Question: Is RV Anti-Freeze Required by your RV Mfg's Owners Manual?

[dkoldman]

Are there any RV Make / Models designed in such a way that the RV Mfg calls out in the Owners Manual that the use of Anti-Freeze is the ONLY proper method to prevent the said RV Make / Model from freeze damage?

Note: This is not a question of your preferred method, or why you may use the method that you do; but to learn if there are certain RVs designed in such a way that the RV Mfg specifically states that Anti-Freeze is the only proper method to prepare said RV for freeze temperatures to be expected.

If so; can you provide that Year, Make & Model? A snippet or screenshot of the exact language would be very helpful.

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

Thor has an 8 year old winterization video in their "how to" series.

It give three methods... two of which use antifreeze. HOWEVER... nowhere in the video does it state that it's REQUIRED to inject antifreeze into the freshwater supply lines.

For any method, they first cover draining all tanks and plumbing using gravity... drain valves, low point drains etc.

Then the video suggests using an air compressor (at maximum 55 psi)... IF AVAILABLE to blow out the lines. Then pour antifreeze into all traps including the toilet... REQUIRED.

Without a compressor available, it shows how to draw antifreeze into the supply lines using the water pump suction tube.

The last method they call the "wet method", which involves pouring 4 - 6 gallons of antifreeze into your freshwater gravity fill, then circulation with the water pump. HOWEVER... they stress this method is not recommended for obvious reasons.

My takeaway is they're giving EQUALLY EFFECTIVE methods depending on the equipment you have. They don't seem to favor one over the other, but leave it to PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

https://youtu.be/XkHCkTEwf24?si=LDsH2mo3fHE9Y00v

 

[lwmcguire]

The one place i will always use antifreeze is in the Tuscany due to the large copper coil in the Aqua Hot. Many folks try air and many sell coaches with Leakey expensive to replace Aqua Hots. Just not worth the risk of an 8000 dollar mistake. Many have them replaced and usually shocked at the cost.

In my other winterizing i have found maintaining 40 psig air is necessary if you have a complex system

 

[dkoldman]

Thor has an 8 year old winterization video in their "how to" series.

It give three methods... two of which use antifreeze. HOWEVER... nowhere in the video does it state that it's REQUIRED to inject antifreeze into the freshwater supply lines.

For any method, they first cover draining all tanks and plumbing using gravity... drain valves, low point drains etc.

Then the video suggests using an air compressor (at maximum 55 psi)... IF AVAILABLE to blow out the lines. Then pour antifreeze into all traps including the toilet... REQUIRED.

Without a compressor available, it shows how to draw antifreeze into the supply lines using the water pump suction tube.

The last method they call the "wet method", which involves pouring 4 - 6 gallons of antifreeze into your freshwater gravity fill, then circulation with the water pump. HOWEVER... they stress this method is not recommended for obvious reasons.

My takeaway is they're giving EQUALLY EFFECTIVE methods depending on the equipment you have. They don't seem to favor one over the other, but leave it to PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

https://youtu.be/XkHCkTEwf24?si=LDsH2mo3fHE9Y00v

Great video, but not sure I agree with your statement in Red? Seems to me they favor the drain and air blowout with compressor. They stated that "if you did not have a compressor then use the antifreeze"

But my point was not on the two primary methods that could be a choice for any RV owner, rather does Thor or any RV Mfg have a coach designed in a way that their Owners Manual specifically says the RV Antifreeze must be used to properly winterized supply lines?

My manuals says to use the air blow out method, it list anti freeze as an alternative much like Thor has done.

What I am getting at, or hoping to learn is whether TMC has any coach they designed that do not recommend drain and air blowout method?

Again, not trying to get into a discussion on personal preferences, just what the manuals say. Obviously it may be a point where we learn some don't trust their manuals, but that is a different topic maybe a different thread. With that said, if some have followed the manual and have actually had freeze damage, that I would love to hear. I am sure Thor or any RV Mfg would too.

