....

I have a class A that has the autostart capability but never program it after a friend relayed a tale of his parked at lot he owned and it kicking on and running for a couple days and draining the tank of all the fuel.
Have you checked air, fuel filters lately on your gen set?

 

[CactusJuice]

I bought the EC-AGS+ around a year ago. I was all excited that I would be able to leave my dogs without worry when we were off visiting things. But I found it problematic.

There is an in house temp sensor that communicates with the control electronics. That all works great except that it short cycles. The genny comes on, the place cools down quickly, the genny turns off. Temp goes up a degree or so and the genny fires up ---- you get the picture. It has time delay to prevent excessive cycling but its like 6 minutes or something, so it is start, stop, start, stop. I just think that is very hard on the genny starter. So I pretty much quit using it. It would be nice if one could set the temp rise desired before the genset fires up.

I haven't even tried it with voltage. I have knife blade disconnects on my chassis and house batts and they hold sufficient voltage for weeks.

Anyway, my recommendation if is you have one, enjoy it. If not, don't buy one.

Note: The EC-AGS+ locks out when in motion so you can't use it in place of a dash generator switch.

 

[dkoldman]

I have a class A that has the autostart capability but never program it after a friend relayed a tale of his parked at lot he owned and it kicking on and running for a couple days and draining the tank of all the fuel.
Have you checked air, fuel filters lately on your gen set?

Did your friend say it was programmed wrong, or is he claiming it just randomly came on?

My guess is that the only way I know that could logically happen would be if he had bad batteries that would not hold a charge. Which if true the AGS did exactly what it was suppose to have done. You are not alone with not wanting to use the AGS, but I don't know how we could survive in our RV without it. it is the most important gadget we own in the RV. But if not programmed properly I can see why it may be a hassle.

 

[dkoldman]

I bought the EC-AGS+ around a year ago. I was all excited that I would be able to leave my dogs without worry when we were off visiting things. But I found it problematic.

There is an in house temp sensor that communicates with the control electronics. That all works great except that it short cycles. The genny comes on, the place cools down quickly, the genny turns off. Temp goes up a degree or so and the genny fires up ---- you get the picture. It has time delay to prevent excessive cycling but its like 6 minutes or something, so it is start, stop, start, stop. I just think that is very hard on the genny starter. So I pretty much quit using it. It would be nice if one could set the temp rise desired before the genset fires up.

I haven't even tried it with voltage. I have knife blade disconnects on my chassis and house batts and they hold sufficient voltage for weeks.

Anyway, my recommendation if is you have one, enjoy it. If not, don't buy one.

Note: The EC-AGS+ locks out when in motion so you can't use it in place of a dash generator switch.

I always wondered how the Onan temp sensors worked with the AGS. We didn't install the optional temp Sensors to our EC-30 AGS. We actually have the EC-30 wired direct to one of the thermostats. So when we travel on the road or simply away the Thermostats are set on temperature desired. When coach temperature drops below Thermostats setting, the thermostats calls and activates the AGS to start. I can adjust my minimum run time of Genny to be whatever I want it to. In my case the cutoff of genny is always due to Thermostat turning the compressor off. With Compressor off there is no need for Genny so it shuts down too. Depending upon how hot it is outside it will warm up inside and the cycle needs to repeat. I have never timed it but let's say 15 minute cycles? But the main point may be missed. We may leave one morning and it is nice and cool and no AC is needed. We still set the AGS to AUTO and thermostat to a driving set point which is usually warmer that at a campsite because we have cabin air on. Regardless we may drive a few hours before the units has to kick on. We like it because it requires no intervention and we do not have t run our AGS full time. Starting / Stopping and Running a AGS is a good thing. It is like some may think they are over watering a tree or shrub, in reality it is almost impossible to do.

