Inverter "Locked up" Requiring Reset after loss of power

[fourthgear]

I do leave my refrigerator running & its 12VDC , not to mention the other parasitic draws , not sure how that affects charging . I live in Fla. also .

My interest in looking at the software for the Master Volt system is if the Inverter locks out of 120VAC ever again, I can see if something is changed or not following the program , I want to take screen shots or print them out , I in no way wish to change anything .

There has to be a reason the Inverter see's 120vac input & shows it does with the indicator lights that are lit , then why is it locked out of both sources of 120vac , both SP & Inverted .
The whole time mine was acting up , I thought it was the Inverter , but replacing the ATS has worked out just fine & I told them so , the last I was in for the Propane Valve recall .

All that we have talked about here needs further research by me , just so I know what's going on . Its also kinda fun .

 

[robertj1961]

Agree on the fun part...until something doesn't work right and then it drives me nuts until I can get it fixed.

I discovered that my Balmar chemistry setting was "wrong" for the battery type. For some reason they list a LifePo4 battery and further down the list is a Relion LifePo4. No idea what the difference could be. I changed this setting to the Relion setting and the Balmar changed the settings and for some reason my SOC went from 70% to 30% after the system rebooted. I went ahead and charged everything using the 110 volt service and everything worked as it should after making the change. Hoping it continues to work properly but only time will tell. If not going to head to the dealer but avoiding that if at all possible!

I also added a 300 amp "Blue Sea" battery disconnect switch to remove the power from the inverter completely in case the problem happens again and to remove parasitic draw. It will at least be simple to do a "hard reset" with this added switch. Picture is with cover off inverter and secured the switch to make it simple access. I almost purchased a combination surge protector and switch from Amazon but after researching these it appeared to be too "cheap" and didn't want to take the chance. The batteries BMS offer some protection so did not add an additional fuse in line. As a side note, Thor does a horrible job of routing cables using way more than necessary and half the battle is working around the "spaghetti" of wires. Cable ties everywhere that were never trimmed etc.

It is good you have the yellow disconnect switches and won't have to worry about a switch to disconnect but others might want to consider.

 

[robertj1961]

Un-related to the post on the inverter locking up but thought I would post the response I got from Relion technical service regarding a few items on the batteries I was not aware of. Of particular interest was their comments regarding storage and thought you may find interesting since staying connected in storage. I have always stayed connected too, with my previous MH but it did not have Lithium batteries and with no way to disconnect the charger function when plugged in makes it somewhat challenging.

 

[RonRM]

Good stuff...

I you went from 70 to 30 - check the bank capacity setting. I found mine at 100ah, when i have 200ah.

Things that go along with Relion's response...

The single 190W solar is not enough to run the heaters (on it's best day). So, no charging from solar below 32f. No heat, no charge.

The UHG Regulator has an additional temp sensor on the top of one of the batteries. The regulator is programmed NOT to deliver full charge below 0C/32f. What is interesting and needs to be measured; the regulator will not deliver full charge, but it does deliver some lower output (from the balmar 618 manual) - need to determine if that's enough to run the heaters. I read other owners saying that the UHG doesn't charge at low temps. Balmar does not tell us what the current is at low temp, just that it is reduced.

So, with the batteries not accepting charge, needing to warm up, and the UHG not delivering charge below 0c/32f...dead in the water, unless you have a generator or are plugged in.

There is some hope...

The regulator temp, according to the balmar 618 manual, should be set a bit lower than the battery low temp cutoff - that would allow the UHG to deliver charge, heat the batteries and then charge normally -- at lower temps. I plan on setting mine to -10F - but not without adding another device, that can be done on the regulator or with the BT-gateway (see 618 manual).

There is a warning about disconnecting the UHG from a load under charging conditions. If this happens, it can damage stuff on the 12V. There is a new device from balmar that will 'clip' a load dump that can damage the 12v in this condition. This added protection eliminates any issue in the case where the heaters switching off and battery internal charging relay engages, albeit, slowly, looking like the battery disconnected from the alternator.