 

[dkoldman]

The one place i will always use antifreeze is in the Tuscany due to the large copper coil in the Aqua Hot. Many folks try air and many sell coaches with Leakey expensive to replace Aqua Hots. Just not worth the risk of an 8000 dollar mistake. Many have them replaced and usually shocked at the cost.

In my other winterizing i have found maintaining 40 psig air is necessary if you have a complex system

For the purposes of this thread, can you tell us how TMC's manual says to winterize with the Aqua Hot? Or was that an add on? If so, how does the Aqua Hot manual say to winterize itself?

 

[lwmcguire]

For the purposes of this thread, can you tell us how TMC's manual says to winterize with the Aqua Hot? Or was that an add on? If so, how does the Aqua Hot manual say to winterize itself?

All the larger Tuscany coaches (almost all large coaches have Aqua Hots systems) are all electric with the exception of the Aqua Hot heating and hot water systems.

I don't have the manual handy however it states to put the antifreeze in the freshwater tank and then run it through the system. Should anyone want to follow that method peroxide is one of the best ways to get rid of the bittering chemical taste.

Easier for me to just use the hose in the bay and put it on the suction of the pump. It came with a long enough piece of pex so all you have to do is change the valves, be sure you're not on city settings and run until pink in all locations including the washer and fridge. Filter will be bypassed so needs drained and disposed of. Manual directions were very poor as i remember.

 

[dkoldman]

All the larger Tuscany coaches (almost all large coaches have Aqua Hots systems) are all electric with the exception of the Aqua Hot heating and hot water systems.

I don't have the manual handy however it states to put the antifreeze in the freshwater tank and then run it through the system. Should anyone want to follow that method peroxide is one of the best ways to get rid of the bittering chemical taste.

Easier for me to just use the hose in the bay and put it on the suction of the pump. It came with a long enough piece of pex so all you have to do is change the valves, be sure you're not on city settings and run until pink in all locations including the washer and fridge. Filter will be bypassed so needs drained and disposed of. Manual directions were very poor as i remember.

We rented a 40' Fleetwood and a 38' Forest River, I am still trembling. I had no idea about the heat system because we needed ACs and it was a hot mess popping fuses and you name it. If I known what I know now, I should have rented a large TMC Diesel and not had to worry about the quality issues. I think we only got something like 4 mpg. Until now, Aqua Hot was one of those thing like Winegard, I see all the time but skip over the readings because they sound like they are trouble?; so I don't know much about it, but my assumption is I don't think I will ever own one?

So with that said can I conclude...
The Manual for Tuscany says to use Antifreeze for Aqua Hot system including the freshwater to feed the fresh water supply lines, and if so; if you use anti freeze and only blowout, you will be violating the manual and if you had freeze damage from blowout only, you would have no recourse in a Tuscany?

 

[yukongrant]

We don't have an Aqua Hot water heater. Our is a Girard. The owner's manual says:

Winterization
Freezing of the water heater and its plumbing components will result in severe damage not covered by warranty. For this reason it is advisable to follow the recommendations below if the unit is to be stored in a freezing environment or for long periods of time. At the start of the winter season or before traveling to a location where freezing conditions are likely, the unit must be winterized. The very small amount of water present in the heat exchanger DOES NOT require the installation of a bypass kit. Winterization can be accomplished using one of the two common methods of winterization used for RV water systems:
• Compressed Air method: Drain all water from the system opening one tap at a time and using compressed air to purge all remaining water.
• Anti-freeze method: Follow the recommendations of the Recreational Vehicle manufacturer and fill the system with a non-toxic anti-freeze. Make sure that the anti-freeze flows from each tap to complete the process.​

 

[ducksface]

advisable to follow the recommendations

 

[yukongrant]

advisable to follow the recommendations

We live in the Yukon - so it gets COLD. I always blow the lines out first - including the saniflush system. Then, because I need to pour the antifreeze down the traps in any event, I just run it through the lines first. I then drain all the lines and blow them out one last time. Over 25 years doing this with both tank and tankless hot water and no problems. Is it overkill? Probably. But for all the time it takes, might as well.

