Sequence Coach battery doesn't charge when engine running

[Jouvence]

Hi
I have a 2022 THOR sequence with 200 A lithium battery and there is only a Battery Isolation Relay (BIR).

My coach battery don’t charge while my engine is running.
1- When I press the emergency switch the BIR work.
2-After some checking, I found that the positive terminal of the BIR coil is powered by both the chassis battery and the coach batteries.
3-So, it's the negative terminal of the BIR coil that controls the BIR. If my emergency switch works, I conclude that the problem lies with the COMBIMASTER.
From this point on, I need help. Could someone help me?
NB: English is not my first language.
LG

 

[PS89]

What exactly is the device you are calling the "BIR"? A photo of it would be ideal.

 

[Jouvence]

 

[16ACE27]

View attachment 1115402

That's the "Trombetta" (name brand) of a BIRD (or IRD)/Trombetta pair.
It is usually the failing part of the pair.
In the RESOURCES section of this Forum are documents on the BIRD and wiring:

The BIRD

Manuals for some of the different BIRDs

www.thorforums.com

 

[Jouvence]

Now I understand, it's more than just a relay, it's like an "intelligent relay".
I will order one and confirm later that everything is correct.
Thank you very much for your quick response, I really appreciate it.
Bonne journée

 

[Jouvence]

I misread the diagram. Where is this bidirectional isolator relay ?

 

[16ACE27]

I misread the diagram. Where is this bidirectional isolator relay ?

The BIRD (or IRD) is usually located in close proximity to the solenoid you have pictured above. In my RV both are in the battery compartment but as I understand your RV the batteries are under the steps. So maybe under the hood? Is that where the solenoid is?

EDIT: Brain Fart
I had it stuck in my head that a Sequence was a B+/C, not a B. Listen to what Mark says.

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

I misread the diagram. Where is this bidirectional isolator relay ?

The Trombetta is the physical relay which works in conjunction with the nearby Intellitec control module - a small rectangular black potted box wired to the Trombetta relay. The controller contains the circuitry which monitors voltage... then sends signals to the Trombetta solenoid.

 

[Jouvence]

Ok I will check this tomorrow.

LG

 

[MCP-THOR]

Hi
I have a 2022 THOR sequence with 200 A lithium battery and there is only a Battery Isolation Relay (BIR).

My coach battery don’t charge while my engine is running.
1- When I press the emergency switch the BIR work.
2-After some checking, I found that the positive terminal of the BIR coil is powered by both the chassis battery and the coach batteries.
3-So, it's the negative terminal of the BIR coil that controls the BIR. If my emergency switch works, I conclude that the problem lies with the COMBIMASTER.
From this point on, I need help. Could someone help me?
NB: English is not my first language.
LG

This may be helpful and hopefully does not confuse the issue (in case your setup is different).

FWIW, my 2023 Tellaro, with LiFePo4 batteries and the under hood generator (2nd alternator) has the trombettta solenoid but it is unrelated to battery charging. It is simply part of the emergency start function. The charging is controlled by the Balmar regulator and 2nd alternator.

Perhaps yours is different. Do you have a generator rather than the 2nd alternator? If so, maybe you do have the traditional BIRD. I am not familiar with that setup other than what I've read about on this forum.

Also, the combimaster inverter/charger really has nothing to do with charging from the house batteries from the engine.

See attached for the schematic of the 2023 layout, at least for mine.

 

[Mark54]

View attachment 1115402

That's the "Trombetta" Solenoid used ONLY for e-start. The two batteries are very different and need different charge voltages.
The chassis battery is a lead-acid 12.6V, and the coach lithiums are 13.6V, so very different chemistry and charge rates.
The Trombetta is just a remote switch to connect coach/ house batteries to Chassis battery for a quick start, activated by switch on dash, left of cluster.
The device can be found by crawling under your RV. (1st pic below)
That's all it is. No charging of chassis battery unless you are driving, via engine's alternator.
The 2022 with 2nd alternator (AKA "UHG" or Under-Hood generator) has no 'bi-directional' charging device AT ALL. So chassis battery is not wired into that at all.
So you have to add your own, or use a trickle charger for periods of 3+ days w/o driving.
My 2022 Tellaro chassis (starter) battery dies in 3-4 days.
In winter, I remove the batteries and use a 2A 'smart' (Noco brand) trickle charger on the jumper posts up front 24/7.
(2nd pic- under bonnet)
Otherwise adding a "BIM-Li 225" would work, but a tech would have to wire it in. Easier for me to just use a separate trickle charger.
Feel free to start conversation with me as you are not far from us in VT.

 

[Jouvence]

1-Yes, after checking, you're right. My Trombetta solenoid is only for emergency starting, and my electrical system is like the picture # 1.
2-I've looked everywhere and can't find any bidirectional isolator relay.
3-I have a generator (no second alternator) and I looked inside and there is no relay.
4-I don't get it the second picture Mark54.

So what controls the charging of the coach batteries by the engine motor? Is there something I didn't understand ?

Thank you all for your help
LG

 

[Mark54]

1-Yes, after checking, you're right. My Trombetta solenoid is only for emergency starting, and my electrical system is like the picture # 1.
2-I've looked everywhere and can't find any bidirectional isolator relay.
3-I have a generator (no second alternator) and I looked inside and there is no relay.
4-I don't get it the second picture Mark54.