Storage of the batteries at 50-80% is in line with everyone else. What is somewhat confusing at first read, they don't recommend a temp below 23f for storage. However the batteries will operate down to -4f (discharge). Hmmm...what is that all about. The 23f is the spec where the internal discharge rate is around 3% per month when completely disconnected. You can store these below 23f, they will just internally discharge a bit faster at lower temps. There is some min temp where the electrolyte will freeze and case will crack, not sure where that is...but definitely below -4f.

So far so good, I've just left mine plugged in. Mastervolt limited to 11amp draw, master switch on, fridge off, solar fuse pulled...remained at 100% SOC through -12f temps for a couple of days and below 32f for a couple of weeks. Back in the 40s this week...

ron

 

[robertj1961]

I had my settings reflecting the 200ah batteries which is why I was surprised when the SOC dropped drastically when just changing to the "Relion Lifeo4" setting as opposed to the Lifeo4 but apparently there are differences? Still not enough time in yet to see if that could have contributed to my charger cutting off while charging and with no 110 breaker kicking out etc. For those who may be checking this setting on the Balmar display, I have the bluetooth dongle that makes making these changes much simpler.

One other item worth mentioning, I checked the fuse box to discover two 15 amp fuses missing (not installed by Thor). The two spots empty were for the battery heaters. I went ahead an installed two 15 amp fuses in the slots because figured could do no harm. Not sure why Thor left those empty but doesn't surprise me if another Thor oversite. It is possible these are not needed I suppose if the batteries do the heating themselves but interesting there are slots for battery heaters in the fuse box. Curious if others have these slots "blank" or if there are fuses there?

I am curious why you are pulling the breaker for the solar? I know the solar is very little power but have never done that. I am in Florida (for now) where the solar works about as good as it can.

I also limit the Mastervolt Amp draw to 15 amps when plugged into a 110 but never see more than 60 amps DC going into the batteries anyway when plugged in which is only about 5 amps AC even on "Bulk" phase of charging.

One additional note to the battery disconnect switch "mod" is the battery cable on the inverter has a 1/2" hole requiring it to be drilled out to 3/8 before the terminal would attach to the Blue Sea switch. I also went to NAPA who made the short heavy gauge battery cable needed to attach to the inverter.

Apologies to moderators for this post going different directions but seems simpler to just keep it here.

Robert

 

[RonRM]

That is strange...the balmar display isn't that good. Mine resets, displays weird results...it's all over the place from time to time...Most of the time it seems fine. I am going to add a second shunt, in line with the balmar shunt, with a better monitor. There is one on amazon, with BT for about $80. The geek in me wants a new toy, but I really want to know what's going on with the batteries.

I don't have anything in those fuse locations either. You don't need them, since the heaters are internal to the lt-100 batteries. I would be surprised if there is anything hooked up to the fuse box on those two slots.

I pulled a 20amp fuse on the output of the solar charge controller. In my rig, the fuse was buried by the water drain behind the panel with the 12v disconnect. I bought a 12v DC breaker off amazon, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0983ZS2W...olid=2S6AO6AOJQGCQ&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it I'm going to put this on the input side of the charge controller (between the panels and the controller), to cut off solar. This will make it easier and safer to disco the solar.

I like the disco switch idea, way better than wrenching those connections. Now that it' a bit warmer, I might be able to get under the rig and see what's on the negative side of the batteries. I would like to put a disco on the batteries so I can completely isolate them for storage.

ron

 

[robertj1961]

Makes sense on the battery heater slots. I will probably just leave those fuses in there as "spares" since I already blew the one for the cigarette lighter in the back once using a compressor (my fault).

Agree on the Balmar displaying inaccurate data from time to time as mine has done the same. Will be interested in seeing how the other one does if you go that route.

I took the simple way out on the disconnect switch.