With that said Onan has tried to get us to buy the AGS+, thus far we have always refused because it means the EC-30 would have to go

But Onan told me last week they have new release coming out soon and if i wish to buy a 2nd Y cable I can use my EC-30 and the new AGS+. I may do that just to get the bluetooth

 

[CactusJuice]

I always wondered how the Onan temp sensors worked with the AGS. We didn't install the optional temp Sensors to our EC-30 AGS. We actually have the EC-30 wired direct to one of the thermostats. So when we travel on the road or simply away the Thermostats are set on temperature desired. When coach temperature drops below Thermostats setting, the thermostats calls and activates the AGS to start. I can adjust my minimum run time of Genny to be whatever I want it to. In my case the cutoff of genny is always due to Thermostat turning the compressor off. With Compressor off there is no need for Genny so it shuts down too. Depending upon how hot it is outside it will warm up inside and the cycle needs to repeat. I have never timed it but let's say 15 minute cycles? But the main point may be missed. We may leave one morning and it is nice and cool and no AC is needed. We still set the AGS to AUTO and thermostat to a driving set point which is usually warmer that at a campsite because we have cabin air on. Regardless we may drive a few hours before the units has to kick on. We like it because it requires no intervention and we do not have t run our AGS full time. Starting / Stopping and Running a AGS is a good thing. It is like some may think they are over watering a tree or shrub, in reality it is almost impossible to do. Having it controlled by the wall thermostat has the same problem as most thermostats don't allow the user to set a temp differential either (though some do).

With that said Onan has tried to get us to buy the AGS+, thus far we have always refused because it means the EC-30 would have to go

But Onan told me last week they have new release coming out soon and if i wish to buy a 2nd Y cable I can use my EC-30 and the new AGS+. I may do that just to get the bluetooth

I don't think it is the temp sensor that is at issue in my objection but the electronics in the unit. It is preprogammed to react (turn on) if the temp rises only a degree or two. I would rather have it user selectable. I would set it at say 75 and have it turn on at 80. That would mean less cycling and longer run times.

The EC-30 is not an option as it is no longer sold. From your posts about it, it appears to have more flexibility and functionality than the AGS+. The one feature the AGS+ does have that it does not is the phone app interface. But, honestly, that is entirely worthless as it is bluetooth. Get 30 feet away from the rig and there is no communication - not even across a campground. So you really don't get the peace of mind knowing that the rig is staying cool. Now, if it worked with wifi that might be something, but then, one would also have to have wifi in the coach.

 

[dkoldman]

I don't think it is the temp sensor that is at issue in my objection but the electronics in the unit. It is preprogammed to react (turn on) if the temp rises only a degree or two. I would rather have it user selectable. I would set it at say 75 and have it turn on at 80. That would mean less cycling and longer run times.

The EC-30 is not an option as it is no longer sold. From your posts about it, it appears to have more flexibility and functionality than the AGS+. The one feature the AGS+ does have that it does not is the phone app interface. But, honestly, that is entirely worthless as it is bluetooth. Get 30 feet away from the rig and there is no communication - not even across a campground. So you really don't get the peace of mind knowing that the rig is staying cool. Now, if it worked with wifi that might be something, but then, one would also have to have wifi in the coach.

Wow you are confirming what I was thinking and glad I did not go with the marketed AGS+ upgrade. To be honest, I never could get past the fact that you had to use the phone to manually turn ON/OFF. Still not clear about how it works when away from the rig.

Is wiring your unit (AGS+) direct to Thermostat an option? It is silly for Onan to try to do the function of a Thermostat mfg. They have built in algorithms that know how to avoid / prevent the compressor from short cycling. So it is my Thermostat that tells the EC-30 when to Shut ON and OFF (although the OFF is contingent upon other settings within my EC-30 that must equally be satisfied).

I think (IMO) they stopped selling due to the labor required for a proper installation. If it was a OEM install it was a snap, but to do after the fact requires running a harness from the wall all the way to the generator. A special Y cable was also required. Then to go all the way, I installed a receptacle in front of the ATS so I could always read SP. I have a 24vdc Transformer plugged into that receptacle that 24/7 tells the EC-30 if I have SP. In Auto mode the genny will shut down if it senses SP, but the MAIN BENEFIT is... say you are at Campsite on SP; ACs running and you have elderly or pets in RV and then there is a loss of power from campground (it can happen a lot). In my coach, the EC-30 will start up the 5500 instantly. Above poster referenced where someone complained, but this is a scenario where theoretically if you left the campsite for 2 days, and SP was lost for 2 days, the genny would just run and run until you got back, or power was restored, or ran out of gas. To me that is by design, hard to imagine to NOT use the AGS because it does what it is suppose to do.