 

[EA37TS]

My manual, 2020 Entegra Accolade states the preferred method to winterize is to use RV Antifreeze.

 

[dkoldman]

My manual, 2020 Entegra Accolade states the preferred method to winterize is to use RV Antifreeze.

The question or the quest is are they saying in the manual that RV AntiFreeze is the only way to properly winterized that 2020 Entegra Accolade?

Does the manual outline the steps for air blow out method? If so; they are saying both methods will work; unless you suggest the manual is saying they are providing the steps for the air blow out method, but it may or may not work, so use at your own risk etc.?

My point is the manual will provide proper procedures for winterizing. An RV Owner that says the prefer the antifreeze is one thing, but to say they prefer it over the blowout as if to say it is safer or less likely to freeze is what I am questioning. The RV Mfgs seem to all agree that air blow out method is safe, no one has proven a manual stating otherwise yet. If the RV Mfgs didn't believe it was safe, I would think they would have warning signs to the effect saying PLEASE Do Not drain, remove and blowout all the water from the water supply lines because freeze damage may occur. You must use AntiFreeze. Think my engine radiator, it say DO NOT USE WATER.

 

[ducksface]

Manuals provide a practical way
Not necessarily the optimum undefeatable way.

The ability of the reader must be considered.
In some cases if you offer even one choice, the reader will fail entirely.
Some need told
Some need directed
Some need a mandate.
Some need threatened(the freeze them and we won't cover them clause)
Some can't follow direction.
Some will scream like a smashed cat at the very mention of them needing to be involved.

I just had this conversation and had to help someone winterize because they are not only unknowledgable of rvs but are pretty much stone cold stupid in general.
We blew out the lines and then add a whopping $6.50 worth of antifreeze.
Blowing it out then adding $6.50 for two gallons
Negated
ONE IS NONE.

No need to not do both.
No need to leave yourself open to failure.

Mine lives in a climate controlled house.
If it needed winterized
I'd do both,
BECAUSE I CAN.

The chances of someone who has never owned an rv writing your manual, based on first hit Google searches due to EXTREME lack of knowledge, as an outside contractor?
Almost 100%.

The old Bob Newhart series.
He did what for a living?

 

[dkoldman]

We don't have an Aqua Hot water heater. Our is a Girard. The owner's manual says:

Winterization
Freezing of the water heater and its plumbing components will result in severe damage not covered by warranty. For this reason it is advisable to follow the recommendations below if the unit is to be stored in a freezing environment or for long periods of time. At the start of the winter season or before traveling to a location where freezing conditions are likely, the unit must be winterized. The very small amount of water present in the heat exchanger DOES NOT require the installation of a bypass kit. Winterization can be accomplished using one of the two common methods of winterization used for RV water systems:
• Compressed Air method: Drain all water from the system opening one tap at a time and using compressed air to purge all remaining water.
• Anti-freeze method: Follow the recommendations of the Recreational Vehicle manufacturer and fill the system with a non-toxic anti-freeze. Make sure that the anti-freeze flows from each tap to complete the process.​

Who can argue winterization techniques against a man from the @Real Yukon.

Both methods when done properly will work. But the premise of some to select or prefer one method over the other because they allege the other may not work is misguided. But what I was expecting to see or read was that some coaches were poorly designed in such a way that normal draining and air blowout could not physically remove an adequate amount of water so the RV Mfg knowing this stated in the manual that Anti Freeze was required and that Air blowout method could NOT be safely used to prevent freezing.

It is still early on the thread, some one may have such an RV model yet.

 

[dkoldman]

Manuals provide a practical way
Not necessarily the optimum undefeatable way.

The ability of the reader must be considered.
In some cases if you offer even one choice, the reader will fail entirely.
Some need told
Some need directed
Some need a mandate.
Some need threatened(the freeze them and we won't cover them clause)
Some can't follow direction.
Some will scream like a smashed cat at the very mention of them needing to be involved.