 

[fourthgear]

I guess since I had issues with my Inverter lock out , I'm a little gun shy . I did my normal morning check & since I have been testing shutting off the Inverter , I had no 120VAC in the Coach with SP connected & breaker on , I said ,not again , I started to do the normal reset & said wait a min. , I better check if SP is even getting to the RV & I can say one thing , I like that little blue LED light on the SP plug in , I looked at it & it was not illuminated , went to the Plug in the Garage & bam , I had moved the Compressor the other day & bumped the SP Cord & it pulled it out of the Receptacle enough to not make contact , it looked ok from a glance , till I lifted the cover , my bad LOL. Everything is good , I don't get gun shy about trouble shooting , I have a system I have used for 50+ years & its to check power source first & I didn't follow mob normal procedure , at least at first .

I still have not found any Shunt or Balmar display , I have not looked behind the Microwave , but it seems like an unlikely place to install it , its way out of the way for any 12VDC main positive or negative power cables .

I have discovered that the MasterVolt interface has a brown wire connected to the MV Interface & it looks like a Green one also , I have traced under the RV to the Back of the RV , but haven't found it yet , because I have to remove a Seat top to see where it comes into . Was going to go camping today , but its crazy out there & last min. reservations are hard to get & its New Years weekend & I'm kinda glad nothing worked out where we wanted to , we have plenty of reservations in the Keys & other places in Florida for next year , I do live here & have not seen much of the State .

I have to do more reading up on this equipment , I'm wondering if that Patch Cord is for the same the Balmar display shows & also the LI Battery system .

Not sure how your RV underbelly connections look like , but look at the underside of mine .I have my work cut out for me tracing all this out .

 

[RonRM]

Good catch...My little blue light died, at least there is a green light on the plug. I check it every time I take the dog for a walk, kinda an OCD thing now on a daily basis.

ahhh...the wiring mess. I think they all look like that or worse underneath. I am going to re-do all that when it warms up. I also want to paint all the connections,

I see you are getting some corrosion on terminals and the relay device (pic 5 - black box looking thing).

A little corrosion shouldn't be an issue, as long as everything is tight and gas sealed. If anything is a bit loose, I'd remove/sand/dremel off the lugs, reassemble/tighten it back up and then go over it all with a good automotive insulator paint.

Now I'm wondering if you have a Balmar UGH thingy, since no display/shunt. I'd follow the lead off you second alternator, that has to go back to something that measures it's output (ie. a shunt).

I wish I had your weather...at least it's in the 40's today - woo hoo. That's like a major heat wave for WI this time of year. Better than the -12 for days, last week.

Ron

 

[robertj1961]

Glad you didn't have a real problem and all is working! Agree about camping reservations and one reason we got rid of the Class A and got the van. Much simpler and can camp almost anywhere but to date been more of a travel vehicle than camp vehicle.

Looking at the pictures Fourthgear posted of his display in another post I believe he has a different setup than Ron and I. He has a Mastervolt EasyView 5 display that seems to combine some of the Balmar funtions. I could be wrong about that but mine and many of the Tellaro's have the Mastervolt Smart Remote display which seems to have more limited functions?

Since Ron mentioned changing the Balmar was wondering if this might be a simple "upgrade" for the Tellaro's? I have seen the Mastervolt Easyview5 advertised on Amazon in the $300 range but not sure if it would work using the existing Balmar/Mastervolt SmartRemote wiring.

Yes, the wiring underneath and everywhere is a xxxxxxn mess!

 

[fourthgear]

I agree, two different systems.

 

[RonRM]

Yeah, seems Thor changed the game/parts several times

Starting to collect my fix-it kit of stuff. I'll put up a new post as not to add too much chaos to this one.

 

[Mark54]

Combimaster disconnect, via shunt

Not dangerous? Tell that to the guy that shorted the wrench from the positive terminal to ground and it welded in place drawing maximum current from the battery bank until the batteries overheated and exploded.

That Maservolt technician needs to pull his head out of the lab and into the real world environment.

Yikes. I agree. B+ is not a good idea to remove and have the chance of touching down on chassis.
I added a B- disconnect from the Battery cable to shunt- effectively diconnects the battery from Combimaster, and I use it when winterising or working on the system.