So what controls the charging of the coach batteries by the engine motor? Is there something I didn't understand ?

Thank you all for your help
LG

2- The Bi-directional relay would look like Pic below- might have different graphics, but the shape and size is the same- about 5.5" long. (1st pic) My 2021 20AT had one underneath, just not a lithium version. My 2022 20L does not. In my 20A, this device was underneath, just in front of the left (driver's side) rear wheel.

3- The UHG, (2nd alternator) is seen up front just under the bumper. next to the engine- you can see if you get below the bumper on right side. (2nd pic)

4- 2nd pic in prev. post, is as seen under the hood, or bonnet.
Also in your Ram Promaster manual.
My pic shows those connection places on right side looking in the engine bay. ( you can see edge of drivers side headlight at bottom of picture) B+ connection has a small flip-cover to protect it.

The B- (ground) may also have a protective cover on it as well- need to remove to make the connection.

Which floor plan do you have? 20A, 20K, 20J or 20L?

The only way to charge the chassis battery is to drive it.
Plugging into shoreline just won't do it w/o bidirectional charging.

So when it sits for 3-4 days, there is a phantom drain of the battery and can go to low levels, like below 11.3V, which is effectively dead.
Left a long time like that, It will go to an unrecoverable level, and you'll have to replace it.
It lives under the driver's feet- large cover that can be removed if needed.
So without bi-directional charging, it's best to keep a trickle charger on it whenever you park it at home, or even campground if not driven for 3 days...
I use a Noco 2A unit- doesn't need much.

 

[MCP-THOR]

The THOR Class B manual states that the models with the ReLiable (LFP) battery systems have a second alternator. But I expect 2022 was a transition year and they put together a multitude of variations due to either supply chain issues or the world famous pandemic.

Attached is a schematic of a 22 model. It "may" be closer to what your layout is, however it does not show a Trombetta (except for Sprinter models) but does show a BIM. It also does not differentiate whether batteries are AGM or LFP. I don't think they even had Sprinter models of Tellaro/Sequence. The schematic may apply to multiple models but just isn't titled that way.

As Mark alludes to, are we certain there is no 2nd alternator? Do you have a Balmar gauge showing battery readout or only the readout on the BMPro?

 

[Mark54]

If you have Trombetta solenoid, then not likely to have BIM- also likely to have UHG up front too.

I just took some pics of 'under the bonnet' in my 20L Tellaro- I opted to connect to a stud in the back for the B- ground clamp, so I can close the hood for rain and snow here in VT. That front B- post won't let you close the hood if there is a clamp on it.

1st pic- original B- clamp point for the black cable (not being used here)
2nd pic- shows B+ red cable on jumper position, and black clamp wayyyy back on firewall stud
3rd pic- Noco 2A charger nestled in under air scoop
4th pic- overall pic of engine bay
Feel free to ask questions!

 

[Mark54]

The THOR Class B manual states that the models with the ReLiable (LFP) battery systems have a second alternator. But I expect 2022 was a transition year and they put together a multitude of variations due to either supply chain issues or the world famous pandemic.

Attached is a schematic of a 22 model. It "may" be closer to what your layout is, however it does not show a Trombetta (except for Sprinter models) but does show a BIM. It also does not differentiate whether batteries are AGM or LFP. I don't think they even had Sprinter models of Tellaro/Sequence. The schematic may apply to multiple models but just isn't titled that way.

As Mark alludes to, are we certain there is no 2nd alternator? Do you have a Balmar gauge showing battery readout or only the readout on the BMPro?View attachment 1115725

2022 was first year Thor decided to 'try' the UHG- that diagram would have applied to my 2021 20A tho.
No Trombetta in that rig. Def. had the BIM- very loud when plugged in! Big 'clunk' sound for relay inside it.

 

[Jouvence]

Ok, I'll go back and check everything.

It's a sequence 20A and there's a Balmar Gauge showing battery readout.

LG

 

[Chateau_Nomad]

I know yours is a van, but just to clarify... many class C motorhomes use the Trombetta relay in combination with an Intellitec delay module (see link below). This combination DOES IN FACT allow Bi-Directional charging (equalizing) of house and chassis batteries... AND maintains the E-start function. Caveat is that house battery MUST be lead-acid. With LiFePO4 house battery the chassis battery will "steal" power from the low resistance lithium. The original intent was to keep the chassis battery charged for starting... assuming you would charge house battery via generator.

Therefore upgrading to lithium house batteries generally warrants a different strategy, such as a DC-DC charger (bypasses the E-start function) or a Li,-BIM which uses a timing algorithm to connect/disconnect alternator charging.

Eventually LiFePO4 house batteries will become standard and hopefully the RV industry will settle on a standard for keeping ALL batteries charged. In the meantime it's a mixed bag of workarounds.

Isolator Relay Delay – Intellitec Products, LLC

intellitec.com

 

[simidrm]

View attachment 1115402

 

[simidrm]

This is what I replaced the trombetta with and it’s been 3 yrs still working perfectly, after 3 of the trombetta ones failed because they are only like 200amp