I will have to read up on the AGS+ as it has been at least 3 years since I last looked at. There are other Controllers out there, I just can't to speak to any of them. I would say that if I was in your situation with no path to a EC-30 (even a preowned one) I would look at options with Victron Energy or maybe Renogy?

 

[CactusJuice]

Wow you are confirming what I was thinking and glad I did not go with the marketed AGS+ upgrade. To be honest, I never could get past the fact that you had to use the phone to manually turn ON/OFF. Still not clear about how it works when away from the rig.

Is wiring your unit (AGS+) direct to Thermostat an option? It is silly for Onan to try to do the function of a Thermostat mfg. They have built in algorithms that know how to avoid / prevent the compressor from short cycling. So it is my Thermostat that tells the EC-30 when to Shut ON and OFF (although the OFF is contingent upon other settings within my EC-30 that must equally be satisfied).

I think (IMO) they stopped selling due to the labor required for a proper installation. If it was a OEM install it was a snap, but to do after the fact requires running a harness from the wall all the way to the generator. A special Y cable was also required. Then to go all the way, I installed a receptacle in front of the ATS so I could always read SP. I have a 24vdc Transformer plugged into that receptacle that 24/7 tells the EC-30 if I have SP. In Auto mode the genny will shut down if it senses SP, but the MAIN BENEFIT is... say you are at Campsite on SP; ACs running and you have elderly or pets in RV and then there is a loss of power from campground (it can happen a lot). In my coach, the EC-30 will start up the 5500 instantly. Above poster referenced where someone complained, but this is a scenario where theoretically if you left the campsite for 2 days, and SP was lost for 2 days, the genny would just run and run until you got back, or power was restored, or ran out of gas. To me that is by design, hard to imagine to NOT use the AGS because it does what it is suppose to do.

I will have to read up on the AGS+ as it has been at least 3 years since I last looked at. There are other Controllers out there, I just can't to speak to any of them. I would say that if I was in your situation with no path to a EC-30 (even a preowned one) I would look at options with Victron Energy or maybe Renogy?

I don't see any advantage in wiring it to the thermostat. In fact, that is the major advantage of the AGS+ - you don't need to do that. It can be installed by a Neanderthal in about a half hour. The temp sensor that comes with it performs that function and works well. In fact you can have up to three of them. So for example, in the bedroom(s). If any one location gets hot, the gen will start.

My Coleman thermostat short cycles as well once it reaches temp. That's just a function of a 1 ton AC in a tiny space. On grid I don't care. But I am concerned about the frequent start/stop cycles of the generator - it is arcing the contacts in the transfer switch every time as well - and wish they would provide for a greater than 1 or 2 degree rise before turning it back on. I have never seen a wall thermostat that gives much adjustment of that either.

Bottom line on OP though. If you need to keep pups cool they can be great even with the limitations. If you have critical things on an inverter they are probably a necessity.

 

[dkoldman]

Maybe it is not clear what you are saying is causing your genny to start and then stop relative to temperature?

Thermostats come with those sensors too, I can connect up multiple thermostats. I was just stating that an option is allowing the thermostat to control, and that point was only to mitigate what seems to be your concern with genny cycling stop start? At the end of the day, the ACs cool. When you have your setup, the genny and ACs may not be in sync. Your genny sensor can start the genny, but the compressor is tied to thermostat. That may contribute to cycling.

Yes the EC-30 is involved with wiring to the generator for the unit, but connecting to thermostat is simple that I did myself as they are almost side by side.

We use this feature mainly when driving. The setup is like at home, but imagine when the compressor turned off, it also cut the power to the house that yu do not need. Vice versa when thermostat says it is warm. Your concern with cycling caught my attention because we don't see that, I don't see much feedback on the AGS+ and a lot users simply don't use their AGS systems anymore, especially the Onan.

 

[CactusJuice]

Maybe it is not clear what you are saying is causing your genny to start and then stop relative to temperature?