What's the point of you initiating this thread?

From reading several other related threads with similar topic, some tend to suggest that they use the Anti Freeze because the Air Blowout method may cause freeze damage for their particular coach. I would like to know what does their owners manual say about the same? Maybe they state myths, maybe the do not, but thus far no one has proven that their RV Mfg manual has stated AntiFreeze is the only way to properly winterize the coach.

So it suggest to me that while every RV Owner can choose the method of their choice, but to say one method may result in freeze damage is not proven (yet). But for sure, if I learn of a coach (RV) that can only be winterized with Antifreeze, it will for sure be blacklisted from any future consideration.

I remember the painful days of winterizing my boats, going outside in the freezing cold etc. I can winterize my Yamaha twin engines in about 30 seconds just by starting the engine and thrusting the throttle and shutting it back down. Removing water from an RV should not be that complicated.

 

[ducksface]

Blow out can cause freezing due to blower outer failure to do it correctly.
I don't think we can trust
'I am an engineer and my rv has been in the shop for 6 weeks to get my windshield shades stripped screw fixed'
Guy
To do an adequate blow out job on his own.

Blow out is effective only if the blower outer CAN be effective.
Many can't.

There's no telltale pink to let them know they've succeeded.

 

[dkoldman]

Blow out can cause freezing due to blower outer failure to do it correctly.
I don't think we can trust
'I am an engineer and my rv has been in the shop for 6 weeks to get my direct marketing dongle fixed'
Guy
To do an adequate blow out job on his own.

I submit that the same DIY'er is just as likely to improperly backfill with anti-freeze. In my coach if using the antifreeze; you have to be a master on where all of the winterization valves are, and know when /where to turn to close them off. i.e. draining the heater and then the bypass valves. We have two sets of bypass valves that must be used if using the pink stuff one is where it not easily seen.

Again, the thread was not about which was the preferred method. It was to find out if any RV Mfg made a coach model (RV) that had an owners manual that specifically said the RV Owner must use RV Antifreeze. If not, it is implied that if drained properly following the owners manual, said RV owner need not worry about freeze damage. Incompetence notwithstanding.

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

After reading all of this I think I'll bring my lithium batteries into the house and soak them in a tub of RV antifreeze...

Just to be on the safe side.

 

[dkoldman]

After reading all of this I think I'll bring my lithium batteries into the house and soak them in a tub of RV antifreeze...

Just to be on the safe side.

:rofl2:

I am just getting started. I am getting close to adding having a frozen RV pipe to my bucket list. In Feb 2021 in Dallas we went 8 days, 23 hours, and 23 minutes below freezing. -2F was the coldest 6F was the normal night time low. We had $32,000 water damage to the house and pool. The RV & Boat had zero issues. No question had I not drained the lines, I would have had serious damage in the RV.

This winter I hope to learn what difference I get when I blowout, or don't blowout. I am gonna look really hard to see if I see any water lines that may be inverted where water may stand if I don't blow out. I am sure there is some, but my goal is to measure to see how much. I would take side bets, but thats not allowed on the forum. But I am gonna set the over / under at 24 ounces.

 

[lwmcguire]

We rented a 40' Fleetwood and a 38' Forest River, I am still trembling. I had no idea about the heat system because we needed ACs and it was a hot mess popping fuses and you name it. If I known what I know now, I should have rented a large TMC Diesel and not had to worry about the quality issues. I think we only got something like 4 mpg. Until now, Aqua Hot was one of those thing like Winegard, I see all the time but skip over the readings because they sound like they are trouble?; so I don't know much about it, but my assumption is I don't think I will ever own one?

So with that said can I conclude...
The Manual for Tuscany says to use Antifreeze for Aqua Hot system including the freshwater to feed the fresh water supply lines, and if so; if you use anti freeze and only blowout, you will be violating the manual and if you had freeze damage from blowout only, you would have no recourse in a Tuscany?

Antifreeze winterization is the only option noted as I suspect is the same for all Coaches with Aqua Hot Coils