 

[Beau388]

Most of the time, tripping the 12 volt battery circuit breaker supplying power to the inverter and tripping the 120 volt circuit breaker supplying power to the inverter's bypass circuit, in the power center; will force a hard reset if all power is left off for about 24 hours. There is a capacitor powering the memory in the inverter; it takes time for it to discharge completely and erase the inverter's memory. At least that is the way a Xantrex inverter works.

 

[Blkteddy]

How can I reset this from my end

Most of the time, tripping the 12 volt battery circuit breaker supplying power to the inverter and tripping the 120 volt circuit breaker supplying power to the inverter's bypass circuit, in the power center; will force a hard reset if all power is left off for about 24 hours. There is a capacitor powering the memory in the inverter; it takes time for it to discharge completely and erase the inverter's memory. At least that is the way a Xantrex inverter works.

How can I reset it. I have a Thor 19P Sanctuary 4x4 and this is the second time my system locked up. First time was due to it going to 0 in the cold. Now, it was at 3% and my alternator never recharged it. Took it to Camping World and they had my vehicle for a week and didn't touch it. I rather learn to reset it on my own, because I see this happening again.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. My voltage now is 11.49v well below the 12v required. As I told the rep, to charge, you have to but the Combi on either Inverter or Charge only and it still consume some power, which dipped it below the threshold, now the Remote Battery Switch trips, because I think it doesn't have at least 12V, before it wasn't doing that. Also, when I checked the volts when it initially would not charge, it was 13v, again, it drained by me trying to get it to charge. Last time, the CW tech had to hook it to the laptop and reset it. My question is, how can I duplicate what CW did if this happens again.

 

[Campguy21]

I have a generator and not the UHG but have found the simplest solution to reset it was to add a 12 volt battery disconnect switch similar to what is used in the marine industry. The Mastervolt on mine was wired in such a way by Thor there was no way to get power completely off the inverter. Really dumb move by Thor but go figure. 200 a/h lithium systems did not have the yellow reset switches that were installed on the larger 400 a/h and 800 a/h models.

I added a simple battery disconnect to the positive terminal going to the Mastervolt Inverter/charger.

A Mastervolt technician suggested to reset the inverter/charger, power must be removed for a couple of minutes and this was the simplest way to do this.
The only other way is to remove the "positive" cable in to the inverter but don't recommend that because if you do you are holding a "hot" battery cable in your hand.

Mastervolt technician stated to remove the positive and not the negative cable.

 

[Blkteddy]

I have a generator and not the UHG but have found the simplest solution to reset it was to add a 12 volt battery disconnect switch similar to what is used in the marine industry. The Mastervolt on mine was wired in such a way by Thor there was no way to get power completely off the inverter. Really dumb move by Thor but go figure. 200 a/h lithium systems did not have the yellow reset switches that were installed on the larger 400 a/h and 800 a/h models.

I added a simple battery disconnect to the positive terminal going to the Mastervolt Inverter/charger.

A Mastervolt technician suggested to reset the inverter/charger, power must be removed for a couple of minutes and this was the simplest way to do this.
The only other way is to remove the "positive" cable in to the inverter but don't recommend that because if you do you are holding a "hot" battery cable in your hand.

Mastervolt technician stated to remove the positive and not the negative cable.

Thanks, I ended removing the positive and hooked the van up to sure power and it worked. I would look at putting a battery disconnect for the positive side, great comment.

 

[Campguy21]

Thanks, I ended removing the positive and hooked the van up to sure power and it worked. I would look at putting a battery disconnect for the positive side, great comment.

You are welcome and glad that worked out. Thor van has been good for us but unfortunately their quality has much to be desired!
I have had to reset mine just a few times using the switch but much simpler and less stressful than unhooking the positive cable.

 

[fourthgear]

I fixed mine by replacing the Combi master with a Xantrex XC Pro 3000 marine , No issues since install in Sept. 2023 . What a difference .