Thermostats come with those sensors too, I can connect up multiple thermostats. I was just stating that an option is allowing the thermostat to control, and that point was only to mitigate what seems to be your concern with genny cycling stop start? At the end of the day, the ACs cool. When you have your setup, the genny and ACs may not be in sync. Your genny sensor can start the genny, but the compressor is tied to thermostat. That may contribute to cycling.

Yes the EC-30 is involved with wiring to the generator for the unit, but connecting to thermostat is simple that I did myself as they are almost side by side.

We use this feature mainly when driving. The setup is like at home, but imagine when the compressor turned off, it also cut the power to the house that yu do not need. Vice versa when thermostat says it is warm. Your concern with cycling caught my attention because we don't see that, I don't see much feedback on the AGS+ and a lot users simply don't use their AGS systems anymore, especially the Onan.

No, it works the same. The temp sensor is exactly like a thermostat but wireless.

Say I set the house thermostat to 75. The sun comes up, the temp rises to 76, the temp sensor sends a "start" signal to the AGS. The AGS fires up, the AC (which is "on" but unpowered) comes on. The temp falls to 74. The temp sensor sends an "off" signal to the genny. It turns off.

5-10 minutes later (l live in the furnace of the southwest) the house temp again is back to 76, so the cycle repeats.

What I want is to set the desired house temp to 75 have the genset fire up and run until it drops to 70-72 then shut down. Or alternatively, set the house temp to 75, but not have the genset turn on until it is 80 and then off at 75.

I don't know what code is in the AGS+ but it seems like it would be possible to give it a wider range over which it cycles.

My home programmable allows me to set it to actuate when temp deviates from the setting by either one or by two degrees. I'd like 5 in my AGS. Is that too much to ask?

 

[dkoldman]

No, it works the same. The temp sensor is exactly like a thermostat but wireless.

Say I set the house thermostat to 75. The sun comes up, the temp rises to 76, the temp sensor sends a "start" signal to the AGS. The AGS fires up, the AC (which is "on" but unpowered) comes on. The temp falls to 74. The temp sensor sends an "off" signal to the genny. It turns off.

5-10 minutes later (l live in the furnace of the southwest) the house temp again is back to 76, so the cycle repeats.

What I want is to set the desired house temp to 75 have the genset fire up and run until it drops to 70-72 then shut down. Or alternatively, set the house temp to 75, but not have the genset turn on until it is 80 and then off at 75.

I don't know what code is in the AGS+ but it seems like it would be possible to give it a wider range over which it cycles.

My home programmable allows me to set it to actuate when temp deviates from the setting by either one or by two degrees. I'd like 5 in my AGS. Is that too much to ask?

The bold is the key point, so you are not using the Thermostat to manage the compressor to to get better cyclng or balance, you are using the Sensor from Onan, but I was stating earlier that Onan system is not going to be as efficient as thermostats controllers that are made just for the purpose you seek. I do follow your point that the premise is the same, but your stated concerns is why I crow about the Thermostat controller. We are in excessive heat all the time and we don't see that cycling. In fact, I had to put one of the lighted receptacle plugs in a an outlet to help let me know when the genny was running while driving.

When it is really hot, setting by a range I would think uncomfortable because 1 degree can make a big difference if it is hot. Normally, I think we have The Thermostat set on about 80 degrees when driving. I believe it the compressor will cut off at 79 but ONLY IF it has run long enough to not do the cycling you are concerned with, like wise it may start back up at 81 but only if it has been off some period of time. A difference is your setup forces the compressor on/off as it is NOT in Auto mode as mine is.

Maybe another difference is that the AGS+ does not have the Adaptive Cycle Management that cones with the EC-30? It is specifically designed to avoid repeated starting and stopping of the generator. It has an algorithm where the EC-30 compares the actual amount of HVAC ON runtime to the HVAC OFF time, based on the ratio it will continue to run to avoid short cycling. Maybe because the AGS+ is not wired directly to the thermostat controller it can't calculate those ration to auto balance for you? The EC-30 can accept Run Request from up to 4 Thermostats. it simply counts the time the 12v is HVAC Run Request is Active on one of the connectors versus when it has 0vdc (Compressor Off)